jefe's thread

[jefe2060]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I've had the experience we are talking about here, and have both read fairly widely on the subject and think about it often. Essentially, the "self" as commonly referred to is a construction of perception, thought, and sensations-all of which arise and pass away in consciousness, and can therefore not be the "solid" "things" we take them to be.

What are you looking for at LU? A reliable, straightforward, simple method / process I can use to access, deepen, and stabilise the true nature of being, and a supportive, inclusive, non-sectarian, community who's orientation is to freely give and receive what I have described above.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I don't know what to expect, but I would hope that I will feel at home with people I meet here. I hope for kindness, competence, experience, intelligence, compassion, and effectiveness. I hope to no longer have to struggle to live in the presence of the insight/ experience I had, or to be confused, as I have been frequently since it happened. I know what was going on when I "accidentally" experienced a dissolving, sliding away, and release from who and what I had considered myself to be, but this clarity only lasted for a relatively short time and I don't know how to "find" it again, no matter how well I understand it conceptually.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? Recent and past periods of meditation practice, readings, lectures, including a fair amount of non religious, non-dual material. I've done a lot of mind-body work as a teacher (taiji, qigong, etc) and practitioner (energy bodywork), and have even developed contemplative exercises for my students that I have recently realised open into the experience of non-duality, as does my own practice of these things, but I still scratch my head and wonder a fair amount.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Anastacia42]

Good morning (here in Colorado, US)

First, for most of us, the state of awakening if you mean the blissful sense of connectedness, comes & goes. It doesn't "stabilize." It's lather, rinse, repeat as long as we seem to be living in the relative world of bodies.

Every time we believe an untrue thought our clear awareness slips.

The Work of Byron Katie is excellent for clearing untrue beliefs. www.the work.com. There are many other ways.

Some of us pursue seeing further through the Ten Fetters of Buddhism. There's a group meeting about that too.

Here at LU we only come to see no self, Fetter 1. Usually Fetter 2 Doubts, and Fetter 3 Rites & Rituals drop at the same time.

We have a couple of support groups that are meeting via teleconference and I'll give you the information on that.

There are 3 meetings.

Vince Shubert runs one on the weekends. Write to vinceschubert@gmail.com for the link & schedule.

Luchana & Lubo run one on Thursdays. Write to Luchana at luchanauzunova@gmail.com

Ilona holds a monthly meeting. Write admin@ilonaciunaite.com for that link & schedule


So, we can go through our LU Guiding process here in the forum & give you some pointers & confirm your seeing. If you'd like to do that, here is my usual Introduction:



Hi,

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.
Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[jefe2060]

Thank you Stacy. Call me Jeff! I'm happy to post daily. What I already wrote (the first time) was lost in a "glitch", so hopefully I won't be making that mistake again! I'm in Central European Time, so, Amsterdam. We just "fell back" so we're on Daylight Savings Time and got an extra hour of sleep (it's Sunday). Cheers.

How will life change?

A nice koan.

Life is already an expression of, and inseparable from the constant change that is. This will continue until it doesn't.

How will you change?

Another nice koan.
There is no "You" here to answer the question, which itself applies to no one.

What will be different?

Three in a row!

What is permanent will not change. Whatever arises and passes away will continue to be always different by definition, although there are many patterns that are frequently repeated, until they also change / pass away / are transformed into something else.

What is missing?

At the moment, there is suffering. What is "missing" is a condition where this does not define anything to the extent that this is known and is significant.

In other words, this suffering is the only (apparent - ie, "significantly illusory") facet of "my" (illusory) self that appears.

Of course, the next question is, "For whom is this missing?" And of course, the answer is, "for no one", because "I" cannot find any "one" here that can answer the question.

I suppose all this means that "I" am already in possession of the distinction that being awake is. Writing seems to make it clearer. Prior to this, I was pretty confused about what to do and how to go about it. This seems like a pretty good way. I had no idea that there could be questions to interact with that would bring this about. Thank you for asking them! Any suggestions? Is there a good list of similar questions? I imagine that working with them regularly would be very helpful.

[Anastacia42]

Well we have what we call final questions which of course are only a beginning. Let me give you those and see if there's anything that I can help clarify within that.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Please review the Quote function given in my first post. Use that to quote one question at a time & reply beneath.

Loving,

[jefe2060]

Wow! Super! Thank you Stacy! I've been checking my email all day hoping to hear from you, I assumed your posting in the thread would automatically generate another message there, and didn't think to open up the forum directly; I only just did it now because I wanted to throw a procedural question up here: are these posts public in the community or just between you and I? Also, given my misunderstanding, is there a way to set notifications of some sort so I know when there's something new here?

Given the late hour for me here (also not feeling well today) I won't likely be working my way all the way through the new questions right now, doubt you expect me to, but I'm VERY happy to have them! Really thrilled, overjoyed. And just fine, too 🤣!

I'm on it.

I like your "Loving" salutation, but I don't want to be a copycat, and I'm truly brimming over with love here so

Love,

J

[jefe2060]

Hi again, didn't expect to do this much work tonight but it was fruitful.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

I know intellectually that the answer is no, but at the moment I'm (in the words of Jim Newman) "apparently" feeling pretty Jeff-ish…I mean, I'm pretty identified with the way I feel, the familiarity of how I have shown up…I'm dressed the same way, I feel physically similar…I'm somewhere familiar…by association "I" seem solid and real enough as a separate…something. Ok, let me look closer…

Yes. H•ll yes. The answer is yes. I'm right here, g•dd•mn it, in THIS way, in THIS shape and form. I know it!!!

