LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Years ago, when I first encountered the Buddhist concept, "No self," that terrified me!! I was onboard for diligent practice of Right Speech, Right Action, etc., meditation, classes, etc., but wanted no part of "no self!" Now I understand that no self is ever "enlightened." Awakening happens, or rather, awakening is, and the self seems to go.
What are you looking for at LU?
A mentor to reflect what I may not be able to see within my actions and speech... Someone to speak what I may not want to hear... Someone well acquainted with this pathless path, and perhaps with nuances I cannot imagine.
What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I trust that what is necessary will come from the connection. I do not trust "my" own expectations!!! The Way knows the way, and this mind-identified self does not! I am willing to lean into uncertainty.
What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I began a spiritual quest in my late twenties, utterly frustrated by the limitations of the modern western medical model that failed to cure "severe recurrent clinical depression." From a 10-day Vipassana retreat to a Vision Quest in the New Mexican desert, from shamanic journeying to yoga teacher's training (living on ashrams), to New Thought and Buddhist classes and regular meditation, nothing touched the despair that threatened to take my life. In 2018, a radical paradigm shift occurred when I "became willing to change my mind." Working with A Course in Miracles and "praying without ceasing," I experienced realms of peace, joy, and gratitude that I had not thought possible for me. I gave up the psychiatrist and pills for a new role as "spiritual teacher." But over the next five years, dissonance began to creep in. I abandoned "mind training" for somatic work, finding great value in honoring messages from the body that had long been ignored. Chi Gong, Tantra, and TRE practices have been amazing! In September of this year, another paradigm shift occurred on retreat in Canada, with the help of self-inquiry dyads, Iboga and 5MEO-DMT. Still aware of some vestige of self, I "saw" and felt the absolute verity of the Heart Sutra, the spectacular cosmic joke - no path and nothing to attain. For weeks, I enjoyed a lightness of being... until seriousness entered once again! Recently, fueled by the despair of an apparently "failed" musical performance, I prayed to The Universe, "What?!!! I am willing to give up everything to be free!!!!" That night, as I was falling asleep, I remembered to welcome the depression, making loving space between "it" and "me." It occurred to me to delete all of my precious writings, that I was saving for a book or rainy day. The next morning, very clear in mind, with a touch of furious determination, I deleted years of writings... followed by deleting half of my gmail contacts, and a basket of tender cards saved for decades. I know that something is bound to rush into this welcoming vacuum!
On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11
In time and out of it.
Re: In time and out of it.
Hello JanineJanaki
Welcome to Liberation Unleashed.
My name is Alan and I’m very happy to help you see through the notion of a separate self.
As I read what you write I note a couple of things in particular. First, your willingness "to lean into uncertainty." Good. Our aim here is to lean right through what the mind may be uncertain about to that which can not be denied in any way.
And you also say....
So if you would like to look deeply together, here are some suggestions to help make the best use of this opportunity:
Post daily to keep up the momentum. Life continues to happen and if for some reason you find you cannot post on a particular day, or need more time, just let me know. And I’ll do the same.
Leave aside all other “spiritual” related resources - books, teachings, models, theories, philosophy and the like for the duration of our investigation. You have been down many "paths" from what you write about your experience JanineJanaki. Please leave aside everything you learned up till now. Like expectations this will only get in the way. This a chance to have a completely fresh LOOK. Here we are going to depend on your Actual Experience, not from what you have read, heard, learned or believed so far. Only what you yourself can observe directly in the moment from looking at what is here right now will be what matters.
Be 100% honest. And write as much as you can about what you are experiencing. We avoid philosophy and theory. This is about honest exploration and we are not looking for what appears to be “right” answers. Just report as best you can only what you are experiencing in the moment.
Also now is a good time to ask you to read through some important links and let me know if you are OK with everything before we get started.
1) The LU Disclaimer http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
Also, please watch this short video to learn how to use the Quote function which will help in our conversation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCbZYSvnTpc&t=1s
Sometimes system glitches happen so it’s recommended that you copy and paste into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread.
So if you'd like to get started just let me know if what we've covered here - and also in the links above - is all OK with you.
Do you have any burning questions?
Alan
Welcome to Liberation Unleashed.
My name is Alan and I’m very happy to help you see through the notion of a separate self.
As I read what you write I note a couple of things in particular. First, your willingness "to lean into uncertainty." Good. Our aim here is to lean right through what the mind may be uncertain about to that which can not be denied in any way.
And you also say....
This is so important here in this investigation. Expectations only get in the way. And we might actually dig into that a bit more.I do not trust "my" own expectations!!!
So if you would like to look deeply together, here are some suggestions to help make the best use of this opportunity:
Post daily to keep up the momentum. Life continues to happen and if for some reason you find you cannot post on a particular day, or need more time, just let me know. And I’ll do the same.
Leave aside all other “spiritual” related resources - books, teachings, models, theories, philosophy and the like for the duration of our investigation. You have been down many "paths" from what you write about your experience JanineJanaki. Please leave aside everything you learned up till now. Like expectations this will only get in the way. This a chance to have a completely fresh LOOK. Here we are going to depend on your Actual Experience, not from what you have read, heard, learned or believed so far. Only what you yourself can observe directly in the moment from looking at what is here right now will be what matters.
Be 100% honest. And write as much as you can about what you are experiencing. We avoid philosophy and theory. This is about honest exploration and we are not looking for what appears to be “right” answers. Just report as best you can only what you are experiencing in the moment.
Also now is a good time to ask you to read through some important links and let me know if you are OK with everything before we get started.
1) The LU Disclaimer http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
Also, please watch this short video to learn how to use the Quote function which will help in our conversation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCbZYSvnTpc&t=1s
Sometimes system glitches happen so it’s recommended that you copy and paste into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread.
So if you'd like to get started just let me know if what we've covered here - and also in the links above - is all OK with you.
Do you have any burning questions?
Alan
-
JanineJanaki
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2023 2:31 pm
Re: In time and out of it.
Hello Alan.
Thank you for your reply.
I'm feeling a bit confused. Recently, I've begun work with Pernilla and Todd Lent, in group, and one-on-one with Todd. Last Tuesday, in the wake of a Zen retreat that invited much turmoil, entangled with a belief in "specialness," that I'm now determined to see through, I experienced an intense emotional release. Pernilla guided the release. The following day, what began during the retreat as sensitivity in my teeth erupted into pain. Since Thursday, I’ve seen the dentist twice. No physical cause was found, so it was assumed that teeth clenching at night is the culprit. Day by day, the pain has escalated. Muscle relaxers were prescribed, and I’m using over-the-counter pain medication, though I’m not fond of pills.
I navigated a sense of depression and great fatigue after the retreat through rest and welcoming of all thoughts and feelings that presented. I recall a sense of lightness and ease as I pedaled on the exercise bike Thursday evening. But awakening early Friday morning to intense pain invited a bit of hysteria. Since then, I’ve had to take much rest and clear the board of all engagements. In times of steady pain, even a mere level 3, I become frantic, not knowing when or if this problem is to be resolved. Habits which have kept me sane in troubled times, like singing, or hiking, have not been possible. In meditation, I allow awareness to land in the pain, and attempt not to resist.
