Spiral out

[Protarkus]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? That there is no permanent self, self is just a concept

What are you looking for at LU? Pointers to “feel” that there is no self, i just get it conceptually and i m searching for help. Maybe tecniques or just new hints. I’ve read that with registration i can get your guide to download too

What do you expect from a guided conversation? Help, pointers, guide to help me in understanding that there is no real self ( i know that the word understanding is not 100% accurate cause it’s not a thing to get at conceptual level but please understand what i mean…)

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I had some meditation (breath) and self inquiry (ramana maharshi)

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

You've been very patient. The forum is a bit busy right now and we are training some new guides, but for the moment, it's a bit slow.

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.
Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Loving,

[Protarkus]

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

Nice to meet you Stacy!

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day

Ok, I will write you every evening around this time.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it

I have read both disclaimer and FAQ

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation

Ok, i have to admit that i'm a very "conceptual" guy, I'm reading a lot, trying many practices... I will stop it all while I'm with you, I promise.

How will life change?

I don't know how things will change; I expect some kind of "shift in perspective." Perhaps I'll slow down the constant labeling mechanism in my mind.

How will you change?

I don't know this too... maybe I will cease to exist? :)

What will be different?

I expect that all will be the same but at the same time "different"...

What is missing?

What I feel is missing is the awareness of true reality. Mainly, it's curiosity that drives me.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

You can call me Matt! I'm in Rome, Italy, so GMT+1 (it's 8PM here now)

I want to express my gratitude for the time you will dedicate to me. I am truly happy to embark on this journey!
One last thing: I am not a native English speaker, so forgive any grammatical inaccuracies!

[Anastacia42]

Hi Matt,

All good.

So, now, what comes up when reading there is no "self," never has been and never will be? That it is all a made-up story?

Loving,

[Protarkus]

Hi Stacy!

So, now, what comes up when reading there is no "self," never has been and never will be? That it is all a made-up story?

Well, let's say I find it reasonable. I completely resonate with the idea that everything is a made-up story, or rather a jumble of labels taken more or less randomly from a thousand experiences throughout life. Upon reflection, I understand that "I" is just the product of thoughts.

Just to give you some additional information about it:

• I can "see" at 90% that there is no free will: In the sense that by paying close attention to the things that happen (I would have previously said 'that I do'), I realize that I don't have real decision-making power, and the existence of a decision-maker is illusory. Nevertheless, sometimes I can't help but think that "I decided this"

• I understand that what I have always considered reality is actually a projection of my mind. The brain does not have direct access to the external world; what appear as 'things' are reconstructions based on the input from my senses.

However these are all conceptual understandings; indeed, I still perceive things, time, space, distances and myself as real.

All the best,
Matt

[Anastacia42]

Yes, let's ignore concepts & just LOOK.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Loving,

[Protarkus]

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

100% agree

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Very clear, let’s go!

It’s time to sleep here, thank you so much, I can't wait to hear from you again! See you tomorrow.

Matt

[Anastacia42]

That's great, Matt.

So, for tomorrow:


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[Protarkus]

Hi Stacy!

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Okay, I tried to closely observe my actions while doing them, attempting to avoid a mechanical copy/paste and striving to be as aware as possible. I have to say it hasn’t been easy; my mind wanted to assign a ‘meaning’ to any perception as soon as possible.

Here are my attempts:

During breakfast:
Seeing out of the window, simply= image/color
Smelling cappuccino, simply = smell
Feeling the hardness of the cup, simply = sensation
Tasting a cookie, simply = taste
Hearing the children screaming in the living room, simply = sound
Thought about which thought i should write for this exercise, simply = thought

While I was brushing my teeth:
Seeing a glass, simply= image/color
Smelling toothpaste, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of water, simply = sensation
Tasting toothpaste flavour in mouth, simply = taste
Hearing toothbrush noise, simply = sound
Thought about the english translations of these things i just wrote, simply = thought

Dinner:
Seeing my room, simply= image/color
Smelling hamburger, simply = smell
Feeling coldness of water glass, simply = sensation
Tasting hamburger, simply = taste
Hearing news on tv, simply = sound
Thought about how good is this hamburger, simply = thought

I tried to do this other times but partial (during a pause while making sport, seeing, hearing, feelings and thoughts without tasting or smelling, etc...).

Sincerely I felt it was a bit forced, I hope I'm doing it well.

Thank you again for your help, "I" really appreciate (simply = thought :D)

Matt

[Anastacia42]

Good, Matt. You've got it. Now this:


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,

[Protarkus]

Hello Stacy!
First of all, I would like to make a clarification. For this exercise, I encountered a "linguistic" issue. For the first block, no problem; for the second, I tried to write the events in two different ways (in italian):

Observing, as in "I am observing" without "I am"
Observing, as in "there is some observing" (more like there is "to observe" or "observation")

I could also try in english, I actually think I understand the difference but I wanted to be sure; in your opinion is there a better choice??

Perhaps it's the same, perhaps not. Let's say the sense in both cases for me is to "depersonalize" or disidentify the action.

Anyway, here is the result of the exercise:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

I feel both "true" at the same level

2. What is here without labels?

Don't know if i get the question correctly; I woulkd answer "just experience". Without labels there is just pure experience like "seeing", "hearing", and so on

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

It seems that they just describe it, the "raw" experience is the same, then comes the labeling and the "meaning" and the add-ons

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

I noticed just a very subtle difference. I say this because the difference was so subtle that I fear being influenced by previous knowledge or suggestion. by the way I felt some "tension" in the first case (with "I"). Mainly in the area around the neck. In the second case I felt I paid more attention to "awareness" of happenings so I was more relaxed and a little "delocalized".
I repeat, very very subtle differences. Maybe I should repeat the exercise in a quieter setting; there was a bit of confusion at home at that time :)

Please give me a feedback about the language issue (hope i've been clear)!
I'll try again today and I will write to you this evening as usual!

Thank you so much and have a nice day!
Matt

[Anastacia42]

Hi Matt,

Leaving out "I" is the simplest & is sufficient.

1. No the second is truer. We'll come back to this.

2, 3, 4. Good.

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.

We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

We have a couple of support groups that are meeting via teleconference and I'll give you the information on that.

There are 3 meetings.

Vince Shubert runs one on the weekends. Write to vinceschubert@gmail.com for the link & schedule. There's one later today.

Luchana & Lubo run one on Thursdays. Write to Luchana at luchanauzunova@gmail.com

Ilona holds a monthly meeting. Write admin@ilonaciunaite.com for that link & schedule

Loving,

[Protarkus]

Hi stacy!
Ok I think I got it, you’ve been so clear.

What is found?

I got what you say. As i remembered a lie I suddenly felt it clear. In the heart zone. Accelerated heartbeat at first, clear contraction and a very strange sensation like heaviness and lightness togheter, not a good one…

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie

Clearly you don’t know me… :) just joking

Do you see that?

Yes, I clearly see this time. From this new exercise i see that in the previous one i felt like the same but with less intensity. Is like now i thougth a big lie, while i still think that the “I” lie is a little one (yes i know, hyperconceptualizing again…).

Thank you so much,
Matt

[Anastacia42]

Excellent.

Let's bring this all together:

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise. Google for a picture of an apple.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Have fun and let me know what you find out.

Loving