New Member Seeking Guidance

[chrisg2]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Having been on the path for about 6 years, and studying intensively in various buddhist contexts, I'm very familiar with the concept, and to some degree with the experience/direct insight of this. How significant my direct insight into this is, is somewhat unclear to me, which is partially why Im seeking a guide.

What are you looking for at LU?
Upon reflecting on this question, the first sentence that came up was: verification that where I am makes sense to somebody, because its very confusing to me. Additionally, Im curious and hopeful that guidance from someone who knows the territory well can help me complete this project and be free of suffering. I know that I'm meant to complete the project but it's been a tumultuous road and although im in a better place than I was early on, there still is quite a bit of suffering. Im very curious to know if the fetter model really can serve as a useful system and tool for awakening, but feel a bit overwhelmed and unable to apply what Im reading about the fetters to my own situation, and am hopeful that working with a guide can bring clarity to this.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Someone to get a sense of what beliefs Im stuck on. And give me guidance, informed by thier own perspective and experience on where to focus. My practice, and life are a bit haphazard, and although I spend a decent amount of time and energy meditating, inquiring, etc some structure and guidance may be more effective. I feel like Im not being as efficient with my practice as I could be, but without guidance from someone else and insight on where i am/where im going, its hard to reign in on a more efficient practice.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
6 years ago I did my first meditation retreat - a month long vipassana retreat in Thailand. It was very intensive and I reqired myself to a significant degree on that retreat. A handful more retreats, with Shinzen Young and Goenka, after which I started practicing in a more nondual or effortless way quite a bit. Have started taking tai chi this year. Im relatively new to inquiry but have been doing it quite a bit recently with some success.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[poppyseed]

Hi chrisg2
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[chrisg2]

Hi Rali,

Thanks for the message.. That all sounds good, Im ready to start.

[poppyseed]

Hi chrisg2
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

What time zone are in?

Please, in future, when you see a question in blue or “?” in any colour, answer it!
I'm GMT+2. Please let me know what your time zone is.

Thanks for the message.. That all sounds good, Im ready to start.

Great! It’s only my pleasure :)

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open. Please use the quote function for each question so we can have clarity...

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Chris
Are we still doing the inquiry? Is everything OK?
Love
Rali

[chrisg2]

Hi Rali, Im very sorry for the lack of communication. Yes Id like to continue. Ill be better about this moving forward.

is that what you want me to call you?

You can call me Chris

What time zone are in?

EDT (GMT-4)

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

There wont be perpetual confusion, fear and anxiety.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I expect there to be less fixation on thoughts. Probably less thoughts as well. Less anxious striving to prove my worthiness. A deep sense of everything being as it should and not needing to control life as much.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I think I have some fear around being ineffective in the world. I have some belief that being thought oriented makes me accomplish things. So having less thoughts may make me not accomplish the things I want to accomplish.

4. What are you hoping for?

More ease in life. No more trying to figure out who I am, what life is, what death is, and no more trying to prove my worth to others.

5. What is missing?

Freedom from the belief that something is missing.

[chrisg2]

Hi Rali,

I felt inclined to add something to my answer to #5:

5. What is missing?

What is missing/what im striving for is more ease, clarity, and connection. I have several goals in life, and when I wake up there is anxious striving toward these goals as well as a lack of clarity around how to get them. Part of that lack of clarity seems related to feeling of lack and unworthiness, as well as a desire for validation. However, I can feel a shift happening where the goals im striving toward are less and less coming from a place of lack and more and more coming from a place of wanting to serve/provide something of value to others. This is a recent shift, but I suspect that it may ease much of the chaotic and anxious energy which I have typically felt and have been operating from.

[poppyseed]

Hi Chris

EDT (GMT-4)

We have 6h difference. Good to know :)

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

3. What do you want not to happen?

I think I have some fear around being ineffective in the world. I have some belief that being thought oriented makes me accomplish things. So having less thoughts may make me not accomplish the things I want to accomplish.

