Assistance with true awakening

[Amanita]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I understand the "self" to be a conglomeration of thoughts, which includes memories, fantasies of the future and the everyday commentary of life. It seems to overlay the raw experience of the senses, although, thought it self could be seen as another one of those raw senses in a way. The self/story seems to create this sense of continuity in time

What are you looking for at LU? Assistance with pointing to the true nature of self. I've read through the app and listened to the audio's and this type of pointing seems like it would beneficial. Having someone that's been through a similar process and could point out the blind spots seems invaluable.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I expected the guide to hold my feet to the fire and help point out any inconsistencies in my view. I'll do whatever it takes to see this and expect the guide and help point to what needs to be seen. It comes down to me earnestly doing the looking, can't be done by anyone else.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? About 10 years ago I had generic "mystical experience" out of the blue with no spiritual context or drug use. This created the seeking and I've been doing it ever since. Mainly focused on different sects of Buddhism, but currently find Zen, Dzogchen and Advita as helpful pointers. I have a decent amount of experiencing meditating over the past decade. I started doing more intensive self inquiry a few years ago following the pointers of Sailor Bob, John Wheeler and Peter Brown. As well as the Liberation Unleashed website/book and Awakening True by Lisa Kahale, who I know was a guide in the past.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[poppyseed]

Hi Amanita
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[Amanita]

Sorry about not replying sooner had some issues with my log in, but it's fixed now. Really appreciate you taking the time for this.

Hi Amanita
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Yeah, that's fine.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.

I'll be sure to let you know if I need more time and I'm in EST.

Thanks again!

[poppyseed]

Hi Amanita

Sorry about not replying sooner had some issues with my log in, but it's fixed now. Really appreciate you taking the time for this.

No problem! I’m glad it is sorted and we can start!

I'm in EST

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage.

I'll be sure to let you know if I need more time

Thank you!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[Amanita]

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I expect for thoughts to seem "less sticky" in a way or seen for that they are, just a story, from an experiential view not intellectual.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

Life will go on as it did before, but the perspective and relationship to thought is different.

3. What do you want not to happen?

There's this feeling of not wanting to lose control. It's like there's this subtle effort at trying to keep things/life under my control.

4. What are you hoping for?

Contentment, acceptance of what is rather than the subtle feeling of wanting something that will bring about some more subtle or gross satisfaction.

5. What is missing?

I don't know.

[poppyseed]

Hi Amanita

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

3. What do you want not to happen?

There's this feeling of not wanting to lose control. It's like there's this subtle effort at trying to keep things/life under my control.

Why would something that never existed change things? We will see that “you” never was in control so nothing to lose here. It’s not like “I” will disappear as a result of this inquiry, it simply never existed. An illusion cannot do things.
Fear serves to protect the imaginary self from harm. In this case it protects “you” from changing and losing your ”effectiveness in the world”. You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa? Did the character Santa died or it was a simple drop of belief?
Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary…

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Love
Rali

[Amanita]

Is that OK with you?

Absolutely.

Why would something that never existed change things?

When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change?

No, it still continued on.

Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?

The spirit of Christmas lost its "magic" in a sense but still continued without the belief in Santa.

Did the character Santa died or it was a simple drop of belief?

The belief was seen as false and fell away. I never saw a Santa at the mall afterwards and thought "oh Santa's actually real" again.

If you look for the I, what is there?

There are thoughts that come and go. There's the recognition that thoughts are occurring.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

Looking into each of these is the same result as looking for the I. I can't find some solid doer or thinker. The thoughts keeps coming and going. There's knowing the thoughts and sensations arising though and I can't put a name on that. The sensations and the knowing of the sensations arise in tandem.

Where exactly did you look?

In present experience, can't look anywhere else.

What exactly did you find?

There's what's currently is arising. Sensations, thoughts, feeling etc. The knowing or registering of those sensations i can't really put a word on. It's not definable in a sense. I can feel my fingers typing and body sitting on the chair, thoughts coming about what I want to type. Every moment is subtly different, yet it's being registered or known.

