The Shift

[Guitarsg]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand this "lower self" or "ego" to be the thing that is constructed by thoughts, memory (which are also thoughts), emotions, etc in which the self attaches and identifies as. A human. A tool maker. Guitar player. American. Male. Angry. Happy. Depressed. Lost. Confused. Found. Etc.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for clarity and truth. And I'm looking for these out of 1.) Virtue of truth in itself and 2.) The hope that once knowing truth, mental anguish will go away, even if pain is there at least I'll know the truth - no longer confused about myself, life and my relation to it.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To be pointed in the right direction to look and inquire. To help me focus in or broad out when needed to see things clearly for myself. To help redirect my looking and my thinking. To go through where I'm at and help use that to redirect or correct.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been seeking for about 12 years. I've read many books, met with many people. The only "practice" I do is I'll spontaneously be still and just dwell in the wonder of everything.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[poppyseed]

Hi Guitarsg
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[Guitarsg]

Hi Rali. It's great to meet you. You may call me Gaige.

What time zone are in?

I'm Eastern Standard Time, Indiana USA. It's currently 5:15am.

I look forward to beginning!
Love,
Gaige

[poppyseed]

Hi Gaige
Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

I'm Eastern Standard Time, Indiana USA. It's currently 5:15am.

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage.

I look forward to beginning!

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[Guitarsg]

What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

Well... I guess I don't really know. I suppose I'll perceive everything and everyone - life - differently, from a new perspective. And then I suppose it will go on from there.

What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I have hopes of mainly being at more peace and contentment with whatever comes of life. An Orthodox Saint/mystic once answered the question of how does one know if they're following the will of God and he responded with basically saying you accept everything that happens in life as it is happening with wonder and awe and do not judge things as good or bad, etc. You accept and love all things as they come. That sounds quite lovely to me.

What do you want not to happen?

I'm not really sure .. I think an underlying fear that has slowly been dropping away is apathy.

What are you hoping for?

I think I answered this in the above question. Perhaps I interpreted it incorrectly. But peace, acceptance, contentment. Truth. I have an equal desire for peace and truth. And I'm not sure if they can go together. Would I be willing to sacrifice peace for the sake of truth? I honestly don't know..

What is missing?

I think what is missing is what I'm searching for. Acceptance. Peace. Truth.

I hope I answered these well.
Love,
Gaige

[poppyseed]

Hi Gaige

I hope I answered these well.

There is no “good” or “bad” answers, only what rings true for you at the moment.

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

What do you want not to happen?

I'm not really sure .. I think an underlying fear that has slowly been dropping away is apathy.

Why would something that never existed change things? We will see that “you” was never in control so nothing to lose here (e.g. excitement). It’s not like “I” will disappear as a result of this inquiry, it simply never existed. An illusion cannot do things.
You see fear serves to protect the imaginary self from harm. In this case it protects “you” from changing and losing your ”humanity”. You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa? Did the character Santa died or it was a simple drop of belief?
Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary… Please let me know if this fear comes in the way of the inquiry in some way.

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?
Love
Rali

[Guitarsg]

Is that OK with you?

Yes, that is okay with me.

Why would something that never existed change things?

I suppose if something never existed to begin with, then nothing that's happening or not happening would change. Sort of like gravity. Scientists have changed what they thought gravity is several times, yet what is actually happening doesn't change based on our belief or understanding of it.

When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa? Did the character Santa died or it was a simple drop of belief?

In one sense, nothing changed. Presents still came just as they always did and in the same way. Gatherings still happened, etc. However, I would say my perception of Christmas and my attitude and feelings probably changed. For example, if someone was under the belief that there was a camera constantly following them and recording them, they would act one way. But once they realized there is no camera at all and never was, they would just likely begin to behave very differently. So in one sense, nothing changed. Yet in another, everything changed.

I think this is where my logical mind begins to twist itself. At the moment there seems to be a self in some sort of way. And there's the assumption that once a perception changes or a realization is made, that behavior then changes. But what is it that can realize the non existence of something? What is it that then changes as a result of that? When you tell me to "look" what is it that is doing the looking? I suppose there is a "self" or "being" of some sort, otherwise there would be no awareness/consciousness/observation. But perhaps that doesn't necessarily imply that there is this individual character.