How can something that never existed cause a change? It’s not like it will disappear as a result of this inquiry, it simply never existed. An illusion cannot do things. Can thoughts do things?
You see fear serves to protect the imaginary self from harm. In this case it protects “you” from changing and losing your ”effectiveness in the world”. You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa? Did the character Santa died or it was a simple drop of belief?
Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary…

What is missing/what im striving for is more ease, clarity, and connection. I have several goals in life, and when I wake up there is anxious striving toward these goals as well as a lack of clarity around how to get them. Part of that lack of clarity seems related to feeling of lack and unworthiness, as well as a desire for validation. However, I can feel a shift happening where the goals im striving toward are less and less coming from a place of lack and more and more coming from a place of wanting to serve/provide something of value to others. This is a recent shift, but I suspect that it may ease much of the chaotic and anxious energy which I have typically felt and have been operating from.

I think you'll be able to find answers for yourself at the end of the inquiry :)
Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Love
Rali

[chrisg2]

Is that OK with you?

Yes

How can something that never existed cause a change?

It can't

Can thoughts do things?

No

When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa? Did the character Santa died or it was a simple drop of belief?

Christmas did not change. The spirit remained the same and just the belief in Santa died. The character Santa didnt die because it was made up.

If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

I can't find an I. But there is still fear, which seems to be a combination of body sensation and subtle imagery.

[poppyseed]

Hi Chris

Christmas did not change. The spirit remained the same and just the belief in Santa died. The character Santa didnt die because it was made up.

Very good!

I can't find an I. But there is still fear, which seems to be a combination of body sensation and subtle imagery.

We’ll come back to this…
Before we start the inquiry let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for the self in the exercises:
There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.


Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[chrisg2]

You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

Right.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

"Apple" refers to other direct experiences. The sensation of taste, the appearance of color, and touch sensations are all there is, and are what we mean by apple. "Apple" refers to these other sensations.

[poppyseed]

Hi Chris

"Apple" refers to other direct experiences. The sensation of taste, the appearance of color, and touch sensations are all there is, and are what we mean by apple. "Apple" refers to these other sensations.

Yes, “apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another label/thought that points to hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste).
Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.
Love
Rali

[chrisg2]

Hi Rali,

Here are a few examples from the day:

Walking the dog
Seeing the dog/leash/trees, simply = image/color (seeing)
Feeling my feet walking on the ground, simply = sensation (feeling)
Hearing the creek, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about which way to turn, simply = thought (thinking)

Taking a Bath
Feeling the warm water, simply = sensation (feeling)
Hearing music, simply = sound (hearing)
Thinking that I need to get out, simply - thought (thinking)
Feeling pressure in my head, simply - sensation (feeling)
Seeing the bath, water, and my body, simply = image/color (seeing)

Shopping at the Supermarket
Seeing the aisles of food, simply = image.color (seeing)
Feeling the basket in my hand, simply = sensation (feeling)
Feeling pressure in my shoulder, simply = sensation(feeling)
Hearing music, simply = sound (hearing)
Subtle thought images appearing and changing, simply = thought (thinking)

[poppyseed]

Hi Chris

Walking the dog
Seeing the dog/leash/trees, simply = image/color (seeing)
Feeling my feet walking on the ground, simply = sensation (feeling)
Hearing the creek, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about which way to turn, simply = thought (thinking)

Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.

How does it feel to see what actually is?

OK… For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?
Love
Rali

[chrisg2]

Hi Rali,

These are deep inquiries, thank you. Please see answers below:

How does it feel to see what actually is?

In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?

No

Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?

No

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

no

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?

No

Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way?

I dont know where they come from. They come from and go to nowhere, but also seem like they come from and go to the same energy that makes up sight,sound,feelings. They appear randomly.

Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?

No

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last?

No. For a moment it did seem like bringing awarness to thought often made them stop in the middle, but upon closer inspection there's nothing you can call "the middle" of a thought. Even if that happens, if a stream of thought stops, it begins again almost right away.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

It can seem like thought has a logical ordered appearance, for example if the thought "one plus two is three" arises, the order of those words seem to have a logical appearance with each word having a relationship to one before and after it, but in reality by the time one word arises the other is gone and there is no evidence in the moment of its relationship to the previous word. By the time"plus" arises, it has no tangible relationship to "one", which has already passed. And by the time "two" comes "plus" has passed.

Are thoughts 100% true?

No

What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

I cant answer this question. To answer it is to reduce the self down to a concept/thought.