Exhausted from seeking

[Marta40]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That there is no separate entity or being called Marta outside of thought. There is nothing inside this body looking out through the eyes or making decisions. Marta is just the name of the body.

What are you looking for at LU?
A shift in perspective that everyone talks about and end to psychological suffering. I have always heard that awakening is self-confirming and obvious. Even the LU FAQ says this. That self-confirming shift in perspective hasn't happened here. There is still some suffering and resistance to what is happening in certain areas of life (although not as much as there used to be). However, it still feels like something is not complete and I am missing something although I cannot put my finger on what that is. I don't feel like I have seen the truth about how reality is.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I have read the LU book and read through a few of the conversations on this forum and did the exercises, however, the shift still has not happened. I am hoping something will be different if I work directly with a guide. I expect that the guide will ask me questions about what is happening in my direct experience.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I first heard the words non-duality and awakening 3.5 years ago and intense spiritual seeking since then. I did a two month online intensive with one teacher, I had an awakening session with another teacher and I had a one-on-one session with a non-duality speaker. I have been practicing some form of meditation for 3 years and it feels like I have read every non-duality book ever written. I'm not exactly sure when it happened but I am no longer able to read any books about non-duality / awakening. Every time I try to pick up another book I cannot get past the first few sentences. I also no longer have an urge to watch any more you tube videos or learn anything else about non-duality. I feel sick of it all and I just want this whole search to be over.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Elad]

Hi Marta, my name is Elad and I would be happy to do this exploration with you, if we see that it makes sense. Please read and respond to the following points.

1. During this process we will attend only to your own direct experience. We will not be discussing theories or beliefs or other methods, including from non-duality and etc. I will ask you questions and give exercises and you will look and answer me from your direct experience.

2. The two most important ingredients in this process are your wish to see what is true and your willingness to look deeply at questions, give wholehearted engagement to experiments/exercises presented to you, and report your experience here with 100% honesty.

3. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:


http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


4. For the process to be focused and fruitful, I like to make an agreement that both guide and client (i.e you and me if we do this together) respond on this thread every day, and in the case of special circumstances where we cannot, still touch space here on the thread to say so, the day before or on the day. In the same spirit, I work with people who have the motivation and availability to make this process a primary priority in their life for the duration of the cooperation. If any of this does not fit your life rhythm, style or preferences, please let me know and another guide will work with you.

Warmly,
Elad

[Marta40]

Hi Elad.

Thank you so much for working with me. I am very grateful.

1. During this process we will attend only to your own direct experience. We will not be discussing theories or beliefs or other methods, including from non-duality and etc. I will ask you questions and give exercises and you will look and answer me from your direct experience.

I understand. I am tired of theories and beliefs and if I never hear the word non-duality ever again that is fine by me.

2. The two most important ingredients in this process are your wish to see what is true and your willingness to look deeply at questions, give wholehearted engagement to experiments/exercises presented to you, and report your experience here with 100% honesty.

I agree.

3. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:

I have read both documents and I do not have any doubts or questions.

4. For the process to be focused and fruitful, I like to make an agreement that both guide and client (i.e you and me if we do this together) respond on this thread every day, and in the case of special circumstances where we cannot, still touch space here on the thread to say so, the day before or on the day. In the same spirit, I work with people who have the motivation and availability to make this process a primary priority in their life for the duration of the cooperation. If any of this does not fit your life rhythm, style or preferences, please let me know and another guide will work with you.

I agree. I am able and willing to make this process the priority in my life and will post every day.

[Elad]

Hi Elad.

Thank you so much for working with me. I am very grateful.

1. During this process we will attend only to your own direct experience. We will not be discussing theories or beliefs or other methods, including from non-duality and etc. I will ask you questions and give exercises and you will look and answer me from your direct experience.

I understand. I am tired of theories and beliefs and if I never hear the word non-duality ever again that is fine by me.

2. The two most important ingredients in this process are your wish to see what is true and your willingness to look deeply at questions, give wholehearted engagement to experiments/exercises presented to you, and report your experience here with 100% honesty.

I agree.

3. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:

I have read both documents and I do not have any doubts or questions.

4. For the process to be focused and fruitful, I like to make an agreement that both guide and client (i.e you and me if we do this together) respond on this thread every day, and in the case of special circumstances where we cannot, still touch space here on the thread to say so, the day before or on the day. In the same spirit, I work with people who have the motivation and availability to make this process a primary priority in their life for the duration of the cooperation. If any of this does not fit your life rhythm, style or preferences, please let me know and another guide will work with you.

I agree. I am able and willing to make this process the priority in my life and will post every day.

Hi Marta, great, let’s begin. Looking at direct experience here/now, not on thoughts and beliefs, can you find a separate self anywhere? If you can, write what/where. And if you cannot, look in direct experience here/now, again not thoughts, beliefs, comparisons and expectations, is there anything telling you "the shift has not happened"?

[Marta40]

Looking at direct experience here/now, not on thoughts and beliefs, can you find a separate self anywhere?

There is something that feels like it's in the head. Like that is where I am. However, when I look I do not find anything. All I find is empty space. When I look at my chest to see if there is a self in there all I find is some chest tightness and empty space. When I look visually there is a computer and fingers typing and my arms but there is no self in the view. When I look at thoughts, there are now thoughts asking what am I even looking for and if there was an actual self what would that even look like and I will never get this. The thoughts don't mean there is a separate self. They are just thoughts and I see them come from and disappear into nothing.

And if you cannot, look in direct experience here/now, again not thoughts, beliefs, comparisons and expectations, is there anything telling you "the shift has not happened"?

When I look into direct experience it doesn't say anything about a shift happening or not happening. I need to go into thoughts and what I have read before about it being self-confirming and obvious when the shift happens. I feel like direct experience doesn't say anything about anything. It is just sitting on a chair, typing, looking out the window. All the narrative about the shift happening or not happening is taking place in the head, in thoughts. But it still feels like there is a body here that is doing stuff that is separate from everything else.

[Elad]

Good, this is mostly clear seeing. Now stay with the direct experience that doesn’t say anything. Is there anything else then thoughts that says anything is missing? If you can see that nothing in actual experience says anything is missing or not realized, just habitual thoughts referring to nothing real, then spend some time right there. Then write me about it.



"But it still feels like there is a body here that is doing stuff that is separate from everything else."

Let’s look into "it feels like" what does that mean? Does sensation in any direct way say there is an I or a separate self? Or is it just a very habitual and deeply held belief?

[Marta40]

Now stay with the direct experience that doesn’t say anything. Is there anything else then thoughts that says anything is missing?

No there is nothing in direct experience that says something is missing other than thoughts. I need thoughts to tell me that something is missing or that something is wrong.

If you can see that nothing in actual experience says anything is missing or not realized, just habitual thoughts referring to nothing real, then spend some time right there. Then write me about it.

I've tried to stay with just direct experience for as much as the day as I could. When I do this without referencing thought, it feels very peaceful. It's quite enjoyable to just stare at a wall. It's just what is happening in the visual field and sounds without the commentary behind it. Nothing feels good or bad. I'm not sure what else to say about it.

"But it still feels like there is a body here that is doing stuff that is separate from everything else."

Let’s look into "it feels like" what does that mean? Does sensation in any direct way say there is an I or a separate self? Or is it just a very habitual and deeply held belief?

No the sensation does not say there is a separate self, the sensation is just something that is happening in direct experience. However, the sensation is happening in the body - it's not happening in the chair across the room. In direct experience, the body is separate from the chair and everything else in the room. So there is still this feeling of separation.

[Elad]

"I've tried to stay with just direct experience for as much as the day as I could. When I do this without referencing thought, it feels very peaceful. It's quite enjoyable to just stare at a wall. It's just what is happening in the visual field and sounds without the commentary behind it. Nothing feels good or bad. I'm not sure what else to say about it."

This is good spend more time there. If nothing in direct experience is missing, is there any reason to look for something else?

"No the sensation does not say there is a separate self, the sensation is just something that is happening in direct experience."

Good, clear.


"However, the sensation is happening in the body - it's not happening in the chair across the room."