This morning I awoke to a sense of heavily worked muscles in the jaw. A mouth guard protects my teeth, but I cannot make the muscles relax. The mind struggles to make sense of the physical and emotional pain. “The self (whoever that is) does not want to release its grip,” I assume. “Here, take my hand, and we’ll let go together,” I offer to… ?
Presently, I feel little pain, but the morning’s burst of activity now feels tempered by the haze of muscle relaxer, and my thinking feels unclear. I don’t know what will happen next. Fortunately, I can clear my work schedule if necessary. But the thought of departing from teachings, such as those from Angelo Dilullo, seems terrifying. What to do with the empty hours? And my work with Todd and Pernilla?
Daily posting – I’m not sure how this is done. I post directly to The Gate? I assumed it was a call-and-response with a guide?
The mind is quite dull and foggy. Now I must rest.
Peace.
Janine
Thank you for your reply.
I'm feeling a bit confused. Recently, I've begun work with Pernilla and Todd Lent, in group, and one-on-one with Todd. Last Tuesday, in the wake of a Zen retreat that invited much turmoil, entangled with a belief in "specialness," that I'm now determined to see through, I experienced an intense emotional release. Pernilla guided the release. The following day, what began during the retreat as sensitivity in my teeth erupted into pain. Since Thursday, I’ve seen the dentist twice. No physical cause was found, so it was assumed that teeth clenching at night is the culprit. Day by day, the pain has escalated. Muscle relaxers were prescribed, and I’m using over-the-counter pain medication, though I’m not fond of pills.
I navigated a sense of depression and great fatigue after the retreat through rest and welcoming of all thoughts and feelings that presented. I recall a sense of lightness and ease as I pedaled on the exercise bike Thursday evening. But awakening early Friday morning to intense pain invited a bit of hysteria. Since then, I’ve had to take much rest and clear the board of all engagements. In times of steady pain, even a mere level 3, I become frantic, not knowing when or if this problem is to be resolved. Habits which have kept me sane in troubled times, like singing, or hiking, have not been possible. In meditation, I allow awareness to land in the pain, and attempt not to resist.
This morning I awoke to a sense of heavily worked muscles in the jaw. A mouth guard protects my teeth, but I cannot make the muscles relax. The mind struggles to make sense of the physical and emotional pain. “The self (whoever that is) does not want to release its grip,” I assume. “Here, take my hand, and we’ll let go together,” I offer to… ?
Presently, I feel little pain, but the morning’s burst of activity now feels tempered by the haze of muscle relaxer, and my thinking feels unclear. I don’t know what will happen next. Fortunately, I can clear my work schedule if necessary. But the thought of departing from teachings, such as those from Angelo Dilullo, seems terrifying. What to do with the empty hours? And my work with Todd and Pernilla?
Daily posting – I’m not sure how this is done. I post directly to The Gate? I assumed it was a call-and-response with a guide?
The mind is quite dull and foggy. Now I must rest.
Peace.
Janine
-
JanineJanaki
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2023 2:31 pm
Re: In time and out of it.
Hello Alan.
Thank you for your reply.
I'm feeling a bit confused. Recently, I've begun work with Pernilla and Todd Lent, in group, and one-on-one with Todd. Last Tuesday, in the wake of a Zen retreat that invited much turmoil, entangled with a belief in "specialness," that I'm now determined to see through, I experienced an intense emotional release. Pernilla guided the release. The following day, what began during the retreat as sensitivity in my teeth erupted into pain. Since Thursday, I’ve seen the dentist twice. No physical cause was found, so it was assumed that teeth clenching at night is the culprit. Day by day, the pain has escalated. Muscle relaxers were prescribed, and I’m using over-the-counter pain medication, though I’m not fond of pills.
I navigated a sense of depression and great fatigue after the retreat through rest and welcoming of all thoughts and feelings that presented. I recall a sense of lightness and ease as I pedaled on the exercise bike Thursday evening. But awakening early Friday morning to intense pain invited a bit of hysteria. Since then, I’ve had to take much rest and clear the board of all engagements. In times of steady pain, even a mere level 3, I become frantic, not knowing when or if this problem is to be resolved. Habits which have kept me sane in troubled times, like singing, or hiking, have not been possible. In meditation, I allow awareness to land in the pain, and attempt not to resist.
This morning I awoke to a sense of heavily worked muscles in the jaw. A mouth guard protects my teeth, but I cannot make the muscles relax. The mind struggles to make sense of the physical and emotional pain. “The self (whoever that is) does not want to release its grip,” I assume. “Here, take my hand, and we’ll let go together,” I offer to… ?
Presently, I feel little pain, but the morning’s burst of activity now feels tempered by the haze of muscle relaxer, and my thinking feels unclear. I don’t know what will happen next. Fortunately, I can clear my work schedule if necessary. But the thought of departing from teachings, such as those from Angelo Dilullo, seems terrifying. What to do with the empty hours? And my work with Todd and Pernilla?
Daily posting – I’m not sure how this is done. I post directly to The Gate? I assumed it was a call-and-response with a guide?
The mind is quite dull and foggy. Now I must rest.
Peace.
Janine
Thank you for your reply.
I'm feeling a bit confused. Recently, I've begun work with Pernilla and Todd Lent, in group, and one-on-one with Todd. Last Tuesday, in the wake of a Zen retreat that invited much turmoil, entangled with a belief in "specialness," that I'm now determined to see through, I experienced an intense emotional release. Pernilla guided the release. The following day, what began during the retreat as sensitivity in my teeth erupted into pain. Since Thursday, I’ve seen the dentist twice. No physical cause was found, so it was assumed that teeth clenching at night is the culprit. Day by day, the pain has escalated. Muscle relaxers were prescribed, and I’m using over-the-counter pain medication, though I’m not fond of pills.
I navigated a sense of depression and great fatigue after the retreat through rest and welcoming of all thoughts and feelings that presented. I recall a sense of lightness and ease as I pedaled on the exercise bike Thursday evening. But awakening early Friday morning to intense pain invited a bit of hysteria. Since then, I’ve had to take much rest and clear the board of all engagements. In times of steady pain, even a mere level 3, I become frantic, not knowing when or if this problem is to be resolved. Habits which have kept me sane in troubled times, like singing, or hiking, have not been possible. In meditation, I allow awareness to land in the pain, and attempt not to resist.
This morning I awoke to a sense of heavily worked muscles in the jaw. A mouth guard protects my teeth, but I cannot make the muscles relax. The mind struggles to make sense of the physical and emotional pain. “The self (whoever that is) does not want to release its grip,” I assume. “Here, take my hand, and we’ll let go together,” I offer to… ?
Presently, I feel little pain, but the morning’s burst of activity now feels tempered by the haze of muscle relaxer, and my thinking feels unclear. I don’t know what will happen next. Fortunately, I can clear my work schedule if necessary. But the thought of departing from teachings, such as those from Angelo Dilullo, seems terrifying. What to do with the empty hours? And my work with Todd and Pernilla?
