Interested in working with a guide

[tatty25]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that experiences and phenomenon apparently occur without a central doer or experiencer. The sense of self is a kind of energetic process which does not have solidity or permanent/inherent existence.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am interested in deepening of realization. I am currently working with the Fetter model on my own and would love to work with a guide that would allow me to see through blindspots or hidden beliefs and assumptions.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I am interested in deepening of realization. I am currently working with the Fetter model on my own and would love to work with a guide that would allow me to see through blindspots or hidden beliefs and assumptions.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Self inquiry into the sense of self (who am I), natural meditation/silence, and working with the Fetter model

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Bluejay]

Hi,

I'm Henri. What would you like me to call you?

Welcome to the forum. I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

If yes, then we can start...

If you haven't already, please read the disclaimer here: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

And then have a look at what Liberation Unleashed is not in the FAQ: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some guidelines (you may already be familiar with most of this, but just in case):

1. Post at least once every 24 to 48 hours. I'm not strict about this, but I would prefer it if you posted regularly. If you can't, please let me know.

2. Pause any other teachings, rituals, books, and practices you are currently involved in. It is best to put all your effort into this inquiry for as long as it lasts. A meditation practice is fine, but anything else can be a distraction.

3. Technology can be problematic. I recommend you type your answers in a text editor like MS Word or Google Docs, and then copy and paste them into this thread. This way you avoid losing your answer if there's a technical glitch.

4. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to answer each question individually. Here are instructions on how to use the quote function if it is not already clear: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And to start, I'd like to know your expectations. You don't have to use direct experience for this. Just share what comes to mind:

1. How will life change when you realize there is no "I"?
2. How will you change?
3. What will be different?
4. What is missing right now that you will have when there is a shift?

Enjoy! :)

[tatty25]

Hi Henri,

Thank you so much for offering to be my guide. You can call me Tanya

1. How will life change when you realize there is no "I"?

Life will not be any different and it will continue to unfold in a similar manner as it does now.

2. How will you change?

I presume that there will be less suffering in this body/mind. I don’t expect a life without challenges or expected ups and downs that are inherent to humanness, but the unnecessary suffering that comes from completely identifying with thoughts and emotions will be lessened.

3. What will be different?

Life will not change but how life is perceived will change.

4. What is missing right now that you will have when there is a shift?

Nothing is missing right now but when there is a shift the thought or belief that there is something else to look for drops away and what is already here is revealed.

[Bluejay]

Hi Tanya,

Thank you for the answers.

Are you familiar with direct experience?

For example, if I ask you what the weather is, how would you check to be 100% sure?

[tatty25]

Are you familiar with direct experience?

Yes I am familiar with direct experience.

For example, if I ask you what the weather is, how would you check to be 100% sure?

I would use direct sensory input such as from seeing, hearing, smelling and touch etc to check the weather.

Thank you!

[Bluejay]

OK, excellent!

Let's run through some basics. You may be familiar with these but repetition is good :)

So do the below as many times as you'd like.

Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply = image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above.

[tatty25]

Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

Brushing teeth

Seeing toothbrush, simply = image/color
Smelling the toothpaste, simply = smell
Tasting the toothpaste, simply = taste
Feeling tingling from the toothpaste, simply = sensation
Hearing the sound of running water, simply = sound
Thought about turning the faucet off, simply = thought

Attending a virtual/zoom meeting
Seeing meeting participants on the computer screen, simply = image/color
Sitting upright on a chair, simply = sensation
Hearing conversation from the meeting , simply = sound
Thought about what to say next, simply = thought

Thank you!

[Bluejay]

OK, that's very clear. :)

Next, have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise. Otherwise use the image below.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what do they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts about something, because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought about ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk about can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

- Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
- Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Enjoy and let me know what you find out :)

[tatty25]

What about the content of thoughts, what do they describe?

The contents of thought describe labels and an idea of an “apple” but don’t actually describe the direct experience of what’s actually there.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought about ‘apple’?

Theirs is only color/image and thought arising about apple

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No apple is just a label assigned to the set of certain experiences but apple itself can not be found in direct experience

However, is an apple actually known?

An apple cannot be known because it is not directly experienced

[Bluejay]

Thank you for the answers. Very clear once again.

