Ollo

[Sunshine1]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? That all there is... is life expressing and any experience of a separate individuated self operating in this expression is illusory.

What are you looking for at LU? More clarity, less opacity in clear seeing of no-self as an abiding state. The understanding feels conceptual rather than immersive. The active search of an "I" yields emptiness and yet when the inquiry ends, a sense of an "I" pops back into consciousness. Upon investigation, it is seen as fabricated and without real essence and yet it appears in experience. More concrete examples include a sense of separateness from other beings, and a sense of agency.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? Help in seeing through the cloudy veil of illusion, to see that no one is home. Even though the home is found to be empty upon inquiry, it still feels like there is a resident ghost grasping at ownership of experience. Seeking guidance to seek through the veil of apparent agency and decision-making.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? Kriya yoga practices since 2017, regular meditation practice, spiritual literature galore, Jeffrey Martin's 45-day challenge, non-duality videos, all of which are recognized as a doer doing something. More relevant is a self-inquiry practice of looking for this doer for the past year or so. Experiences that have been noticed include a sense of deliciousness to life, sheer awe at the magnificent paradox, tears and laughter concurrent, and a sense that everything is ok.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[warissem]

Good morning

I am glad to accompany you during the investigation of seeing through the illusion of a separate self.
There are some agreements to engage with :

Check here in the forum every day or at least once per 2 days. This is important to take the flow of looking. If you are not OK with this, I will invite another guide for you.

Put aside all what you know about advaita, spirituality, oneness or whatever around this topic.

Be 100% honest when you give answers : that is you are certain that the answer is true and seen in direct experience (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching or sensations).

Read the disclaimer text and learn how to use the quote function (instructions are given on this forum).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Let me know when we can begin.

best wishes
Warissem

[Sunshine1]

Hello Warissem,

Thank you for being there. We can begin.

[warissem]

Hi

I want you to be familiar with discriminating what is as direct experience from thought stories. During our dialog, I ask questions which are pointers : you LOOK AT the question then SEE the answer.

Example : what is the color of the sky now?
You can give an answer from the memory, the last time you looked at the sky
OR from direct experience : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching or sensations.
Open the window and LOOK AT the sky then SEE the answer.

If this is clear we can go ahead.

Warm wishes

[Sunshine1]

Yes it is clear, we can proceed.

[warissem]

Good evening

What arises when you read this :

There is no you, no separate self in any shape or form, it never was, it never will be.

Waiting for your insights

[Sunshine1]

There is no you, no separate self in any shape or form, it never was, it never will be.

What arises:

• sense of ease and comfort, relaxation, affirmation

• a smile around the awareness of light sadness of loss

• thoughts of a time when it felt like there was a me. The memories are just thoughts, they arise and they pass. No grasping.

• soft overlay of a sensation of ownership... these are "my" thoughts. This is another thought, seen through as such.

• mild curiosity around agency... sense of awe around this paradox of "I can make a decision right now to step away from the keyboard and go eat some soup" and yet there is no "I" to be found upon direct looking

[warissem]

Good evening

sense of ease and comfort, relaxation, affirmation

Great

a smile around the awareness of light sadness of loss thoughts of a time when it felt like there was a me.

There is nothing to lose : there is no separate self at the first place.

The memories are just thoughts, they arise and they pass. No grasping.

Yes, is there you thinking? Is there a thinker ?

soft overlay of a sensation of ownership... these are "my" thoughts. This is another thought, seen through as such.

Yes, great to have seen this.

mild curiosity around agency... sense of awe around this paradox of "I can make a decision right now to step away from the keyboard and go eat some soup" and yet there is no "I" to be found upon direct looking

How is decision made ?
Is there a you, an entity behind the thought "I"?
Is the thought "I can make a decision ..... some soup" made by you or any entity or does it arise without a cause from nowhere? Look.

Best for you

[Sunshine1]

is there you thinking? Is there a thinker?

1. Thinking happens
2. The overlay of ownership arises which leads to an assumption of an "I"
3. This is questioned and seen through
4. Ultimately a thinker is not found
The default mode is operating under the old false belief, only after direct looking, it falls away. The default mode of being is not quite yet rid of this belief entirely. It's opaque, yes it can be seen through but it must be examined all the time. The old assumptions must constantly be investigated.

How is decision made?

Very similar pattern to above where a decision happens and a sensation of ownership arises and claims the decision but there is more here. The tendency to assume an "I" is much stronger because unlike random thoughts that come and go, decisions also come with the additional baggage of assumed agency.

Is there a you, an entity behind the thought "I"?

No, not upon direct looking

Is the thought "I can make a decision ..... some soup" made by you or any entity or does it arise without a cause from nowhere?