Daily posting – I’m not sure how this is done. I post directly to The Gate? I assumed it was a call-and-response with a guide?
The mind is quite dull and foggy. Now I must rest.
Peace.
Janine
Re: In time and out of it.
Hello Janine,
Thank you for taking the time to let me know what is going on for you right now.
You certainly have so much happening. And what is immediately felt here is that taking on this investigation will just add to the feeling of overwhelm I sense is happening for you.
I note you are doing one-on-one's with Todd. I understand that it is often not easy to get on Todd's active list so I would not give that up. Todd is also an LU guide so I certainly would continue with Todd rather than starting to work with me. It really would be doubling up. And that would not be at all fair to Todd or yourself.
Hopefully what I have described here makes sense Janine. For now, to stay with the work you have started with Todd and Pernilla rather than starting something additional seems to be the way.
The door will always be wide open for you here at any time should you feel you need to be back in touch. Just add a post to this thread or contact LU admin again.
Let me know how all this feels to you.
With love
Alan
Thank you for taking the time to let me know what is going on for you right now.
You certainly have so much happening. And what is immediately felt here is that taking on this investigation will just add to the feeling of overwhelm I sense is happening for you.
I note you are doing one-on-one's with Todd. I understand that it is often not easy to get on Todd's active list so I would not give that up. Todd is also an LU guide so I certainly would continue with Todd rather than starting to work with me. It really would be doubling up. And that would not be at all fair to Todd or yourself.
Just to allay any concern about that, it is not asking you to forget all about them "forever." The reason for asking you to lay aside everything for the duration of an investigation here is simply this. We want to make sure that we create as "clear a space" as possible to EXPERIENCE DIRECTLY. I love what Angelo and Pernille and Todd teach. Such a gift to humanity. However trying to navigate other approaches simultaneously while we investigate direct experience inevitably invokes the cognitive faculty. What we want to avoid in this investigation is going to the mind to compare what we THINK we know. This just adds to confusion. THOUGHTS about truth, no matter how pure the thought, is not truth itself. The primary work here is done through what we might call authentic FELT LOOKING. Being willing to not engage with thought - even for the shortest time - is fundamental to realization.But the thought of departing from teachings, such as those from Angelo Dilullo, seems terrifying. What to do with the empty hours? And my work with Todd and Pernilla
The way you have just posted to me is the way to post on this forum. 😊Daily posting – I’m not sure how this is done. I post directly to The Gate? I assumed it was a call-and-response with a guide?
Hopefully what I have described here makes sense Janine. For now, to stay with the work you have started with Todd and Pernilla rather than starting something additional seems to be the way.
The door will always be wide open for you here at any time should you feel you need to be back in touch. Just add a post to this thread or contact LU admin again.
Let me know how all this feels to you.
With love
Alan
-
JanineJanaki
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2023 2:31 pm
Re: In time and out of it.
Thank you Alan.
I feel the verity of what you have communicated.
Something in me desires to quickly move beyond pain and trauma. She thinks she can take on the dragon... which indicates to me(?) faith in herself.
My first session (after the free introductory connection) with Todd occurred yesterday. He also inquired about the "readiness" of this vessel, given the last week of turmoil and physical pain. Nonetheless, toward the end of session, we dialogued about "the witness" which I tried to, but could not locate. I had a micro-glimpse of what felt like the world closing in on me, closer than close, which invoked some fear. But it was just a glimpse.
Afterward, I consulted his calendar to book the next session. To my dismay I saw that December 22 was the next available one. So, I did book. Then this morning, I received one phone notification about an email, not yours. I concluded that you had given up on me! After a heavy sigh, I turned to my faith in The Way. The Way knows the way. "I" do not. I felt content.
This morning, I feel clear and bright, more like the self I’ve been familiar with these past five years. I chuckle as I type, for during this span of time, I know that there have been as many selves as moments!! Apparently, I like this strong, enthusiastic one the best! The dental situation persists, so I’ll check in with the dentist later for the next step. During meditation, it occurred to me to contact one of the Zen teachers from the last sesshin, to inquire about somatic work. She had resonated with the “dark night” in which I seemed to reside, and shared that emotion release work had been helpful for her. So, I shall email her later for a reference, and face the traumas that have been so deeply buried.
I understand the necessity of laying aside other teachings. This mind is eager, but cannot guide me to awakening! Today I can smile at this!
Presently, I toss the reins aside, and with a smile, go with The Way. May I be “with The Force!!” (a counter-play to the Star Wars, ‘May the Force be with you.’)
Much love and good cheer!
Janine
I feel the verity of what you have communicated.
Something in me desires to quickly move beyond pain and trauma. She thinks she can take on the dragon... which indicates to me(?) faith in herself.
My first session (after the free introductory connection) with Todd occurred yesterday. He also inquired about the "readiness" of this vessel, given the last week of turmoil and physical pain. Nonetheless, toward the end of session, we dialogued about "the witness" which I tried to, but could not locate. I had a micro-glimpse of what felt like the world closing in on me, closer than close, which invoked some fear. But it was just a glimpse.
Afterward, I consulted his calendar to book the next session. To my dismay I saw that December 22 was the next available one. So, I did book. Then this morning, I received one phone notification about an email, not yours. I concluded that you had given up on me! After a heavy sigh, I turned to my faith in The Way. The Way knows the way. "I" do not. I felt content.
This morning, I feel clear and bright, more like the self I’ve been familiar with these past five years. I chuckle as I type, for during this span of time, I know that there have been as many selves as moments!! Apparently, I like this strong, enthusiastic one the best! The dental situation persists, so I’ll check in with the dentist later for the next step. During meditation, it occurred to me to contact one of the Zen teachers from the last sesshin, to inquire about somatic work. She had resonated with the “dark night” in which I seemed to reside, and shared that emotion release work had been helpful for her. So, I shall email her later for a reference, and face the traumas that have been so deeply buried.
I understand the necessity of laying aside other teachings. This mind is eager, but cannot guide me to awakening! Today I can smile at this!
Presently, I toss the reins aside, and with a smile, go with The Way. May I be “with The Force!!” (a counter-play to the Star Wars, ‘May the Force be with you.’)
Much love and good cheer!
Janine
Re: In time and out of it.
Hello again Janine
As I said this thread will remain so if you need to be back in touch just send a post. If for some reason I do not respond just email admin
All the very best as Life unfolds.
And above all trust the Inner Guide
With love
Alan
Lovely that we're on the same wavelength here.I feel the verity of what you have communicated.
As I said this thread will remain so if you need to be back in touch just send a post. If for some reason I do not respond just email admin
All the very best as Life unfolds.
And above all trust the Inner Guide
With love
Alan
-
JanineJanaki
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2023 2:31 pm
Re: In time and out of it.
Hi Alan!
As I pedaled on the exercise bike this morning, listening to Angelo, a sense of clarity accompanied me. I saw a belief about agency rivaling a belief in utter powerlessness. “I” did not invite this past week’s turmoil, in the wake of a disturbing retreat, nor did “I” abruptly come to clarity.
