who knows?

[Annette33]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Having read the Gateless Gatecrashers book, there will be questions pointing towards the truth of no self outside of thought; a dialogue to help 'me' see through the illusion.

What are you looking for at LU?
Help to see through what is understood conceptually and at times glimpsed for real. Engagement with someone who has understood from direct experience. I, to use that composite term, am sick of selfing.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
There will be wholehearted, direct and honest dialogue online. Hopefully until the illusion of 'i' is seen through. It won't be 'keeping it nice'. The guide and me will have the same desired outcome - to see 'me' through the gate. There will be commitment to this from us both.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
26 years of Buddhist practice but in a 'lazy' way in recent years. Disillusioned perhaps with the 'lack of progress' that 'i' have made. Sick of self improvement goals, since nothing much seems to have changed.
There have been insights into no self years ago - now these are just memories serving the 'i', on which to rest my laurels. The clinging to self is annoying!

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Alless]

Hello Annette33

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed.

My name is Alan and I’m very happy to help you see through the notion of a separate self.

What you write really resonates.

There will be wholehearted, direct and honest dialogue online. Hopefully until the illusion of 'i' is seen through. It won't be 'keeping it nice'. The guide and me will have the same desired outcome - to see 'me' through the gate. There will be commitment to this from us both.

Have no doubt I am committed to see you through in the most direct way that unfolds. It may seem confronting at times however I see you understand it may be that way if necessary.

So if you would like to look deeply together, here are some suggestions to help make the best use of this opportunity:

Post daily to keep up the momentum. If you cannot post, or need more time, let me know, I’ll do the same.

Leave aside all other “spiritual” related resources - books, teachings, models, theories, philosophy and the like for the duration of our investigation. This a chance to have a completely fresh look. Try to leave aside everything you learned up till now. Here we are going to depend on your Actual Experience, not from what you have read, heard, learned or known so far. Only from what you yourself can observe directly in the moment from looking at what is here right now.

Be 100% honest. And write as much as you can. This is about honest exploration and we are not looking for what appears to be “right” answers. Just report as best you can only what you are experiencing in the moment.

Also now is a good time to ask you to read through some important links and let me know if you are OK with everything before we get started.

1) The LU Disclaimer http://www.liberationunleashed.com/regi ... sclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Also, please watch this short video to learn how to use the Quote function which will help in our conversation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCbZYSvnTpc&t=1s

Sometimes system glitches happen so it’s recommended that you copy and paste into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread.

So if you'd like to get started just let me know if this is all OK with you.

Do you have any burning questions you would like to ask?


Alan
 

[Annette33]

Warm greetings Alan, and thank you for replying and offering to guide me through. That is very appreciated.

Post daily to keep up the momentum. If you cannot post, or need more time, let me know, I’ll do the same.

First things first, i am going to be away for one week's holiday from 17th September so wouldnt necessarily be able post daily/poor signal in the forest? some days. However, there is momentum emerging now so ideally we wouldnt delay until 25 September. What is best?

Also now is a good time to ask you to read through some important links and let me know if you are OK with everything before we get started.

Yes ok with all that.

No burning question but a strong curiosity and excited feeling on reading your post.
Annette

[Alless]

Just spotted your quick response Annette. (I’m assuming that is what you would like to be called 😊)

No burning question but a strong curiosity and excited feeling on reading your post.

I love the way you refer to the strong curiosity you express here. Curiosity is so important in this endeavors. Sometimes there is confusion between seeking and curiosity.

Does any distinction stand out for you between curiosity and seeking?


And to begin there is something I am curious about. I would like you to talk about what you expect from this investigation. Give yourself time to ponder these points then send me what comes.

How do you expect life to change?


What do you hope to gain?


Is there anything you fear losing?


And one more thing for today. Let the following statement really sink in.

There is no separate self, never has been and never will be. That there is, is all just a made up story.

What reactions - from none to subtle to strong - come up when you read that statement?

What's the first thought to pop into your head?


Do you feel any emotion(s) rising at all?


Any other reactions - subtle or strong?


As you may have noticed I will highlight questions for you to respond to in blue text so that they are easy for you to spot.

BTW I am in the eastern time zone in Australia – AEST

What time zone are you in Annette?


Thoroughly looking forward to this investigation with you.


Alan.

[Alless]

And Annette I see I didn't respond to your question. My apologies.

First things first, i am going to be away for one week's holiday from 17th September so wouldnt necessarily be able post daily/poor signal in the forest? some days. However, there is momentum emerging now so ideally we wouldnt delay until 25 September. What is best?

Life goes on taking and taking a break is not a problem. Especially when you have momentum and are keen to get underway. There are things that you can continue with when you are away which we can decide on just before you go.

Thank you for the heads up. We can always work something through when we let each other know what's what.


Alan

[Annette33]

Hello to you in Eastern Australia

Does any distinction stand out for you between curiosity and seeking?

