Hello

[Joutai]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That self is only a thought that references an idea of a person and there is only what is unfolding happening which can include the overlay of a self, but the self is simply an idea over what's happening.

What are you looking for at LU?
I would like others point out how/when I become identified with the content of my mind. For me, I've recently noticed one of the biggest pointers for me to be back in mind identification is when I'm asked "what am I feeling" and I can only think and not feel into my sense at that moment. I'd like someone to help point out how and when that happens. Guidance on how to be diligent would be wonderful.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
There's only so much I can do on my own. I've noticed it's easier for me when I notice someone else going into their heads but catching it for myself is far more difficult. I figure having someone else see me get caught by mind would help me tremendously and save me a load of struggle.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I do meditate on occasion. It's mostly just sitting and letting my experience be. Sometimes I'll sit with a question like "what is my experience that isn't a thought." I've been trying to be in touch with my senses as much as possible on and off the cushion lately.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

[JonathanR]

Hi Joutai

Welcome to LU. My name's Jon and I may be willing to point for you.

. I've been trying to be in touch with my senses as much as possible on and off the cushion lately.

That sounds good. Is there reasoning behind this?

. I've noticed it's easier for me when I notice someone else going into their heads but catching it
for myself is far more difficult.

What if it isn't possible to always prevent unwanted thoughts from appearing?

I would like others point out how/when I become identified with the content of my mind.

I may be able to assist with some questions but it will be you who will notice how this happens for yourself. To truly see it is to be free from the illusion of self.

Looking forward to speaking with you.

Warm regards

Jon

[Joutai]

"That sounds good. Is there reasoning behind this?"
It was pointed out to me from someone else to try to touch in with the senses and so far it makes it extremely for me to interact with people when I'm in my senses since it makes it less likely for me to overthink things.

"What if it isn't possible to always prevent unwanted thoughts from appearing?"
That would be great cause then I wouldn't need to do anything about it besides notice when I'm taking to be real instead of just a thought.

"I may be able to assist with some questions."
It makes sense that the thought of myself is just a thought, but there's still a sense of myself as a separate, individual entity. What's up with that? Are there certain thoughts I am not consciously aware of so I'm not able to see it as just a thought?

And thank you, Jon. My name is Johnny by the way.

[JonathanR]

Hi Johnny

Nice to meet you

. It was pointed out to me from someone else to try to touch in with the senses and so far it makes it extremely for me to interact with people when I'm in my senses since it makes it less likely for me to overthink things.

We do sometimes point to the five 'physical' senses during guiding.
Yes that's interesting. Can attention be on both thoughts and sensations at the same time, in your experience? (You can check this out...it might be interesting).

. "What if it isn't possible to always prevent unwanted thoughts from appearing?"
That would be great cause then I wouldn't need to do anything about it besides notice when I'm taking to be real instead of just a thought.

Yes true. Well, theres a good experiment to try...

Can thoughts be prevented from appearing? Try preventing thoughts from appearing.

Also, is it possible to create a thought. Try it. Is it possible to think up a thought?

. but there's still a sense of myself as a separate, individual entity. What's up with that? Are there certain thoughts I am not consciously aware of so I'm not able to see it as just a thought?

It's possible that some thoughts that aren't really true are habitually believed to be true.

We will tackle this together Johnny.

Have fun :-)

Jon

[Joutai]

Excuse my formatting. I'm on my phone before an appointment. And withing the past week, yes I can be with the senses as thoughts are here.

As for thoughts, they seem to come out of nowhere. I can't seem to make more. Yet, when I believe a thought, it's like thoughts begin to self perpetuate themselves. I almost wanna say when the thought believes itself cause it doesn't feel like I'm making the choice to believe it if that makes sense. Like I'm watching a thought self validate itself and don't have distance from the thought and I believe the thought is truer than anything else that's happening.

Whenever I've tried to negate thoughts, more come rushing in later. As for trying to make thoughts, I've never been able to do so even as a kid and thought something was wrong with my brain cause I couldn't do the mental gymnastics my teachers were asking me to do. Thoughts seem like a natural flow, almost like breathing. Some thoughts have the ability to sucker me in to believe in thought as more real than anything else. Doesn't happen much lately but does on occasion.

I've been gauging how in the body I am to see if I'm thinking without knowing so. If I don't have a sense of energy or aliveness, I kind of check in and see "am I stuck thinking without knowing so" and it tends to bring me back to just feeling. And now it's like there's feeling with thoughts while not being stuck to thoughts but it's only been about a week since it's been like this.

Thank you, Jon.

[JonathanR]

Hi Johnny

Sorry for the delay. The last two days were very busy. Normally I will reply daily.

. As for thoughts, they seem to come out of nowhere. I can't seem to make more. Yet, when I believe a thought, it's like thoughts begin to self perpetuate themselves.

It does seem so.
Here it would be worth noticing the types of narratives that appear during these times. In particular any references to an entity, 'me' or "I". Not that a 'real' entity exists, but it is good to see how the illusion appears / reappears

l almost wanna say when the thought believes itself cause it doesn't feel like I'm making the choice to believe it if that makes sense.