The Nov. 9-12 Zen sesshin was hellish, a stark contrast to the previous one last April, where love and kindness reigned. I realized that “I” had been entwined with a game of “specialness” for a very long time, incessantly seeking validation for hits of well-being, and suffering devastation when this thirst was not met. In this life, I’ve been especially good, in academics, arts, and writing, and especially bad, fighting decades of depression. Either was fine for the false self, just as long as she remained special. “Look at me!!” was the constant battle cry.
During retreat and on the way home, time and again, I watched the mind’s persistent tendency to grasp for attention with grave disappointment. A familiar dark depression ensued, leaving me wholly exhausted and untethered. Because of my steady exposure to nonduality teachings, I felt that I had neither friend nor God to pray to (even though my dear mate was ever at hand).
Nonetheless, mid-week, the darkness lifted and I found myself smiling in ease on the exercise bike. But my sense of peace was abruptly stifled in the middle of the night Wednesday by an intense pain in my right jaw and bottom right teeth. A sensitivity that I’d never felt before had appeared on the second day of the sesshin and escalated, over the course of several days, to pain. Though I’m not fond of pills, the intensity sent me downstairs to retrieve a pain-reliever. Opening the bottles of Ibuprofen and Tylenol pm to select one of each, I could not help but notice the irony – red pill/blue pill (The Matrix). “I didn’t know that was a choice as well!” I laughed, despite the discomfort. “Why not take both!”
Since then, it’s been a wild ride through varying degrees of pain and depression. Admittedly, depression scares the hell out of me, since I had felt like a captive to “it” for decades. I saw the dentist twice to find a culprit, but none showed up, other than excessive teeth clenching, due to stress. Muscle relaxers were prescribed and I was instructed to use my mouth sparingly and eat only soft foods or smoothies. When I felt able, I attempted to meet the pain and darkness with welcoming intention, though “Go Away!!!” screamed from inside.
This morning, the pain was quite mild, and the depression, gone, gone! But what’s more compelling is my seeing that I do not have agency! When I “corrected my thinking” during the few years with A Course in Miracles, I concluded that “I changed my mind,” and banished depression forever. At some point, it became clear that I was to be present with the body and listen to its communication. I learned to welcome the uncomfortable as well as the calm. Depression would find me on occasion, but pass very, very quickly. So, I assumed that "my practice gives me control” over what I feel. This latest more extended dance with darkness shows me that “I” have no control. I didn’t make it come, and I surely didn’t make it go. Very interesting!
Now the question, what to do, if anything? I would like to align with Spontaneity and Flow and simply do “the next obvious thing,” overlooking analysis and planning. I trust The Way.
All this being said, I feel ready to dialogue with you if you feel that’s appropriate. I can suspend listening to other teachings. I don’t see Todd again until late December, but he assures me that work with you is complimentary.
I’ll leave this up to The Way, content with whatever presents.
Thank you.
Peace.
Janine
As I pedaled on the exercise bike this morning, listening to Angelo, a sense of clarity accompanied me. I saw a belief about agency rivaling a belief in utter powerlessness. “I” did not invite this past week’s turmoil, in the wake of a disturbing retreat, nor did “I” abruptly come to clarity.
The Nov. 9-12 Zen sesshin was hellish, a stark contrast to the previous one last April, where love and kindness reigned. I realized that “I” had been entwined with a game of “specialness” for a very long time, incessantly seeking validation for hits of well-being, and suffering devastation when this thirst was not met. In this life, I’ve been especially good, in academics, arts, and writing, and especially bad, fighting decades of depression. Either was fine for the false self, just as long as she remained special. “Look at me!!” was the constant battle cry.
During retreat and on the way home, time and again, I watched the mind’s persistent tendency to grasp for attention with grave disappointment. A familiar dark depression ensued, leaving me wholly exhausted and untethered. Because of my steady exposure to nonduality teachings, I felt that I had neither friend nor God to pray to (even though my dear mate was ever at hand).
Nonetheless, mid-week, the darkness lifted and I found myself smiling in ease on the exercise bike. But my sense of peace was abruptly stifled in the middle of the night Wednesday by an intense pain in my right jaw and bottom right teeth. A sensitivity that I’d never felt before had appeared on the second day of the sesshin and escalated, over the course of several days, to pain. Though I’m not fond of pills, the intensity sent me downstairs to retrieve a pain-reliever. Opening the bottles of Ibuprofen and Tylenol pm to select one of each, I could not help but notice the irony – red pill/blue pill (The Matrix). “I didn’t know that was a choice as well!” I laughed, despite the discomfort. “Why not take both!”
Since then, it’s been a wild ride through varying degrees of pain and depression. Admittedly, depression scares the hell out of me, since I had felt like a captive to “it” for decades. I saw the dentist twice to find a culprit, but none showed up, other than excessive teeth clenching, due to stress. Muscle relaxers were prescribed and I was instructed to use my mouth sparingly and eat only soft foods or smoothies. When I felt able, I attempted to meet the pain and darkness with welcoming intention, though “Go Away!!!” screamed from inside.
This morning, the pain was quite mild, and the depression, gone, gone! But what’s more compelling is my seeing that I do not have agency! When I “corrected my thinking” during the few years with A Course in Miracles, I concluded that “I changed my mind,” and banished depression forever. At some point, it became clear that I was to be present with the body and listen to its communication. I learned to welcome the uncomfortable as well as the calm. Depression would find me on occasion, but pass very, very quickly. So, I assumed that "my practice gives me control” over what I feel. This latest more extended dance with darkness shows me that “I” have no control. I didn’t make it come, and I surely didn’t make it go. Very interesting!
Now the question, what to do, if anything? I would like to align with Spontaneity and Flow and simply do “the next obvious thing,” overlooking analysis and planning. I trust The Way.
All this being said, I feel ready to dialogue with you if you feel that’s appropriate. I can suspend listening to other teachings. I don’t see Todd again until late December, but he assures me that work with you is complimentary.
I’ll leave this up to The Way, content with whatever presents.
Thank you.
Peace.
Janine
Re: In time and out of it.
Hello Janine,
I must admit when I saw your post I was somewhat surprised to read in particular what you wrote that you are now very willing to put aside other teachings for the duration of this investigation after having been very reluctant to do so initially
However I do hear what you say about realizing what has been happening around the belief about agency and the game of “specialness” They can be so subversive and pervasive.
Also it's good that you have spoken with Todd and he sees our work is complimentary.
So as I take it you would like to get started. So here's a couple of things ........
We will start from scratch with this investigation to ensure we don't assume anything.
I will be very direct and should it feel personal at times the intention is purely to confront any beliefs that need to be questioned. And on your part willingness to be 100% honest.
Are you OK with that?
This investigation is for one purpose and one purpose only and that is through your own direct experience to dissolve any notion that there is a separate self. We are not here to fix anything or do anything else.
