The last bit

[emptylooking]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I understand that thought arise, seeing happens, sensations are felt but all this is not happening to “someone” seperate. This illusion of separateness hijacks the experiences and adds filters. When investigated this separateness is not seen but seems to appear and exist without investigation.

What are you looking for at LU? I want to break the last bit of illusion that is stopping from completely breaking the first fetter. Some deep insights and foretastes have happened but the illusion has not completely gone. Want to investigate what is hanging on.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? To help with inquiry and confirm the investigation. Also support and encouragement on the journey. Deluded ways tend to come back and co-opt into inquiry. A guide can help see through the false and point back to the empty looking.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? After 20 years of seeking, realisation occurred that inherently there was no one seperate who was seeking. It’s all appearing to be so. Most days now are spent on investigating, who is walking, who is seeing etc.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Elad]

Hello, my name is Elad and I would be happy to do this exploration with you, if we see that it makes sense. Please read and respond to the following points.

1. During this process we will attend only to your own direct experience. We will not be discussing theories or beliefs or other methods, including from non-duality and etc. I will ask you questions and give exercises and you will look and answer me from your direct experience.

2. The two most important ingredients in this process are your wish to see what is true and your willingness to look deeply at questions, give wholehearted engagement to experiments/exercises presented to you, and report your experience here with 100% honesty.

3. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:


http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


4. For the process to be focused and fruitful, I like to make an agreement that both guide and client (i.e you and me if we do this together) respond on this thread every day, and in the case of special circumstances where we cannot, still touch space here on the thread to say so, the day before or on the day. In the same spirit, I work with people who have the motivation and availability to make this process a primary priority in their life for the duration of the cooperation. If any of this does not fit your life rhythm, style or preferences, please let me know and another guide will work with you.

What may I call you?

Warmly,
Elad

[emptylooking]

This sounds great Elad. Thank you so much. My whole life is dedicated to this. I am all in it. You can call me AJ.

[Elad]

This sounds great Elad. Thank you so much. My whole life is dedicated to this. I am all in it. You can call me AJ.

Hi AJ, great!! So for starters, please tell me as you look to direct experience here and now, do you find anything in it that is different from what you imagine a clear seeing of no separate self is? If yes, what? If no, how is that?

[emptylooking]

Hi Elad

Yes. There is a difference in two ways.

1. Doubt - There is a feeling of discomfort and doubt in the current experience. When inquiry happens into the sense of separateness, it points to a very very subtle thought of "me" in the head region. When attention goes closer to thisthought, the sense disappears and only sensations are left in the body. When inquiry stops then after a period of time, the general sense of "me-ness" and doubt comes back.

2. Expectation - As the clarity is deepening the attention is staying more and more in sensations. But there is an expectation that the mystery will totally flip on its head and the immediateness of all senses will be revealed in one go. This expectations gets converted into a thought which creates a seeming gap that I am at Point A and I need to get to Point B. This is a thought 100% but the direct experience of full and total sensual immersion has not happened yet as well paradoxically.

[Elad]

Hi AJ,

"1. Doubt - There is a feeling of discomfort and doubt in the current experience. When inquiry happens into the sense of separateness, it points to a very very subtle thought of "me" in the head region. When attention goes closer to thisthought, the sense disappears and only sensations are left in the body. When inquiry stops then after a period of time, the general sense of "me-ness" and doubt comes back."

So do I understand you right that yo say that in full mindfulness/attentiveness to what is there, it seen that no self is there, but that this full attentiveness is not there much of the time ?

"2. Expectation - As the clarity is deepening the attention is staying more and more in sensations. But there is an expectation that the mystery will totally flip on its head and the immediateness of all senses will be revealed in one go. This expectations gets converted into a thought which creates a seeming gap that I am at Point A and I need to get to Point B. This is a thought 100% but the direct experience of full and total sensual immersion has not happened yet as well paradoxically."

If you don't go to expectations and fantasies and analytic thought and even past experiences, what here and now is *not* "immediateness of all senses" ?

[Elad]

Also please look and answer the following questions, only by attending to direct experience, not analytic thought:

1) Can you predict/control thoughts?

2) Can you control/move attention?

3) Can you control sensations, sounds, images, etc?

4) Can you control/choose movement?

[emptylooking]

Hi Elad

Here are the responses from direct loooking:

"So do I understand you right that yo say that in full mindfulness/attentiveness to what is there, it seen that no self is there, but that this full attentiveness is not there much of the time ?"

AJ: Yes, full attentiveness into senses is not there a lot of times during the day but as soon as some reactivity comes, then the inquiry starts again. If I have a day where I am not much busy then all my free time is occupied generally with Inquiry into separateness.

"If you don't go to expectations and fantasies and analytic thought and even past experiences, what here and now is *not* "immediateness of all senses" ?"

AJ: If I don't go to thoughts etc, yes there is just this. Just the 5 senses and thoughts appearing. But there is also subtle expectation that more needs to be clarified.


1) Can you predict/control thoughts?

Clearly No. I have been looking into this offlate and all thoughts are random.

2) Can you control/move attention?

This is new investigation for me. When I inquire, attentiveness is also random. It make it appear as if someone is controling it but in inquiry this is seen to be false. I need to spend more time with this as its interesting to clarify it.