With seeking - there’s a sort of tension in the hara/belly area; a sort of psychological and sometimes physical leaning forward; quite unpleasant. A ‘grasping’ in Buddhist terms. And tension between the eyes too – all that thinking! A sort of closed feeling. And of course in this context seeking is endless if it’s the ‘I’ that’s trying to get beyond the ‘I’!

With curiosity, there’s a relaxed face and especially round the eyes, more open, often a half smile, and more heart centre sensations. A sort of physical and mental ‘Oooo, I wonder…’ an openness. Not rushed.

How do you expect life to change?

Ideally more open hearted engagement with the mind-body-world. Less self centredness. Less getting lost in ‘I’ thinking. A gentle release into a sort of deep knowing that there is no ‘I’/ person behind a steering wheel.

What do you hope to gain?

Remembering much more often to step back, as it were, into the big picture.
More alive interaction with those close to me and the environment. More love of this life before it's gone.

Is there anything you fear losing?

Not that I am conscious of but probably unconscious fear/resistance to change. This needs more reflection. Suspect there's more going on.

What reactions - from none to subtle to strong - come up when you read that statement?

A ‘yes’, true, but a thinking frown too. Like ‘I’ thoughts that that’s too simple. And oh god, what would that mean if it was really understood, about how I’ve lived thus far! Chasing clouds and reflections. What a waste of life. So some investment in keeping the story.

What's the first thought to pop into your head?

I don’t like the word ‘just’ in your sentence. The I prefers ‘it’s all a story’ because the I process believes it likes stories.

Do you feel any emotion(s) rising at all?

a sort of confusion, lack of clarity, some frustration

Any other reactions - subtle or strong?

a frown, and tight downturned mouth, tight belly – aha, must be in seeking mode!

What time zone are you in Annette?

I’m in the UK. GMT. Images of the east coast on Australia are arising as I think of you there, Alan. How amazing to communicate across the world like this about waking up.

Thank you.

[Annette33]

Life goes on taking and taking a break is not a problem. Especially when you have momentum and are keen to get underway. There are things that you can continue with when you are away which we can decide on just before you go.

yes great, good plan. Thank you.

[Alless]

Annette,

And hello to you in the UK. Images are coming up here too - of the UK. Images from experiences there that are beautiful and both visual and felt !!

Yes, the gift of technology that negates distance !!

The sensations you describe in contrasting seeking and curiosity are such important pointers to keep noticing in this exploration.

Notice them when they arise. They are important pointers in that they can help clarify what is going on - whether there is a leaning into seeking or curiosity.

All I would add from experience here is that seeking implies lack while pure curiosity springs from a surrender to not knowing.

Looking at what you are expecting from this investigation there is nothing that stands out calling for particular comment.

However, the thing to realize about any expectation is that they indicate a (sometimes a so very subtle) desire to control. They are like clouds that cast shadows over what is unfolding right now.

Expectations are simply thoughts that, when believed, help hold the illusion in place. Expectations come in many guises.

that’s too simple.

Is that not another expectation in disguise?


The truth is that what is being pointed to here in this exploration is simpler than simple

And oh god, what would that mean if it was really understood, about how I’ve lived thus far! Chasing clouds and reflections. What a waste of life. So some investment in keeping the story.

Is there fear lurking here?

I don’t like the word ‘just’ in your sentence. The I prefers ‘it’s all a story’ because the I process believes it likes stories.

What is the feeling behind what you are saying here? Resistance? Or something stronger like indignation? Something else?



And tell me about this I.
What is it exactly?



Where is it to be found exactly?



And where did you go for the answers you've given above?

a sort of confusion, lack of clarity, some frustration

What is causing this?



And again, where did you go for the answer?

a frown, and tight downturned mouth, tight belly

Keep reporting these sensations as we walk this "pathless path" We will dive into them as we go.

Loving the honesty in what you report in this post Annette. This is what bears fruit.


Alan

[Annette33]

Hello Alan

Is that not another expectation in disguise

Oh so it is! Sneaky little mind. Helpful what you write about expectations. A subtle or not subtle wanting or not wanting certain experience.

What is the feeling behind what you are saying here? Resistance? Or something stronger like indignation? Something else?

A dismissive quality. I want to be right. I use yes and no a lot in speech. Like a knee jerk reaction. Fear based I think but don’t feel that yet. Will look into that more

[And tell me about this I.
What is it exactly?[/quote]

I had a long answer from the head / thinking about ‘i’ being a shorthand way of referring to all the sense input, to make sense of what just happened, and then asked again more whole body aware and there was just inner silence, a sigh, relaxed shoulders and awareness of the birds, cars, white laundry flapping in the breeze…

where is it to be found

The first reaction to that question is there’s a sense of i in the head. If I ask where in the head then it can’t be pinpointed, there’s no spot but a sort of floating moveable something.

And where did you go for the answers you've given above

This relates to curiosity and conceptual thinking. There are answers which seek to be right versus wide eyed slow wondering. The second way of answering is more real or satisfying, more relating to actual experience rather than thinking about experience. Some of the first answers were quick thinking ones. Some a mixture and some relaxed curious answers which don’t fear being wrong.