Now I'm not sure if you had a chance to look at the links and the short video on the Quote function in my first post. Just in case you haven't I'll include them here as it helps make things clear about this endeavor.
1) The LU Disclaimer http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
Also, please watch this short video to learn how to use the Quote function which will help in our conversation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCbZYSvnTpc&t=1s
Sometimes system glitches happen so it’s recommended that you copy and paste into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread.
So just let me know if what we've covered here - and also in the links above - is all OK with you and we'll get started.
With love
Alan
I must admit when I saw your post I was somewhat surprised to read in particular what you wrote that you are now very willing to put aside other teachings for the duration of this investigation after having been very reluctant to do so initially
However I do hear what you say about realizing what has been happening around the belief about agency and the game of “specialness” They can be so subversive and pervasive.
Also it's good that you have spoken with Todd and he sees our work is complimentary.
So as I take it you would like to get started. So here's a couple of things ........
We will start from scratch with this investigation to ensure we don't assume anything.
I will be very direct and should it feel personal at times the intention is purely to confront any beliefs that need to be questioned. And on your part willingness to be 100% honest.
Are you OK with that?
This investigation is for one purpose and one purpose only and that is through your own direct experience to dissolve any notion that there is a separate self. We are not here to fix anything or do anything else.
Now I'm not sure if you had a chance to look at the links and the short video on the Quote function in my first post. Just in case you haven't I'll include them here as it helps make things clear about this endeavor.
1) The LU Disclaimer http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
Also, please watch this short video to learn how to use the Quote function which will help in our conversation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCbZYSvnTpc&t=1s
Sometimes system glitches happen so it’s recommended that you copy and paste into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread.
So just let me know if what we've covered here - and also in the links above - is all OK with you and we'll get started.
With love
Alan
-
JanineJanaki
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2023 2:31 pm
Re: In time and out of it.
Hi Alan!
I understand how my abrupt turn-about regarding the use of other material during our investigation may have puzzled you. At the time that I hesitated about abandoning other teachings, I was quite troubled with physical pain and mental turmoil. I’ve had neither psychiatric doctors nor medicine for four years, and assumed that clinical depression was a thing of the past. I have never really had such prolonged physical pain before. Since this vessel seems to be ultra-sensitive, the two combined, for many days, with no end in sight found me quite high strung! I couldn’t see abandoning that life-line of teachings in which I’m accustomed to viewing a few hours each day.
Now that the storm has passed, clarity abides, and I see no problem in setting aside other teachings. I know that residing as a separate self is suffering, and I also see that “awakening” does not magically remove all habit patterns and reactive tendencies. I am full in on this process; there is no way “I can turn back now.” It is time.
I have watched the content in those links three or four times. The message is clear on the website. I promise to be 100% honest in my communication. I know that secrecy serves no one! I must admit a twinge of fear that you too will honestly expose what this self loathes to see. Nonetheless, “I” am ready.
Thank you for your help!
Respectfully,
With much love and good cheer!
Janine
I understand how my abrupt turn-about regarding the use of other material during our investigation may have puzzled you. At the time that I hesitated about abandoning other teachings, I was quite troubled with physical pain and mental turmoil. I’ve had neither psychiatric doctors nor medicine for four years, and assumed that clinical depression was a thing of the past. I have never really had such prolonged physical pain before. Since this vessel seems to be ultra-sensitive, the two combined, for many days, with no end in sight found me quite high strung! I couldn’t see abandoning that life-line of teachings in which I’m accustomed to viewing a few hours each day.
Now that the storm has passed, clarity abides, and I see no problem in setting aside other teachings. I know that residing as a separate self is suffering, and I also see that “awakening” does not magically remove all habit patterns and reactive tendencies. I am full in on this process; there is no way “I can turn back now.” It is time.
I have watched the content in those links three or four times. The message is clear on the website. I promise to be 100% honest in my communication. I know that secrecy serves no one! I must admit a twinge of fear that you too will honestly expose what this self loathes to see. Nonetheless, “I” am ready.
Thank you for your help!
Respectfully,
With much love and good cheer!
Janine
Re: In time and out of it.
Hello Janine,
Thank you for what you wrote. It certainly seems like a very challenging stretch you have been through.
You have covered a lot of background and have been very clear that you have no expectations. Even with that being said there is a sense here that I should not assume what you might feel about some specific questions relating to your expectations about this investigation
So we will start here as it gives a solid reference point for down the track. Give yourself time to ponder these points then send me what comes.
How do you expect life to change? What will be different?
How will you change?
What do you hope to gain?
Is there anything you fear losing?
What is missing now?
And one more thing for today. Let the following statement really sink in.
There is no separate self, never has been and never will be. That there is, is all just a made up story.
What reactions - from none to subtle to strong - come up when you read that statement?
What's the first thought to pop into your head?
Do you feel any emotion(s) rising at all?
Any other reactions - subtle or strong?
As you may have noticed I will highlight questions for you to respond to in blue text so that they are easy for you to spot.
BTW I am in the eastern time zone in Australia – AEST
What time zone are you in Janine?
With love
Alan
Thank you for what you wrote. It certainly seems like a very challenging stretch you have been through.
You have covered a lot of background and have been very clear that you have no expectations. Even with that being said there is a sense here that I should not assume what you might feel about some specific questions relating to your expectations about this investigation
So we will start here as it gives a solid reference point for down the track. Give yourself time to ponder these points then send me what comes.
How do you expect life to change? What will be different?
How will you change?
What do you hope to gain?
Is there anything you fear losing?
What is missing now?
And one more thing for today. Let the following statement really sink in.
There is no separate self, never has been and never will be. That there is, is all just a made up story.
What reactions - from none to subtle to strong - come up when you read that statement?
What's the first thought to pop into your head?
Do you feel any emotion(s) rising at all?
Any other reactions - subtle or strong?
As you may have noticed I will highlight questions for you to respond to in blue text so that they are easy for you to spot.
BTW I am in the eastern time zone in Australia – AEST
What time zone are you in Janine?
With love
Alan
-
JanineJanaki
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2023 2:31 pm
Re: In time and out of it.
Hello Alan!
How do you expect life to change? What will be different?
I expect that suffering may not be perceived as such. For instance, in meditation, I am keenly aware of the slow-motion wave of a “hot flash.” I feel tingling and a bit of heat in my hands, some flashes of sensation in the forehead and above the lip, and then a gradual flush of heat down the front body. I find the sensations of interest, and remain still, without resistance. In contrast, when a “hot flash” occurs “out of meditation,” I am not aware of the quieter precursors. Abruptly, I am oppressed by confining heat, and so, in reaction, layers of clothing fly in defiance! So, it’s not that sensations may be all that different, but I assume the perception will be different, and thus, less suffering.
How will you change?
I’m not sure that the persona may change all that much, the quirks and tendencies… the pull toward artistic expression… the hope is that these tendencies will no longer be identified with “the doer,” and thus be more natural and aligned with The Flow, rather than being continuously commandeered by the false self.
What do you hope to gain?