[poppyseed]

Hi Amanita

There's what's currently is arising. Sensations, thoughts, feeling etc. The knowing or registering of those sensations i can't really put a word on. It's not definable in a sense. I can feel my fingers typing and body sitting on the chair, thoughts coming about what I want to type. Every moment is subtly different, yet it's being registered or known.

Good! Thank you! That gives me an idea where to start. Before we begin the inquiry let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for the self and what is actually here in the exercises:
There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.


Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Love
Rali

[Amanita]

You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

Yes, anything other than direct looking is a guess/assumption.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

"Apple" is just an agreed upon label for language. The "apple" can't be found in direct experience. The labels are never the actual experience. You can describe the taste of an apple for a million years, but it will never be accurate compared to taking a bite.

[poppyseed]

Hi Amanita

"Apple" is just an agreed upon label for language. The "apple" can't be found in direct experience. The labels are never the actual experience. You can describe the taste of an apple for a million years, but it will never be accurate compared to taking a bite.

Very good! An “apple” is a label/thought that points to (describes) seeing (colours), smelling, tasting, and feeling (sensations). You can generally say that an “object” is a label that points to seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, and/or feeling but no actual object can be found, do you agree?

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.
Love
Rali

[Amanita]

You can generally say that an “object” is a label that points to seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, and/or feeling but no actual object can be found, do you agree?

You mean that no actual object as a definitive thing right? The so call object is just the senses and the label put on it.

Sitting in a chair
Feeling the body sitting in the chair = just sensations
Seeing parts of the chair when looking down = just color
Hearing the chair when movement occurs = just sound

Driving a car
Seeing the environment and it constantly shifty = many colors shifting
Adjusting focus to mirrors and speed = more color
Feeling the steering wheel = just sensations
Feels the seat = just sensations
Hearing the sounds of the car = just sound
Could go on forever with this one

Typing on a keyboard
Seeing the screen = colors
Feeling the keys = sensations
Hearing the sound of the keys = hearing
Thinking about what to type = thinking

[poppyseed]

Hi Amanita

Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.
How does it feel to see what actually is?

OK… For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?


Love
Rali

[Amanita]

Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.

I'll continue to make this habit.

How does it feel to see what actually is?

Seems like there's more ease and less tension in a way, maybe more relaxed and open. Focusing on the all the labels and defining things seems almost constricting or narrowing.

I didn't get to sit down and focus on the other questions enough today. Will complete it more thoroughly tomorrow.

[poppyseed]

Hi Amanita

I'll continue to make this habit.

Great!

Seems like there's more ease and less tension in a way, maybe more relaxed and open. Focusing on the all the labels and defining things seems almost constricting or narrowing.

Awesome!

I didn't get to sit down and focus on the other questions enough today. Will complete it more thoroughly tomorrow.

Thank you for letting me know! Looking forward to your answers
Love
Rali

[Amanita]

In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?

A thought comes up and when I look for what knows that it comes up I can't find anything.

Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?

No, thoughts are just occurring.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No thoughts arise as they arise. It's an automatic response based on whatever else if going on. I certainly can't have only pleasant thoughts.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No, they just come up.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay?

No the thoughts arise and go away with no one controlling them.

Can the flow of thoughts be changed?

The flow of thoughts are like the flow of everything else, constantly changing but not by someone forcing the change.

Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to?

I can't say. The words are just labels but thoughts arise just like all sensations. Like when a finger stops touching the keyboard the sensation goes away, its just not occurring anymore, it doesn't need to be from somewhere or going to somewhere. It happens until it's not happening.

Do they appear randomly or in a structured way?

Randomly, but it can seem like one thought leads to another thought.

Could you predict the order of their appearance?

Not at all, can't predict the future.

Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?

No

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Know it's only known when it occurs.

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

Thoughts are all or nothing. It's happening or not, there is no middle.

How long does that last?

You can't put a time on it. Even if thinking a sentence the beginning of it vanished by the end of the sentence. It's only the immediate moment.

Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Those thoughts are just more stories about thoughts. In the immediacy that's all gone.

Are thoughts 100% true?

Can't find a true thought. The labels aren't the experience. They can seem to point to things, but the descriptions never come close to capturing the experience.

What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

I'm here. I don't know what that is, but I know I am.