The thought arises from nowhere, it simply pops into the field of awareness. However, this thought is about a future in time. The ownership overlay discussed above is accompanied by a belief that "I have control over the future, I can make a choice here, I can take one outcome over another" The entire dynamic is thoughts and a self-narrative process of grasping. It's seen through afterwards, upon investigation - there was never an "I" in there... and yet something remains that assumes it can make choices... but can't be found.

[warissem]

Good morning

Thinking happens
The overlay of ownership arises which leads to an assumption of an "I"
This is questioned and seen through
Ultimately a thinker is not found

Great, how do you feel to see that?

The default mode is operating under the old false belief, only after direct looking, it falls away. The default mode of being is not quite yet rid of this belief entirely. It's opaque, yes it can be seen through but it must be examined all the time. The old assumptions must constantly be investigated.

Yes, the program continues to operate even after having seen through the illusion of a separate self. The falling of old beliefs will happen in due time. We don’t know when it happens and the sole thing which can be done is to shine light on them. No effort is needed.

Very similar pattern to above where a decision happens and a sensation of ownership arises and claims the decision but there is more here. The tendency to assume an "I" is much stronger because unlike random thoughts that come and go, decisions also come with the additional baggage of assumed agency.

Good observation.

No, not upon direct looking

Great

The thought arises from nowhere, it simply pops into the field of awareness. However, this thought is about a future in time. The ownership overlay discussed above is accompanied by a belief that "I have control over the future, I can make a choice here, I can take one outcome over another" The entire dynamic is thoughts and a self-narrative process of grasping. It's seen through afterwards, upon investigation - there was never an "I" in there... and yet something remains that assumes it can make choices... but can't be found.

About this ““something” that remains and assumes it can make choices” : is it only a thought? A sensation ? a sight? a sound?

If “I” “me” are seen as concepts, thoughts, is there a possibility that there is no you, no inherent self in real life?

Best wishes

[Sunshine1]

how do you feel to see that?

In acceptance and restfulness

About this ““something” that remains and assumes it can make choices” : is it only a thought? A sensation ? a sight? a sound?

Yes the assumption that there is a choice here, that there is agency here, that is another thought. It can be let go as just a thought. But the assumption is accepted because it looks like it passes the test. In other words, let's look... ok there is no "I" here, but even in the absence of an "I" there is a possibility of choice. Who chooses? No one there. Can there be a sense of agency without a subject?

If “I” “me” are seen as concepts, thoughts, is there a possibility that there is no you, no inherent self in real life?

Yes there is this possibility. In fact there is openness for any potential without a need to know.

[warissem]

Good morning

Yes the assumption that there is a choice here, that there is agency here, that is another thought. It can be let go as just a thought.

Yes

But the assumption is accepted because it looks like it passes the test. In other words, let's look... ok there is no "I" here, but even in the absence of an "I" there is a possibility of choice. Who chooses? No one there. Can there be a sense of agency without a subject?

It is time to see through thoughts to be clearer about choices and control. Look at each question and give separate answers.
Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Best for you

[Sunshine1]

Where are they coming from and going to?

They appear out of nowhere and dissipate into nothing

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No

Can you predict your next thought?

No

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No

look carefully and just notice if there is an organized sequence?

Applying this question to a simple situation where there appears to be a choice - In walking, shall the left path or the right path be taken?
1. There is walking happening
2. The eyes see a fork in the path
3. Resting in pure movement, the feet continue to walk
4. The eyes see the left path
5. A thought appears: On the left path, taking ownership and assigning an "I"
6. Another thought appears: I have agency over this
7. Another thought appears: I am choosing the left path
8. Another series of thoughts appear: I am on the left path because I chose the left path, therefore I must have agency
9. This is added to the belief system

Steps 4, 5, 6, 7 happen in milliseconds and are seen as a single event.

[warissem]

Good morning

You have done good observations.

8. Another series of thoughts appear: I am on the left path because I chose the left path, therefore I must have agency

This sentence is a thought : do you agree?
"I" is a thought also : is there someone behind "I" saying this? Is there an entity hidden behind "I"? Look.
Is there a thinker of thoughts?
Is there a you noticing thoughts?

Waiting for your insights

[Sunshine1]

This sentence is a thought : do you agree?

Yes

is there someone behind "I" saying this? Is there an entity hidden behind "I"?

No one is found behind the "I", the notion that there is an "I" is a thought or a belief

Is there a thinker of thoughts?

No thinker is ultimately found, the thoughts just appear

Is there a you noticing thoughts?

There is no "me" but there is awareness of thoughts
There is also an awareness of a particular sensation - a painless pressure in the forehead region. It shows up during moments of sinking in, deep looking, meditation. It is just noticed but no particular weight is given to it. It just is.