Are you sure, look again. Feel the place where butt meats chair. Can you find butt and chair and border in direct experience or only sensation?

Can you find awareness separate from anything in the total experience of so called outside and so-called inside?

"In direct experience, the body is separate from the chair and everything else in the room. "

Again look deeper. Conventionally speaking one hand is separate from the other. This capacity to experience separation for practical purposes won't go away. What goes away is the illusion that the hands are separated in some ultimate way. They are part of one body and only separate for practical purposes, same body and chair, it just operates habitually and automatically.

"So there is still this feeling of separation."

Look deeper, what is this "feeling of separation"? Can you find anything else in direct experience then a belief in in separation (thought that is not reality itself) plus sensation (doesn't say anything about separation in itself) plus a belief those two together constitute a feeling (another habitual automatic thought/belief that is not direct experience).

[Marta40]

This is good spend more time there. If nothing in direct experience is missing, is there any reason to look for something else?

No there is no reason to look for anything else and when I am in direct experience, without thoughts, everything is fine and I am not looking or searching for anything. However, I always get pulled out by thoughts. It feels like there is something that is just being in direct experience (I'm not sure what that something is, maybe the body) and then the body gets pulled out of direct experience and into thoughts. When I say me or I, I'm not even quite sure what I am talking about - I guess the body. The body is the one typing this and the body is the one trying to stay in direct experience and the body is the one getting pulled out by thoughts.

"However, the sensation is happening in the body - it's not happening in the chair across the room."

Are you sure, look again. Feel the place where butt meats chair. Can you find butt and chair and border in direct experience or only sensation?

No, I cannot. It all melts into one sensation - butt on chair, feet on ground, elbows on table and hands on head. There is no border between one sensation or the other.

In direct experience, the body is separate from the chair and everything else in the room. "

Again look deeper. Conventionally speaking one hand is separate from the other. This capacity to experience separation for practical purposes won't go away. What goes away is the illusion that the hands are separated in some ultimate way. They are part of one body and only separate for practical purposes, same body and chair, it just operates habitually and automatically

.
I'm not sure I get this part. Is this the same as when I am dreaming and there is my dream body and a dream chair and although they appear separate in the dream, they are both made of the same stuff - dream stuff?

"So there is still this feeling of separation."

Look deeper, what is this "feeling of separation"? Can you find anything else in direct experience then a belief in in separation (thought that is not reality itself) plus sensation (doesn't say anything about separation in itself) plus a belief those two together constitute a feeling (another habitual automatic thought/belief that is not direct experience).

Yes, because even if I ignore thoughts and beliefs and even sensations, in the visual field the car parked across the street is over there, it is not over here where the computer and fingers typing are.

[Marta40]

Sorry, I forgot to address this point in my last reply from earlier today:

Can you find awareness separate from anything in the total experience of so called outside and so-called inside?

No, from what I see everything is in Awareness. Both the inside of the body and the tree outside the window are happening in Awareness. I think Awareness is not sperate from anything as everything is taking place inside Awareness. Sort of like space. Everything is happening inside space and without space there couldn't be any objects.

[Elad]

"No there is no reason to look for anything else and when I am in direct experience, without thoughts, everything is fine and I am not looking or searching for anything. However, I always get pulled out by thoughts. It feels like there is something that is just being in direct experience (I'm not sure what that something is, maybe the body) and then the body gets pulled out of direct experience and into thoughts. When I say me or I, I'm not even quite sure what I am talking about - I guess the body. The body is the one typing this and the body is the one trying to stay in direct experience and the body is the one getting pulled out by thoughts. "

I'm glad you say "I guess" it's the body being pulled out. It indicates awareness that this is a story, not direct experience. Can you find what gets pulled out or even what it means to be pulled out, as anything else then a thought, a story? Does anything tell you you need to know what "it" is, except a belief?

"No, I cannot. It all melts into one sensation - butt on chair, feet on ground, elbows on table and hands on head. There is no border between one sensation or the other. "

Very clear.