If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

There have been times and moments where I see things happening on their own. Especially when it's a quick, automatic reaction to something. Sometimes I even see this with my thoughts, just coming along on their own. I sense myself as more of the observer of what's happening. I feel, however, that this self is in the head, scanning around everything that is happening. I can't dig into the brain and pull out the "I". But neither can I do that for thoughts and feelings, yet they exist and are experienced. I have trouble getting behind observation and not experiencing myself as the observer and having the ability to choose what I give attention to. Kind of like a spot light. Everything is there and happening, but I have control of the spot light to choose what to give my attention and focus on. It's in these moments of intense observation that I begin to feel apathy and emotional-less. I begin to feel very detached I guess. Almost like an emotional-ness depression.

So then I focus in on that feeling of detachment and depression. Where I feel it at. I feel it in my chest and my head. Mainly chest. I see that this feeling is coming about on its own. I didn't choose to feel this. It is there. And I'm aware of it. I'm putting my attention on it. Then I begin to have thoughts of how this may not be a good feeling and other random thoughts about myself and life that are seemingly very negative. I see these thoughts happening on their own and am aware of them. This then gives a little bit of relief actually. Not identifying with the thoughts and feelings or taking them as true, but as simply happening on their own. Then all that's left is this sense of detachment. It feels as if I'm in control of the spot light of attention and focus.

So when you say there's no "witness", I think that also means no observer, no "spot light" to direct attention. For whatever reason, while typing that out, I chuckled. Not in a mocking way, but a humorous, almost relief, joke kind of way. And it just happened. And I noticed it. I had no choice to notice it. I just did. When I'm observing the action of chuckling and feeling the little joy that came out of that, I just noticed it. I didn't choose to notice it. There was no controlling a spot light. It almost felt like a relief. And a joke at the same time.

I apologize for how long the responses are. I figured it'd be best to type it all out here in the beginning so you can know better where I'm at and better redirect me. And when I just typed "where I'm at" I chuckled with the thought that spontaneously came, "I'm here. I'm no where. I'm everywhere. Just this". Wondering what that even means to say "where I'm at"?

[poppyseed]

Hey Gaige
Thank you for your detailed reply! That gives me an idea where to start. Before we begin the inquiry let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for the self and what is actually here in the exercises:
There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.


Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[Guitarsg]

right?

Yes, I would agree. Only by direct encounter can I know for certain.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

For this exercise I used my vape since it was already in my hand. And I will admit, at first I was a little confused and began thinking about Plato's forms and how the essence of things can exist "out there" and we as humans merge these essences with the material world. After letting myself get through all of those thoughts I was able to clear my mind and do as you asked. And it became much clearer.

I can feel it. The experience of feeling it is what my thinking labels as smooth, yet wavey.

I can see it: my mind labels it as lime green, orange.

Smell it: my mind labels it as a kiwi scent.

These experiences in and of themselves are very real. At least to me. There's something here being known through experience. And the experience of thoughts in the moment begin giving words and labels to the experience. The thoughts are real, because I'm aware of them. But the content of the thought - the word itself - is imaginary in a way. I can experience color for what it is without labels. And if the labels change, the experience of the color does not. The label itself - the content of the thought - is empty.

I could have been holding something else that my mind would level a vape, but it would look different, feel different, smell different, taste different. It is not the same. The mind simply tries to categorize the endless qualia of reality and the experience.

When I look for "vape", I only experience the feel of it, smell of it, taste of it, sense of it. I experience and observe the thought "vape". But the thought/label "vape" isn't to be found. Only in the mind of thoughts that are collecting everything that is actually real into one word to try to communicate. But "vape" doesn't really point to anything real. Only the actual experience of the things themselves.

[poppyseed]

Hey

When I look for "vape", I only experience the feel of it, smell of it, taste of it, sense of it. I experience and observe the thought "vape". But the thought/label "vape" isn't to be found. Only in the mind of thoughts that are collecting everything that is actually real into one word to try to communicate. But "vape" doesn't really point to anything real. Only the actual experience of the things themselves.