Can you tell me about how you've been working with the fetter model so far? Have you stuck to fetters 1-3 or have you explored others?

You mentioned in your intro about blind spots, hidden beliefs and assumptions; do you have any ideas on what those might be or do we continue and see what pops up?

[tatty25]

Can you tell me about how you've been working with the fetter model so far? Have you stuck to fetters 1-3 or have you explored others?

I have been working with the fetter model by reading about them/watching videos and subsequently applying exercises and questioning assumptions throughout the day, as experiences arise. I have mostly explored fetters 1-3 but recently started working on 4 & 5 (desire/ill-will). For instance, when reactivity arises, if I look to see whether there is a self that needs to react, I don’t find one in direct experience. However, at times the momentum feels strong and the gap that exists before reacting is not always noticed.

You mentioned in your intro about blind spots, hidden beliefs and assumptions; do you have any ideas on what those might be or do we continue and see what pops up?

I experience frequent thoughts arising about what needs to be different in the present moment. The assumption is that reality can be different or better than what it currently is. Intellectually I understand that reality cannot be any different than what is, but the desire for an alternate reality still arises.

Thank you!

[Bluejay]

I have been working with the fetter model by reading about them/watching videos and subsequently applying exercises and questioning assumptions throughout the day, as experiences arise. I have mostly explored fetters 1-3 but recently started working on 4 & 5 (desire/ill-will). For instance, when reactivity arises, if I look to see whether there is a self that needs to react, I don’t find one in direct experience. However, at times the momentum feels strong and the gap that exists before reacting is not always noticed.

In fetter 4-5, you're not looking for a self that needs to react, but for a mechanism that makes the reaction happen. You sit with the primary sensations and you watch if there is a connection to a reaction.

All that said, it's probably best to 100% focus on fetter 1 for our inquiry here.

I experience frequent thoughts arising about what needs to be different in the present moment. The assumption is that reality can be different or better than what it currently is. Intellectually I understand that reality cannot be any different than what is, but the desire for an alternate reality still arises.

Understood.

The first fetter is looking at if there is a controller, thinker, feeler, intender, doer.

Wanting reality to be different can still arise even in the later fetters. In the first fetter it's about seeing that there is a wanting arising, but it's not arising to anyone or by anyone. It's just arising/passing.

This might be a good time to look at thoughts / thinking.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear.

Try your best to completely ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict the next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?

Do you control where attention goes?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It may seem like thoughts are ordered logically, but look carefully. Is there an organized sequence? Or is it just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or 'they take content from previous thoughts' or 'one thought follows another thought'?

Let me know what you find :)

[tatty25]

In fetter 4-5, you're not looking for a self that needs to react, but for a mechanism that makes the reaction happen. You sit with the primary sensations, and you watch if there is a connection to a reaction.

All that said, it's probably best to 100% focus on fetter 1 for our inquiry here.

Ok! Thank you for the clarification.

Thought exercise

Where are they coming from and going to?

Thoughts appear to come out of nowhere and then disappear into nowhere

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No thoughts appear on their own

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No

Can you predict the next thought?

No

Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?

No

Do you control where attention goes?

No. Even the thought that says “let me focus attention here” is another thought.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No, and the thought that says “ I wish I can choose not to have negative thoughts” is also another thought.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No

It may seem like thoughts are ordered logically, but look carefully. Is there an organized sequence? Or is it just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or 'they take content from previous thoughts' or 'one thought follows another thought'?

Most of the time it appears thoughts are just random and do not have organized sequence. But at times, for instance when a memory is recounted, it seems like the thoughts have related content or are taking content from previous thoughts.

[Bluejay]

Okay, excellent. :)

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this sense of self very-very thoroughly. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

[tatty25]

Does the sense of self have a location?

At times the sense of self does not have a specific location and boundary but at other times it feels like it is located in the head behind the eyes.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

It doesn’t have a shape or size or boundary

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

It doesn’t say or communicate anything but it feels like a knowing that something exists

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

It is hard to describe any specific characteristics or attributes.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

It feels like it’s made of thoughts such as “I exist” and “I am here” or “there is existence here” and at times sensation behind the eyes. However, when I look into the sensation closely and try to describe what kind of sensation it is I can’t pinpoint the nature of the sensation but it feels like there is some energy in the head, behind the eyes.