"I'm not sure I get this part. Is this the same as when I am dreaming and there is my dream body and a dream chair and although they appear separate in the dream, they are both made of the same stuff - dream stuff?"

Yes this is a good thought analogy. What we are going for here though is not conceptual understanding, but direct seeing that the concepts of separation between self and chair, here and there, do not indicate absolute separation existing independent of thought, but rather a conceptual separation, that is useful in some contexts but not absolute. So in some contexts it makes sense to speak about my right hand and left hand as separate, but at the same time I can see that they are not separate in an ultimate sense. All expressions of "one body", "one life", "one whole". After awakening separations keep existing on one level and at the same time we see that it's just practical concepts not absolute separation independent of thought.

"So there is still this feeling of separation."

Look deeper, what is this "feeling of separation"? Can you find anything else in direct experience then a belief in in separation (thought that is not reality itself) plus sensation (doesn't say anything about separation in itself) plus a belief those two together constitute a feeling (another habitual automatic thought/belief that is not direct experience).

Please look at this again, in particular what I wrote about the "feeling". Spend some time looking in direct experience and let me know what you see.

Will answer the rest later

[Elad]

Sorry, I forgot to address this point in my last reply from earlier today:

Can you find awareness separate from anything in the total experience of so called outside and so-called inside?

No, from what I see everything is in Awareness. Both the inside of the body and the tree outside the window are happening in Awareness. I think Awareness is not sperate from anything as everything is taking place inside Awareness. Sort of like space. Everything is happening inside space and without space there couldn't be any objects.

Right. Can we even say in direct experience that phenomena are in awareness or awareness is in phenomena? Or is that conceptua as well and in direct experience neither subject(ivity) nor object(ivity) can be found separate from the other and from language?

[Marta40]

I'm glad you say "I guess" it's the body being pulled out. It indicates awareness that this is a story, not direct experience. Can you find what gets pulled out or even what it means to be pulled out, as anything else then a thought, a story? Does anything tell you you need to know what "it" is, except a belief?

Right, I see what you are saying. There is just being in direct experience, then a thought pops up, then attention goes into that thought and then another thought pops us that says "I just got pulled into thoughts again and out of direct experience." and then an entire story starts about what is it that is even resting in direct experience and getting pulled out. Last night when I was just resting in direct experience and I closed my eyes, there was a thought that popped up right away saying "my eyes are closed" but without that thought there is just a black screen - that is what is happening in direct experience. There is the living room and the body sitting on the couch and then there is a black screen + the thought my eyes are closed.

Yes this is a good thought analogy. What we are going for here though is not conceptual understanding, but direct seeing that the concepts of separation between self and chair, here and there, do not indicate absolute separation existing independent of thought, but rather a conceptual separation, that is useful in some contexts but not absolute. So in some contexts it makes sense to speak about my right hand and left hand as separate, but at the same time I can see that they are not separate in an ultimate sense. All expressions of "one body", "one life", "one whole". After awakening separations keep existing on one level and at the same time we see that it's just practical concepts not absolute separation independent of thought.

I see that now - that dream scenario was just a thought and me trying to understand. Is the "one body" everything that is happening in direct experience then?

"So there is still this feeling of separation."

Look deeper, what is this "feeling of separation"? Can you find anything else in direct experience then a belief in in separation (thought that is not reality itself) plus sensation (doesn't say anything about separation in itself) plus a belief those two together constitute a feeling (another habitual automatic thought/belief that is not direct experience).
Please look at this again, in particular what I wrote about the "feeling". Spend some time looking in direct experience and let me know what you see.

Please look at this again, in particular what I wrote about the "feeling". Spend some time looking in direct experience and let me know what you see.

It's hard to pin-point exactly what the feeling of separation is. I want to say it's because the body feels separate from everything else in the room, but that feels very weak, and it feels like something I should just say since I don't really have an answer but that is the only thing that I can come up with. Even the sensations that I would normally say are in the body - I can't say that is true. The sensations just feel like they are here but not necessarily in the body. I am not sure why the body feels separate, I am a little confused right now about what this feeling of separation is.