And it was definitely gone for a while about 6 weeks ago…and then…it…reconstituted…and…well…here Is am, "same as it ever was."

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Well (I'm angry now), as I said a moment ago, I don't see any d*mn illusion right now. Although I know it wasn't here when I was born…even if I can't remember what that was like, I do remember a more empty…spacious…that's crazy. I mean, I knew there was SOMETHING happening when I was a wee lad, and sometimes it was awful and sometimes fun and happy but there was much less of…this…and much more wonder and openness and awe…and experiences were big and new and…I know that beginning. That is also here now. But it's…a bit (to - alternately - a lot) more…crowded? Complex? Noisy?

I imagine this communicates?

So it "started" as I grew up, by 5 it was a f*ckng done deal, because I decided that nobody was ever going to "get in" any more. And that was that, more or less. I've been stuck with "myself" ever since, except sometimes. And now I know the real deal but that knowing is what seems to be more illusory than the "real" illusion…

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It's frustrating right now. Yesterday when I first answered your questions it was like 95% no Jeff…but now? Not so much.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I don't understand the question, from this perspective.

Ah. Well, I just noticed that I didn't really answer question 2. I answered an interpretation of it that I don't even remember. I'll try to answer it correctly here:

2. (V2)
"...the illusion of separate self"

is the notion that "I", Jeff, is somehow separate from all of everything else (including no-thing) as a matter of the relative, and frequently (in the past) intense (and seductively convincing) set of sensations, ideas, and activities that cast a "shadow" of responses, that by inference, "I" use to define, reproduce, and "solidify" the sense of separation…it's like, I am both a sonar generating device, the waves of sound (and all other forms of energy this organized set of stuff produces) that bounce off of "the environment" (which obviously isn't me!), the screen on which those waves are represented and interpreted, the "operator" of the device, and the conclusions s/he draws from the readout on the screen…

All of that is real enough to convince me that I am a real me…that I am solid and unchanging, even though I'm looking quite different from year to year…

"...when it starts"

... Hmm. As I said, it started forming when I was a child, and likely when I was inside my mother and able to take in information…much of which could have occurred quite early, though precise speculation isn't necessary here…as in, maybe "self" really isn't an illusion, but it's an intrinsic part of human (and other?) sentient life, and that there's no way really to have one without the other…mostly.

"...how it works from [my] experience"

...is that the illusion that "I" [and "we"] have usually taken as real, solid, separate, is reinforced, mirrored, and agreed on by the majority of influences constructed by billions of other somnambulists, their [our] ways and means, conventions, habits, practices, rituals…

It's hard not to buy into it.

Now I need to take another look at Q3…

3.(V2)
How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Well, now that I've described how it works, I feel quite a bit freer. It's loosened up. This is quite different from the way It answered before. And for yesterday and today, anyway (o struggled a lot before that for a while), generally speaking there been quite a bit more freedom here.

Q4 again…

4. (V2)

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Writing in depth about all this seems to be very effective for me in seeing the truth. I think that externalizing the narratives provides space and clarity.

Gratitude

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

Seeing there is no self is like learning there's no Santa Claus. It's a guy Iin a red suit. He can put the suit back on, but you are not fooled!

There's no "I" or "self" to "reconstitute." It never existed! "Reconstitute' is impossible.

You can stop answering these.

We will start from the beginning.

What comes up when reading that there is no self, never has been and never will be? That it is all made up story?


This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.



Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Check your spam folder for the email .

Also check the wrench icon and make sure that it says unsubscribe topic. That means you're subscribed.

[jefe2060]

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Clear! Thanks!

J

[Anastacia42]

Okay, now demonstrate that understanding with this:

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[jefe2060]

Ok....but first I'm gonna work on this...no?

What comes up when reading that there is no self, never has been and never will be? That it is all made up story?

Well...something like, "Then what the f*ck is THIS?!?!"

I mean, it's rather stupid, eh? Mistaking ALL OF THIS as the illusion of "my" non-existent "self"!?!? Really. But that's the habituation to it...the incredible, persistent, contraction of energy, thought, sensation, that is "apparently" in the way...

Ok, now down to business.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Working on this post, becoming aware of:

Seeing the laptop, simply = shapes / colors
Smelling the room, simply = smelling
Feeling the touch of the chair's pillow on my back, simply = sensation
Tasting the remnants of my snack, simply = taste
Hearing the dishwasher running, simply = hearing
Thought about this exercise, simply = thought


-----

now am gonna check the "green list"from yesterday. don't remember it at all.

[jefe2060]

Sorry, screwed up.

Seeing the laptop, simply = COLOR / IMAGE
Smelling the room, simply = smelling
Feeling the touch of the chair's pillow on my back, simply = sensation
Tasting the remnants of my snack, simply = taste
Hearing the dishwasher running, simply = hearing
Thought about this exercise, simply = thought

[Anastacia42]

Okay. Those are good. I believe it says to do a few sets. Please do that.

[jefe2060]

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

This is the "Green LIst" correct? I don't see color very clearly sometimes in the green / red / blue ranges. This looks green to me in the post you referred to. I can see your blue questions as blue, btw, no problem.

Question...you list "color / image" in seeing. In my first attempt at the exercise I wrote "shapes / color". Is "shapes" conceptual? Certainly compared to the classic Buddhist category of : "Just seeing" it is, I suppose.

Cheers

J

[jefe2060]

Okay. Those are good. I believe it says to do a few sets. Please do that.

I'm wiped. Gotta go to bed. More coming tomorrow. It's very tough posting on my phone so I will make several sets throughout the day and post when I get back to my laptop. Hope ok.