Perhaps clarity… As a separate self, there is a whirlwind of thoughts and reactive patterns, a fight for control, and a desperate desire to be free from all that binds. When “I” come to stillness, close my eyes, and take a breath, I can come to peace. The hope is that I will feel life and meditation as one in the same.
Is there anything you fear losing?
I’m not sure I fear anything specific. I’ve prayed earnestly, “I will do anything to be free!”, surrendering house and mate, as if there’s a price for freedom! I recall a moment at a retreat last September, meditating on a micro-dose of Iboga. My entire front body flooded with energy and an intense buzzing filled awareness. I felt on the edge of something. Would I vomit or pass out? Or was this “awakening?” The fear of death gripped me and I tried to allow the intention to awaken to prevail. Then the experience receded and I settled back into “normal” meditation.
I suppose, though I’m not content with this win some, lose some existence, it is familiar. Something in me fears the Unknown.
What is missing now?
“A sustainable sense of peace” is the immediate uncensored answer. I’ll leave it at that, before the wordsmith crafts something else!
There is no separate self, never has been and never will be. That there is, is all just a made up story.
What reactions - from none to subtle to strong - come up when you read that statement?
Immediate intense rush of sorrow and tears.
What's the first thought to pop into your head?
They lied to me!!!!
Do you feel any emotion(s) rising at all?
Fury… despair.
Any other reactions - subtle or strong?
Lots of contractions in the abdomen and many tears. Thoughts - “How could they?! How did this happen?!!”
I feel like the moment I learned that there was no Santa Claus. “Mom and Dad lied to me? They lied?! How could they?!!”
It seems that the clues to Reality As It Is and not as it appears to be are all around…
And now, fear… something searching for escape…
And now, tears of gratitude. Thank you, Alan. Thank you.
I’m in the United States, Eastern Standard Time.
One question, shall I also set aside groups such as Pernilla and Todd’s? I don’t mind doing so.
Thank you.
Love,
Janine
How do you expect life to change? What will be different?
I expect that suffering may not be perceived as such. For instance, in meditation, I am keenly aware of the slow-motion wave of a “hot flash.” I feel tingling and a bit of heat in my hands, some flashes of sensation in the forehead and above the lip, and then a gradual flush of heat down the front body. I find the sensations of interest, and remain still, without resistance. In contrast, when a “hot flash” occurs “out of meditation,” I am not aware of the quieter precursors. Abruptly, I am oppressed by confining heat, and so, in reaction, layers of clothing fly in defiance! So, it’s not that sensations may be all that different, but I assume the perception will be different, and thus, less suffering.
How will you change?
I’m not sure that the persona may change all that much, the quirks and tendencies… the pull toward artistic expression… the hope is that these tendencies will no longer be identified with “the doer,” and thus be more natural and aligned with The Flow, rather than being continuously commandeered by the false self.
What do you hope to gain?
Perhaps clarity… As a separate self, there is a whirlwind of thoughts and reactive patterns, a fight for control, and a desperate desire to be free from all that binds. When “I” come to stillness, close my eyes, and take a breath, I can come to peace. The hope is that I will feel life and meditation as one in the same.
Is there anything you fear losing?
I’m not sure I fear anything specific. I’ve prayed earnestly, “I will do anything to be free!”, surrendering house and mate, as if there’s a price for freedom! I recall a moment at a retreat last September, meditating on a micro-dose of Iboga. My entire front body flooded with energy and an intense buzzing filled awareness. I felt on the edge of something. Would I vomit or pass out? Or was this “awakening?” The fear of death gripped me and I tried to allow the intention to awaken to prevail. Then the experience receded and I settled back into “normal” meditation.
I suppose, though I’m not content with this win some, lose some existence, it is familiar. Something in me fears the Unknown.
What is missing now?
“A sustainable sense of peace” is the immediate uncensored answer. I’ll leave it at that, before the wordsmith crafts something else!
There is no separate self, never has been and never will be. That there is, is all just a made up story.
What reactions - from none to subtle to strong - come up when you read that statement?
Immediate intense rush of sorrow and tears.
What's the first thought to pop into your head?
They lied to me!!!!
Do you feel any emotion(s) rising at all?
Fury… despair.
Any other reactions - subtle or strong?
Lots of contractions in the abdomen and many tears. Thoughts - “How could they?! How did this happen?!!”
I feel like the moment I learned that there was no Santa Claus. “Mom and Dad lied to me? They lied?! How could they?!!”
It seems that the clues to Reality As It Is and not as it appears to be are all around…
And now, fear… something searching for escape…
And now, tears of gratitude. Thank you, Alan. Thank you.
I’m in the United States, Eastern Standard Time.
One question, shall I also set aside groups such as Pernilla and Todd’s? I don’t mind doing so.
Thank you.
Love,
Janine
Re: In time and out of it.
Hello Janine,
You have articulated this very clearly.
The paradox here is that we come to this inquiry because of all these expectations and then we're asked to lay them aside ! Why is that? It is because they arise and exist in the realm of thought which is the domain of the illusion we are looking to see through.
Now while it is easier said than done, just do your best to leave them aside. The pointers that we will use help us do that.
And if we look honestly there is this over riding desire to "awaken." We even ask to lay that aside as it typically carries with it many assumptions about what it is.
The only valid expectation is the desire to see the truth of this that we call a "me." Once seen then other expectations will be touched. How they are touched is very individual and unique.
This notion of an "I" is the shakey (non existent) foundation on which so many of these expectations are built. This is what robs us of the peace we yearn for.
And another thing to be aware of. While we yearn to find the truth within us, it is every bit as important to find that which veils the truth. Becoming aware of what veils the truth is what this inquiry is all about.
How does all this sit with you?
Now about your reactions to the statement that no separate self exists.....
Each of us has very different reactions. Your reaction of rage to "they lied to me" is totally understandable. Conditioning can be so deep that it can be such a shock when we realize the falsehoods it imposes on our innocence especially as a child.
The antidote is what this exploration is all about - to find what it is that has brought about the phenomenon of us believing this lie.
To find the truth of "no self" the approach here is to deconstruct the idea of the separate self. It is an unlearning, an undoing and for this reason the best way to approach this is to put aside everything you think you know or expect and just be with this exploration with an openness and a willingness to LOOK directly. By applying the exercises and questions given throughout this exploration in your day to day living - not just sitting and pondering or imagining what we are exploring - but actually applying the ideas to your life and seeing them in action…actually doing the work (practical application) every day, day in and day out, you will then be able to LOOK and see that even though the separate self seems to appear over and over, the truth is that it actually can never be found. It is this continual ACTUAL EXPERIENCE that is the key. Eventually it won't matter that the sense of a separate self still appears...there is simply a knowing that it is a concept - a fictitious imaginary character. This exploration is not about getting rid of the separate self or getting rid of anything, but seeing that there was never a separate limited self to start with.
All that is asked is that you LOOK every day and LOOK diligently…not for anyone’s sake but for your own – for you to be 100% committed to yourself (as we have talked about already) in order to see through the idea of being the separate self. It is through this diligent LOOKING that realizations happen. On the flip side, being gentle with one self is also necessary. Many years of thinking one is a limited separate entity with ingrained beliefs and conditioning isn’t necessarily going to disappear overnight. So being gentle with yourself and having compassion for yourself is very necessary.