Very good! ! A “vape” is a label/thought that points to (describes) seeing (colours), smelling, tasting, and feeling (sensations). You can generally say that an “object”/”things” is a label that points to seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, and/or feeling but no actual object/thing can be found, do you agree? They are no solid things, but just seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, and/or feeling (verbs to describe the flux of it), yes?

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Love
Rali

[Guitarsg]

You can generally say that an “object”/”things” is a label that points to seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, and/or feeling but no actual object/thing can be found, do you agree? They are no solid things, but just seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, and/or feeling (verbs to describe the flux of it), yes?

I agree that when I look at a "table" I only see the colors and wood grain and sunlight on it. I can feel its texture. But I can't find "table". Table is just a word/thought that represents the temporary gathering of all these things that are actually known and experienced. Much like a baby would probably see all things.

I don't know if I understand what you mean by "there are no solid things" .. this wood feels solid. My hand does not go through it.

I tried most of the day yesterday to try and simply see things for what they were without labels. It was difficult. I would see a basket, but just see the color, but would say the color in my head. But then I would try to see the thought of the word color as just that, a thought of a word and the word doesn't exist. But the experience of seeing the basket and its color is very real.

I used these flowers for the example.

Seeing orange. Pink. Red. Shiney.
Smelling... I'm not sure I can describe.
Feeling soft. Fuzzy. Hard. Smooth. Bump
Tasting root beer im drinking
Hear the crackling of old Dry leaves

[poppyseed]

Hi Gaige

I agree that when I look at a "table" I only see the colors and wood grain and sunlight on it. I can feel its texture. But I can't find "table". Table is just a word/thought that represents the temporary gathering of all these things that are actually known and experienced. Much like a baby would probably see all things.

I don't know if I understand what you mean by "there are no solid things" .. this wood feels solid. My hand does not go through it.

So if we have to use DE labels to describe the experience of the table it would be:
Thought describing the experience, simply = DE experience
Seeing the table, simply = colour/shape (seeing)
Felling the solidity of the wood, simply = sensation (feeling)
My hand touching the table (my hand not going through it), simply = sensation (feeling)
So there are sensations and colours but not an actual table. Does that make more sense?

I used these flowers for the example.
Seeing orange. Pink. Red. Shiney.
Smelling... I'm not sure I can describe.
Feeling soft. Fuzzy. Hard. Smooth. Bump
Tasting root beer im drinking
Hear the crackling of old Dry leaves

I think you didn’t get the idea of the exercise. What you describe as DE are still labels/thoughts. The description of your daily activities should have been described as following using the DE labels
Seeing an orange flower, simply = colour (seeing)
Smelling the flower, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling soft, fuzzy, hard, smooth, a bump = sensation (feeling)
Tasting root beer, simply = taste (tasting)
Drinking the root beer, simply = sensation (feeling)
Hear the crackling of old Dry leaves, simply = sound (hearing)

To make it a bit clearer, I’ll give you another exercise:
There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.

Also please give me some more examples of your daily life, broken down into the DE categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the cup of coffee example from my previous post

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Gaige
Are we still doing the inquiry? Is everything OK?
Love
Rali

[Guitarsg]

Hi Gaige
Are we still doing the inquiry? Is everything OK?
Love
Rali

Hi Rali. There for awhile things were not so fine and I abandoned this inquiry and forum. And I am very sorry that I didn't simply message back ending the forum. It was honestly forgotten for a bit and then just seemed too late.

I've lately been allowing all my emotions and feelings be without resisting them or not wanting them to be there and that has had an incredible impact to the extent that I'd like to continue this inquiry.

I know it's been a very long time, but I'd like to continue. I just didn't know how to go about restarting over with you or another guide. So I appreciate you guiding me into the right direction of getting started again. Thank you!
Gaige

[poppyseed]

Hi Gaige

It’s been a while! I’m happy to see you back!

I know it's been a very long time, but I'd like to continue. I just didn't know how to go about restarting over with you or another guide. So I appreciate you guiding me into the right

I’m happy to continue the inquiry with you if that is what you want. I could also ask around if you prefer another guide. Please let me know, what suits you best

Provided, that you still want to continue with me, I would suggest reading through the previous posts (there are not too many), just to get the momentum back and make sure that you know how to look. I would also want to know what has changed since the last time we spoke with regards to expectations.
Let’s revisit:
If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?
Love
Rali