Yes it does, though look at this; can a thought think a thought?

Like I'm watching a thought self validate itself and don't have distance from the thought and I believe the thought is truer than anything else that's happening

We need to be thorough in investigating this but I'm not suggesting spending hours hawkishly watching thoughts, but simply allowing a natural inquisitiveness to happen.

What, exactly, is doing the watching ?

Is it truly 'separate' from whatever is noticed?

. Whenever I've tried to negate thoughts, more come rushing in later. As for trying to make thoughts, I've never been able to do so even as a kid and thought something was wrong with my brain cause I couldn't do the mental gymnastics my teachers were asking me to do.

Oh yeah. That brings back memories.

Interesting that thoughts are not preventable and can't be created. Does this suggest that a 'self' is not 'doing' thoughts, not creating nor capable of stopping them (contrary to popular beliefs)?

. I've been gauging how in the body I am to see if I'm thinking without knowing so. If I don't have a sense of energy or aliveness, I kind of check in and see "am I stuck thinking without knowing so" and it tends to bring me back to just feeling. And now it's like there's feeling with thoughts while not being stuck to thoughts but it's only been about a week since it's been like this.

That's great. You might find that constant vigilance is not as necessary as once supposed.

Does a 'self do' inquiry? Might inquiry have a life of its own, (so to speak)?

In the moment that it is recognised that beliefs had been happening unconsciously, is it 'you' that 'wakes up'? Is it 'you' that makes the waking up happen?

When the reawakening moment happens does it seem to just naturally happen each time?

Or, is there an entity somewhere, busy behind the scenes who is pressing buttons or pulling levers to make the reawakening happen?

All best

Jon

[Joutai]

Hi Johnny

Sorry for the delay. The last two days were very busy. Normally I will reply daily.

It's all good. I'm glad to hear from you when I hear from you.

Yes it does, though look at this; can a thought think a thought?

I'm quite stuck on this one. When I give my attention to thought, it looks like thoughts just keep rolling on by but I can't tell where the thoughts come from or how they perpetuate besides them just arising. A thought does seem like it can be attached to a thought and then it almost starts to feel real.

What, exactly, is doing the watching ?

Is it truly 'separate' from whatever is noticed?

I'd say awareness is watching, but I can't seem to find awareness even when I'm aware that I'm aware so I'm honestly not sure what is doing the watching.

For me, it feels like my awareness is the subject and everything else is different from awareness, but not disconnected. Like the awareness is separate but not individual. It's interdependent with everything but I wouldn't say it is everything.

Interesting that thoughts are not preventable and can't be created. Does this suggest that a 'self' is not 'doing' thoughts, not creating nor capable of stopping them (contrary to popular beliefs)?

Thoughts don't seem to have a rhyme or reason to be here or not. Just seems like they're here or not. Even when I believe the content of thought, it doesn't feel like I'm choosing that either. Yet it also seems like just knowing so makes a difference even when it feels like I don't have control of when I'm swept away by thoughts or not.

Does a 'self do' inquiry? Might inquiry have a life of its own, (so to speak)?

In the moment that it is recognised that beliefs had been happening unconsciously, is it 'you' that 'wakes up'? Is it 'you' that makes the waking up happen?

When the reawakening moment happens does it seem to just naturally happen each time?

Or, is there an entity somewhere, busy behind the scenes who is pressing buttons or pulling levers to make the reawakening happen?

Inquiry definitely has a life of its own. Whenever I try to force it to happen, there's just struggle and things seem to be less clear. Whenever things get clearer, they've always happened by complete accident when I kinda just gave up. I meditate, while it's relaxing, things have always gotten clearer when I'm doing my normal life things and it just hits me without any intention of things being clearer.

It doesn't seem like the thought made sense of self gets clearer or wakes up. It just feels like things are clear just because it's clear and I can't seem to notice a reason why other than "it's clear just because it's clear, with or without thoughts."

It all seems random, but natural. I can't find an agent pulling the strings. Even when there's physical action trying to get clearer on this, there doesn't seem to be an acting, individual force doing so. Just that there's a natural urge. Like when you're thirsty and wanna drink water you just naturally go and get some water. Not thinking "I feel thirsty so that means I should go and drink water." Just a natural movement of going and drinking water.

All the best!

[JonathanR]

Hi Johnny


Thanks for all your answers which I have read carefully.

As a guide I tend to give pointers where they might be helpful and not too many at once.

Let's look at this:

For me, it feels like my awareness is the subject and everything else is different from awareness, but not disconnected. Like the awareness is separate but not individual. It's interdependent with everything but I wouldn't say it is everything

A question could be, then, where is the line where awareness ends and everything else begins?

But here is a really fun exercise to try.

Find a coloured object such as a white cup and place it in front of you a couple of feet away.

Without making any special effort just notice the whiteness (or whatever colour it happens to be).

Is there an experience of colour?