So let us now at this vital key.
Direct or Actual Experience (DE or AE for short)
So many of us humans believe we are seeing clearly when in fact we are seeing through what might be described as a fog of thought (labels, beliefs, concepts, assumptions, perspectives and many other attributes of what we call mind) This can come as a bit of a shock and also a great relief to truly see the ways in which we do this.
So what is this Direct or Actual Experiencing? For practical purposes we can identify 6 aspects of experiencing. It is PURE
Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)
We are depending totally on DE to LOOK for no self.
Now here are a couple of exercises that help us experience what it is like to get out of our heads and see what is really going on in present moment experience - Direct or Actual Experience. (DE or AE)
If I was to ask you what color is the heel of your left sock or shoe, there are at least two ways to answer. One is you could answer from memory or alternatively you could go and LOOK.
What color do you think the heel of your left sock or shoe is?
Can you be 100% sure?
When you LOOK DIRECTLY is it what you thought it was?
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.
One of the traps we can fall into without even noticing is going to memory (thought) for an answer rather than LOOKING directly.
Going straight to DE EVERY TIME to EXPERIENCE an answer - no matter how simple - cuts to the core of this exploration so much faster.
One of the things that veils DE is the phenomena of labeling
Here is something Ilona wrote about labeling
https://markedeternal.blogspot.com/search?q=labels
Let’s use DE with seeing and hearing for a start
As you are sitting responding to this post describe……
What are you are seeing? (without labels.)
What are you are hearing? (without labels.)
With love
Alan
You have articulated this very clearly.
The paradox here is that we come to this inquiry because of all these expectations and then we're asked to lay them aside ! Why is that? It is because they arise and exist in the realm of thought which is the domain of the illusion we are looking to see through.
Now while it is easier said than done, just do your best to leave them aside. The pointers that we will use help us do that.
And if we look honestly there is this over riding desire to "awaken." We even ask to lay that aside as it typically carries with it many assumptions about what it is.
The only valid expectation is the desire to see the truth of this that we call a "me." Once seen then other expectations will be touched. How they are touched is very individual and unique.
This notion of an "I" is the shakey (non existent) foundation on which so many of these expectations are built. This is what robs us of the peace we yearn for.
And another thing to be aware of. While we yearn to find the truth within us, it is every bit as important to find that which veils the truth. Becoming aware of what veils the truth is what this inquiry is all about.
We will come at this gently. However if fear does impose itself please let me knowSomething in me fears the Unknown
How does all this sit with you?
Uncrafted is best!before the wordsmith crafts something else!
Now about your reactions to the statement that no separate self exists.....
Each of us has very different reactions. Your reaction of rage to "they lied to me" is totally understandable. Conditioning can be so deep that it can be such a shock when we realize the falsehoods it imposes on our innocence especially as a child.
The antidote is what this exploration is all about - to find what it is that has brought about the phenomenon of us believing this lie.
It may seem strange but there is nothing to run (escape) from. Clear seeing is all that is needed. That alone does the work. This is the way beliefs created by unfounded assumptions that impose themselves are dismantled. And this is where direct experience plays such a vital role.And now, fear… something searching for escape…
To find the truth of "no self" the approach here is to deconstruct the idea of the separate self. It is an unlearning, an undoing and for this reason the best way to approach this is to put aside everything you think you know or expect and just be with this exploration with an openness and a willingness to LOOK directly. By applying the exercises and questions given throughout this exploration in your day to day living - not just sitting and pondering or imagining what we are exploring - but actually applying the ideas to your life and seeing them in action…actually doing the work (practical application) every day, day in and day out, you will then be able to LOOK and see that even though the separate self seems to appear over and over, the truth is that it actually can never be found. It is this continual ACTUAL EXPERIENCE that is the key. Eventually it won't matter that the sense of a separate self still appears...there is simply a knowing that it is a concept - a fictitious imaginary character. This exploration is not about getting rid of the separate self or getting rid of anything, but seeing that there was never a separate limited self to start with.
All that is asked is that you LOOK every day and LOOK diligently…not for anyone’s sake but for your own – for you to be 100% committed to yourself (as we have talked about already) in order to see through the idea of being the separate self. It is through this diligent LOOKING that realizations happen. On the flip side, being gentle with one self is also necessary. Many years of thinking one is a limited separate entity with ingrained beliefs and conditioning isn’t necessarily going to disappear overnight. So being gentle with yourself and having compassion for yourself is very necessary.
So let us now at this vital key.
Direct or Actual Experience (DE or AE for short)
So many of us humans believe we are seeing clearly when in fact we are seeing through what might be described as a fog of thought (labels, beliefs, concepts, assumptions, perspectives and many other attributes of what we call mind) This can come as a bit of a shock and also a great relief to truly see the ways in which we do this.
So what is this Direct or Actual Experiencing? For practical purposes we can identify 6 aspects of experiencing. It is PURE
Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)
We are depending totally on DE to LOOK for no self.
Now here are a couple of exercises that help us experience what it is like to get out of our heads and see what is really going on in present moment experience - Direct or Actual Experience. (DE or AE)
If I was to ask you what color is the heel of your left sock or shoe, there are at least two ways to answer. One is you could answer from memory or alternatively you could go and LOOK.
What color do you think the heel of your left sock or shoe is?
Can you be 100% sure?
When you LOOK DIRECTLY is it what you thought it was?
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.
One of the traps we can fall into without even noticing is going to memory (thought) for an answer rather than LOOKING directly.
Going straight to DE EVERY TIME to EXPERIENCE an answer - no matter how simple - cuts to the core of this exploration so much faster.
One of the things that veils DE is the phenomena of labeling
Here is something Ilona wrote about labeling
https://markedeternal.blogspot.com/search?q=labels
Let’s use DE with seeing and hearing for a start
As you are sitting responding to this post describe……
What are you are seeing? (without labels.)
What are you are hearing? (without labels.)
With love
Alan
-
JanineJanaki
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2023 2:31 pm
Re: In time and out of it.
Hi Alan!
When I did the labeling exercise, without the use of “I” and “mine,” I found quite a few descriptions with nouns (“slight jaw tension,” “cold fingertips”) rather than verbs and I noted a pause in the breath early on as the mind sought to describe running water without labeling. When I examine the two pages, I like the simplicity of experience without “I and “mine.” The use of “I” and “mine” feels cumbersome.
How does all this sit with you?
I suspect a face-to-face with fear is inevitable.
What color do you think the heel of your left sock or shoe is?
White
Can you be 100% sure?
No!
When you LOOK DIRECTLY is it what you thought it was?
Blue! The sock is white, with a pattern, but the heel is blue.
What are you are seeing? (without labels.)