3) Can you control sensations, sounds, images, etc?

Absolutely not.

4) Can you control/choose movement?

This is also something that needs more looking. If there is no thinker or controller of attention, then there cannot be someone controlling movement. It all appears to be so.

AJ

[Elad]

Hi Elad

Here are the responses from direct loooking:

"So do I understand you right that yo say that in full mindfulness/attentiveness to what is there, it seen that no self is there, but that this full attentiveness is not there much of the time ?"

AJ: Yes, full attentiveness into senses is not there a lot of times during the day but as soon as some reactivity comes, then the inquiry starts again. If I have a day where I am not much busy then all my free time is occupied generally with Inquiry into separateness.

"If you don't go to expectations and fantasies and analytic thought and even past experiences, what here and now is *not* "immediateness of all senses" ?"

AJ: If I don't go to thoughts etc, yes there is just this. Just the 5 senses and thoughts appearing. But there is also subtle expectation that more needs to be clarified.


1) Can you predict/control thoughts?

Clearly No. I have been looking into this offlate and all thoughts are random.

2) Can you control/move attention?

This is new investigation for me. When I inquire, attentiveness is also random. It make it appear as if someone is controling it but in inquiry this is seen to be false. I need to spend more time with this as its interesting to clarify it.

3) Can you control sensations, sounds, images, etc?

Absolutely not.

4) Can you control/choose movement?

This is also something that needs more looking. If there is no thinker or controller of attention, then there cannot be someone controlling movement. It all appears to be so.

AJ

Lots of clarity here! One thing, for the first question you only answered the second part of it. Please answer again:

"So do I understand you right, that you say that *in full mindfulness/attentiveness to what is there, it seen that no self is there*, but that this full attentiveness is not there much of the time ?"

[Elad]

Furthermore, let me know what you see in your continued exploration if anyone controls attention and if anyone controls movement.

Regarding movement, please do this exercise to support the investigation:

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk. Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

[emptylooking]

Hi Elad

So this is what I posted before:

"So do I understand you right that yo say that in full mindfulness/attentiveness to what is there, it seen that no self is there, but that this full attentiveness is not there much of the time ?"

AJ: Yes, full attentiveness into senses is not there a lot of times during the day but as soon as some reactivity comes, then the inquiry starts again. If I have a day where I am not much busy then all my free time is occupied generally with Inquiry into separateness.

[emptylooking]

Here are responses from last nights inquiry:

How is the movement controlled?

Movements are automatic. Its all random. What movement is about is an afterthought once it has happened.

Does a thought control it?

Thoughts do not seem to control it. Thought may precede the movement but don't control the movement. The thought might be "hand will turn down" but movement maybe of hand turning up instead of down.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No controller located. Only an afterthought or a "seeming" controller. There is a subtle commentary happening in thought space of what is happening but there is no one causing what is happening.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

"Turn the hand" is an independent thought. Hand actually turning is an independent movement. Because they seem to happening one after another, there is an assumption there is a link. But in inquiry they seem to be two independent phenomena arising.

Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Haha. No one. It just happened.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No. Only an assumption in thought of a separate individual.

[Elad]

Hi Elad

So this is what I posted before:

"So do I understand you right that yo say that in full mindfulness/attentiveness to what is there, it seen that no self is there, but that this full attentiveness is not there much of the time ?"

AJ: Yes, full attentiveness into senses is not there a lot of times during the day but as soon as some reactivity comes, then the inquiry starts again. If I have a day where I am not much busy then all my free time is occupied generally with Inquiry into separateness.

I think you are not seeing that you did not respond to the first part. *In full mindfulness/attentiveness to what is there, it is seen that no self is there* - is that your experience?

The second part - where you put your attention in the answer - just pertains to whatever the habits of attentiveness versus being lost in thoughts is. All these habits happen by themselves and don't need to change for awakening to happen. Awakening just needs one moment where it is truly seen and acknowledged what is actually there and what is a fantasy. It's not like the dream can't come back after awakening - it typically will for a lot of the time - it's not that suddenly there is amazing ongoing attentiveness. It's just that now it has been clearly seen that this is just being lost in very habitual and very normal daydreams.

[Elad]

Here are responses from last nights inquiry:

How is the movement controlled?

Movements are automatic. Its all random. What movement is about is an afterthought once it has happened.

Does a thought control it?

Thoughts do not seem to control it. Thought may precede the movement but don't control the movement. The thought might be "hand will turn down" but movement maybe of hand turning up instead of down.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No controller located. Only an afterthought or a "seeming" controller. There is a subtle commentary happening in thought space of what is happening but there is no one causing what is happening.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

"Turn the hand" is an independent thought. Hand actually turning is an independent movement. Because they seem to happening one after another, there is an assumption there is a link. But in inquiry they seem to be two independent phenomena arising.

Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Haha. No one. It just happened.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No. Only an assumption in thought of a separate individual.

This is crystal clear. Here are a few more questions for you:

[Elad]

Can anyone choose anything?

Do the sensations that are habitually associated with I in any way say or inherently express that they are I?

Does the word I or the name AJ in any way indicate the existence of anything stable, anything that is not just a belief based on a process of thinking?

Also, do this exercise:

Body Exercise

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.

Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?

Does the body have a weight or volume?

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?

If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.