Can we even say in direct experience that phenomena are in awareness or awareness is in phenomena? Or is that conceptua as well and in direct experience neither subject(ivity) nor object(ivity) can be found separate from the other and from language?

I see, no you cannot. You cannot separate awareness from phenomena. There is not some separate object that was put inside of awareness, because where would that object come from. When I am looking at the tree outside the window, it is thought that labels that as I tree. If we didn't have language, there would be no tree, there would just be that tree-shaped thing.

[Marta40]

Hey Elad - I need to add to my previous post as right after I submitted it, I received an annoying work email and the entire body just tensed up and felt so condensed and all my attention went on the body and I definitely felt that feeling of separation. It was a combination of the tense feelings condensing in the body, the feeling of resistance that this shouldn't be happening along with not so nice thoughts about the person that sent the email. That was about 5 minutes ago and now that everything has passed it is harder to feel the separation. I don't know if any of this makes sense but that is just what happened and I felt the need to write it.

[Elad]

I'm glad you say "I guess" it's the body being pulled out. It indicates awareness that this is a story, not direct experience. Can you find what gets pulled out or even what it means to be pulled out, as anything else then a thought, a story? Does anything tell you you need to know what "it" is, except a belief?

Right, I see what you are saying. There is just being in direct experience, then a thought pops up, then attention goes into that thought and then another thought pops us that says "I just got pulled into thoughts again and out of direct experience." and then an entire story starts about what is it that is even resting in direct experience and getting pulled out. Last night when I was just resting in direct experience and I closed my eyes, there was a thought that popped up right away saying "my eyes are closed" but without that thought there is just a black screen - that is what is happening in direct experience. There is the living room and the body sitting on the couch and then there is a black screen + the thought my eyes are closed.

Yes this is a good thought analogy. What we are going for here though is not conceptual understanding, but direct seeing that the concepts of separation between self and chair, here and there, do not indicate absolute separation existing independent of thought, but rather a conceptual separation, that is useful in some contexts but not absolute. So in some contexts it makes sense to speak about my right hand and left hand as separate, but at the same time I can see that they are not separate in an ultimate sense. All expressions of "one body", "one life", "one whole". After awakening separations keep existing on one level and at the same time we see that it's just practical concepts not absolute separation independent of thought.

I see that now - that dream scenario was just a thought and me trying to understand. Is the "one body" everything that is happening in direct experience then?

"So there is still this feeling of separation."

Look deeper, what is this "feeling of separation"? Can you find anything else in direct experience then a belief in in separation (thought that is not reality itself) plus sensation (doesn't say anything about separation in itself) plus a belief those two together constitute a feeling (another habitual automatic thought/belief that is not direct experience).
Please look at this again, in particular what I wrote about the "feeling". Spend some time looking in direct experience and let me know what you see.

Please look at this again, in particular what I wrote about the "feeling". Spend some time looking in direct experience and let me know what you see.

It's hard to pin-point exactly what the feeling of separation is. I want to say it's because the body feels separate from everything else in the room, but that feels very weak, and it feels like something I should just say since I don't really have an answer but that is the only thing that I can come up with. Even the sensations that I would normally say are in the body - I can't say that is true. The sensations just feel like they are here but not necessarily in the body. I am not sure why the body feels separate, I am a little confused right now about what this feeling of separation is.

Can we even say in direct experience that phenomena are in awareness or awareness is in phenomena? Or is that conceptua as well and in direct experience neither subject(ivity) nor object(ivity) can be found separate from the other and from language?

I see, no you cannot. You cannot separate awareness from phenomena. There is not some separate object that was put inside of awareness, because where would that object come from. When I am looking at the tree outside the window, it is thought that labels that as I tree. If we didn't have language, there would be no tree, there would just be that tree-shaped thing.

Lots of clarity here Marta.

Re "one body", that is evocative/metaphoric language, a "pointer". In reality could any words capture THIS WHOLE?

Re the feeling of separation. Great work paying attention. Now please look more. Can you find anything in direct feeling/sensation that says it is "separation"? If not, is there anything in the feeling/sensation that actually necessitates the belief in separation, except the automatic habit of thinking thoughts that says so, beliefs?