The initial reaction is a bit of panic as “I” try to get it right… this new game of conveying what I’m seeing without labels. How can I communicate without labels?! Stop. Breathe. The thought, “this might be easier to do if I was upside-down,” and “Well, when I paint, I’m not really painting a ‘subject.’ My latest piece, just begun, is a scene from a closeup image of the forest floor. I select colors and place them by feel, shapes and textures.” It feels nearly impossible to forget the imposition of conditioned labels and see simply shapes, textures, and colors. The self is disappointed in herself.
What are you are hearing? (without labels.)
Spoken words from the other room. Birds chirping. Keyboard toying with keys. Keyboard playing and the words spoken… like a song, unprepared emerging from nothingness, never to be repeated.
I am completing this later than I’d like (mid-afternoon). Busy day with family breakfast and band practice, but I am trying to LOOK all the while.
Thanks very much for your steady presence!
Love,
Janine
When I did the labeling exercise, without the use of “I” and “mine,” I found quite a few descriptions with nouns (“slight jaw tension,” “cold fingertips”) rather than verbs and I noted a pause in the breath early on as the mind sought to describe running water without labeling. When I examine the two pages, I like the simplicity of experience without “I and “mine.” The use of “I” and “mine” feels cumbersome.
How does all this sit with you?
I suspect a face-to-face with fear is inevitable.
What color do you think the heel of your left sock or shoe is?
White
Can you be 100% sure?
No!
When you LOOK DIRECTLY is it what you thought it was?
Blue! The sock is white, with a pattern, but the heel is blue.
What are you are seeing? (without labels.)
The initial reaction is a bit of panic as “I” try to get it right… this new game of conveying what I’m seeing without labels. How can I communicate without labels?! Stop. Breathe. The thought, “this might be easier to do if I was upside-down,” and “Well, when I paint, I’m not really painting a ‘subject.’ My latest piece, just begun, is a scene from a closeup image of the forest floor. I select colors and place them by feel, shapes and textures.” It feels nearly impossible to forget the imposition of conditioned labels and see simply shapes, textures, and colors. The self is disappointed in herself.
What are you are hearing? (without labels.)
Spoken words from the other room. Birds chirping. Keyboard toying with keys. Keyboard playing and the words spoken… like a song, unprepared emerging from nothingness, never to be repeated.
I am completing this later than I’d like (mid-afternoon). Busy day with family breakfast and band practice, but I am trying to LOOK all the while.
Thanks very much for your steady presence!
Love,
Janine
Re: In time and out of it.
Good to see your post Janine
By dropping the “I” and “mine” labels is anything REAL actually being ignored?
What is actually being "dropped" when you do not use the words “I” and “mine”?
You may have in fact seen this before. However I find the way Adyashanti points to emotion here can help us experience it from a standpoint other than from fear itself. And diving into emotion headlong is not necessarily the way. It is OK to take "baby steps" Like any relationship, feel into it step by step.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrSgcolnPkk
Emotions are a significant part of who we are. Dissipating emotion is not a pre-requiiste to the initial seeing through the notion of no-self which is our endeavor here. However, let me let me reiterate and say if emotion becomes a significant distraction or imposes itself so as to be a major barrier as we explore here, please let me know.
When we actually prove or actually come to see or know that something is not true, how can that be honestly be labelled "failure"?
Isn't that in itself a discovery?
So have a look at this ........
Language itself is a labeling phenomenon and every word but a symbol. So what we are looking for here is to reduce the description of experience down to the most fundamental, simple descriptor. That is, describing our experience with minimal interference from the mind - without adding the content of any thoughts or interpretations. (Mind is the term we use for streams of thought. While some would challenge that such a thing as a mind exists, for practical purposes here we will use the term "mind")
Imagine what a baby sees when they first open their eyes.
What would you say they are seeing? Do they have any labels in their mind?
If you asked a five year old what they are seeing, would what they describe be any different to what a baby actually is seeing?
If no, why not?
If yes, how would it be different?
With love
Alan
Yes, the simplicity is beautiful. And a weight off our shoulders so to speak. Consciously dropping “I” and “mine”, while seemingly simple, actually does help us feel into the alternative to a long ingrained habit.When I examine the two pages, I like the simplicity of experience without “I and “mine.” The use of “I” and “mine” feels cumbersome.
By dropping the “I” and “mine” labels is anything REAL actually being ignored?
What is actually being "dropped" when you do not use the words “I” and “mine”?
I understand this assumption. Entertaining a fear ( even somewhat muted) of the fear is extra baggage. We can never know how these things will play out. What actually is the truth is that the emotion itself is never actually the "problem" It is our resistance to the emotion that creates the turmoil.I suspect a face-to-face with fear is inevitable.
You may have in fact seen this before. However I find the way Adyashanti points to emotion here can help us experience it from a standpoint other than from fear itself. And diving into emotion headlong is not necessarily the way. It is OK to take "baby steps" Like any relationship, feel into it step by step.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrSgcolnPkk
Emotions are a significant part of who we are. Dissipating emotion is not a pre-requiiste to the initial seeing through the notion of no-self which is our endeavor here. However, let me let me reiterate and say if emotion becomes a significant distraction or imposes itself so as to be a major barrier as we explore here, please let me know.
Isn't that such a natural reaction for so many of us? We are typically conditioned to believe that getting it wrong is failure. Here we are in a process of discovery. True discovery can never be experienced without being willing to embrace "failure" as its essential companion. Here we are finding out what is true AND what is not.The initial reaction is a bit of panic as “I” try to get it right…
When we actually prove or actually come to see or know that something is not true, how can that be honestly be labelled "failure"?
Isn't that in itself a discovery?
Actually you are pointing to the paradox that we entertain here. Whilst we know labels are always an abstraction of, and cloud reality, we also know that we cannot communicate in language without labels. So while we fully understand that, we then do our best to communicate with the most basic labels that we can as we share experience about this investigation. We use them as pointers.this new game of conveying what I’m seeing without labels.
Are you describing in the most basic of labels? Very close but not quite !! Do not despair !!! I could get out the Zen stick and send you back to find the RIGHT answer !!! But we won't resort to that approach. This is part of the discovery that we will dig into in the next exercises.“Well, when I paint, I’m not really painting a ‘subject.’ My latest piece, just begun, is a scene from a closeup image of the forest floor. I select colors and place them by feel, shapes and textures.” It feels nearly impossible to forget the imposition of conditioned labels and see simply shapes, textures, and colors.
Aah. Interesting ! Can you actually find the entity that is disappointed in herself?The self is disappointed in herself.
So have a look at this ........
Language itself is a labeling phenomenon and every word but a symbol. So what we are looking for here is to reduce the description of experience down to the most fundamental, simple descriptor. That is, describing our experience with minimal interference from the mind - without adding the content of any thoughts or interpretations. (Mind is the term we use for streams of thought. While some would challenge that such a thing as a mind exists, for practical purposes here we will use the term "mind")
Imagine what a baby sees when they first open their eyes.
What would you say they are seeing? Do they have any labels in their mind?
If you asked a five year old what they are seeing, would what they describe be any different to what a baby actually is seeing?
If no, why not?
If yes, how would it be different?
With love
Alan
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