Is the whiteness separate from the experience of it?

Is there a line somewhere that separates the whiteness from awareness of it?

Jon

[Joutai]

A question could be, then, where is the line where awareness ends and everything else begins?

But here is a really fun exercise to try.

Find a coloured object such as a white cup and place it in front of you a couple of feet away.

Without making any special effort just notice the whiteness (or whatever colour it happens to be).

Is there an experience of colour?

Is the whiteness separate from the experience of it?

Is there a line somewhere that separates the whiteness from awareness of it?

Jon

Thanks for the exercise. The next few days will be a little busy for me but I'll try to find the time and report back to you.

Thanks, Jon!

[Joutai]

So I've had two attempts at this inquiry. And so far there's still a sense of "out thereness" with some trippyness here and there. The more relaxed I am, sometimes it feels like my eyeballs are trying to look at itself even though they're not actually doing anything. Like awareness trying to look at itself to figure out where it begins and ends. And when I'm relaxed, a few seconds later, everything just looks kinda blurry where I can't tell what I'm looking at for a few seconds. The object and the things around the object almost don't look like distinct objects at times, like the object and all the other objects are all one thing which doesn't make any sense, but it looks like that.

Some things in sight outside of this specific inquiry:
Sometimes when I look at things and feel incredibly relaxed, things look like they lose depth. Like my laptop, I can't tell where the top, bottom, and the curve is. It almost looks flat when it logically should look like an "L" shape and it will after a second or two.

Also, when I take a walk and I'm relaxed into sight, I can't visually confirm where the ground is, but I can still feel the ground and the sensations on my feet as I walk. It looks like there's no perception of ground, yet the confirmation there is a ground isn't in my sight but from my feet and it's sensations. And what I see does look kinda flat. Sometimes it doesn't even feel like I'm walking but everything is kinda moving eventhough logically I'm what's supposed to be walking around.

All the above tends to happen just for a few seconds but they happen intermittently randomly.

Thanks for the specific inquiry. It's been interesting to look more deeply into awareness even though I don't think I'm perceiving what you're asking me to look into.

[Joutai]

Third day of looking into this.

I noticed I was associating "awareness" with "sight" in the previous post. Which shortly after making that post, made no sense. I was aware of sight, my breathing, sensations, and thoughts all at once shortly after I wrote that.

I'm getting a little confused on what awareness is. I can't find where it begins or where it ends. It just seems like awareness is aware. Yet, when I bring up the white object, I still perceive it as an object inside of awareness.

Sorry if this is too many posts. I feel like a kid that's always wanted new toys to be happy that's just found new ways to play with the toys he already has and I've just found all this spiritual inquiries incredibly fun the past few months. There is a bit of the thought that this would be easier if I took it more seriously than playfully but I can't help but find all of this stuff "fun" instead of like a school assignment I'm supposed to figure out.

[Joutai]

A question could be, then, where is the line where awareness ends and everything else begins?

At this point, I can't seem to find where awareness ends and everything else begins. There only seems to be just awareness.

[JonathanR]

Hi Johnny

Firstly, I must really apologise for missing your recent posts. I had been looking out for you but perhaps because I was travelling, away from home where internet accessed patchy I missed you. I now see you've made four replies! So sorry.

Anyway. I'm now going to read what you have written and will properly reply very shortly.

All best

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi again

There's interesting progress across your posts in the last few days.

It's great that you are interested and having fun with these things. That's actually the best approach, not burdened with ideas of having to be spiritual or serious but just naturally inquisitive!

. I'm getting a little confused on what awareness is. I can't find where it begins or where it ends. It just seems like awareness is aware.

Yes that's a good way to put it.

. Yet, when I bring up the white object, I still perceive it as an object inside of awareness.

Firstly, you must not do this exercise just mentally or from memory of having tried it earlier. It's essential, to be sure of what's really experienced, (in contrast to what is remembered or imagined), to do the exercise right here and now. I cannot stress this simple rule strongly enough.

When you say 'I still perceive' do you mean that you perceive it with eyes? , or do you mean that 'I think of it as...'?.

If you were just seeing the whiteness I wonder if the idea of 'object inside of awareness' would be part of that unless there were an additional assumption (thought) ABOUT 'object inside of awareness'?

Jon

[Joutai]

Firstly, you must not do this exercise just mentally or from memory of having tried it earlier. It's essential, to be sure of what's really experienced, (in contrast to what is remembered or imagined), to do the exercise right here and now. I cannot stress this simple rule strongly enough.

When you say 'I still perceive' do you mean that you perceive it with eyes? , or do yo
If you were just seeing the whiteness I wonder if the idea of 'object inside of awareness' would be part of that unless there were an additional assumption (thought) ABOUT 'object inside of awareness'?

Jon

Hello, Jon. It's nice to hear from you. When I look at an object, I'm looking at awareness and it feels like sight is something I'm aware of is the simplest way I know how to put it. Like I'm aware that there's sight and my vision is all contained in awareness and I can't see anything other than what's being seen.