Bit of a delay in replying. Health /pain flare up and a sinking into old me perspective.

Thank you.

Annette

[Alless]

Annette,

Good to hear.

Fear based I think but don’t feel that yet. Will look into that more

Just keep an eye out for it. Let me know if you feel it stirring at all.

and there was just inner silence, a sigh, relaxed shoulders and awareness of the birds, cars, white laundry flapping in the breeze…

Was there any hint of being able to find the "I" as a separate entity right there?

but a sort of floating moveable something.

OK. If I've got it right you are saying you sense that there is "something" there but can't find this "something."

Is that because it is really not there?



Could it be that there is a thought arising which whispers "But there HAS TO BE some THING here? Does that ring true?

There are answers which seek to be right versus wide eyed slow wondering. The second way of answering is more real or satisfying, more relating to actual experience rather than thinking about experience. Some of the first answers were quick thinking ones. Some a mixture and some relaxed curious answers which don’t fear being wrong.

Important noticing here - this discernment between actual experience and thinking about actual experience. Thinking about experience is the human default .

We're only interested in actual experience so sticking with that is the key. To make sure we're on the same page we'll take a deeper look at this.


So what is this Direct or Actual Experiencing? It is PURE

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation,not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising(but not their content)

We are depending totally on DE to LOOK for no self.

Now here are a couple of exercises that help us experience what it is like to get out of our heads and see what is really going on in present moment experience - Direct or Actual Experience. (DE or AE)

If I was to ask you what color is the heel of your left sock or shoe, there are at least two ways to answer. One is you could answer from memory or alternatively you could go and LOOK.

What color is is the heel of your left sock or shoe?


When you LOOK DIRECTLY is it what you thought it was?


Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

One of the traps we can fall into without even noticing is going to memory (thought) for an answer rather than LOOKING directly.


Going straight to DE EVERY TIME to EXPERIENCE an answer - no matter how simple_ cuts to the core of this exploration so much faster



One of the things that veils DE is the phenomena of labeling

Here is something Ilona wrote about labeling
https://markedeternal.blogspot.com/search?q=labels

Let’s use DE with seeing and hearing for a start

As you are sitting responding to this post describe……
What are you are seeing? (without labels.)




What are you are hearing? (without labels.)

Health /pain flare up and a sinking into old me perspective.

Diving in here could be fruitful. We could look at this after your break if you would like to Annette. That will give us a chance to lay some ground work in the next few days also.

Bit of a delay in replying.

If you are unable to post a response just give me a heads up that there's a bit of a speed bump so I know you're still there. A simple one word post will do the job if you are able.


A

[Annette33]

Hi Alan

I was about to say sorry i havent had time due to work, residual health stuff to think things through sooner than this, then started laughing! Because i didnt need time to think:

Going straight to DE EVERY TIME to EXPERIENCE an answer - no matter how simple_ cuts to the core of this exploration so much faster

That’s really helpful. Thank you. Wow as a way of life that would be awesome. Even remembering several times a day.

Was there any hint of being able to find the "I" as a separate entity right there?

A searching but not finding. A kind of must be there somewhere foggy sub thought. Eyes looking in different directions round my head! Where is it? Cant find it. And yet a belief still lurking, A resisting giving up that belief?

Could it be that there is a thought arising which whispers "But there HAS TO BE some THING here? Does that ring true?

Yes, what if it really is that simple. what if there really is no i? excitement/ buzzing at this thought. a turning to DE of the purple cushion by me and the yellow wall, looking and feeling them. the texture, detail, hearing now someone playing a violin.

What are you are seeing/hearing? (without labels.)

Seeing: Shiny light, dull light, geometric shapes, colours etc but this is still labelling so i have to say I cant describe direct seeing.

Same with hearing: Humming, creak, whooshing, breathing sound, these seem like more subtle labels but still labels. So i cant write what the DE is.

Fear turned up - fear of losing identity, of the label 'me' of knowing that i do this and that and dont like this and that etc. Fear of feeing lost, a wanting and also a not wanting to realise no self.

Also some tears, grief yesterday when reflecting on no 'i' and experiencing more openness.

Can 'i' do anything? Did 'i' write my motivation for this process is 11/10? Sometimes it seems there is power / will behind 'i' and other times it seems impotent. Have i decided to type?
Does the i create suffering? i would have said yes before but now i wonder if 'i' is powerless.

Looking and feeling now, there's mass, movement, sensations, heat, air, consciousness all mysteriously blended into an experiencing 'mind-body'. There is no concept of 'i' 'outside' the body-mind. Yes. i only turns up as thought content. And then there's this belief that that doesnt mean there's no 'me'. hmmmmm.

What color is is the heel of your left sock or shoe? When you LOOK DIRECTLY is it what you thought it was?

the memory of the terracotta colour sock is a pale reflection of the direct experience. The DE is vivid, alive, immediate, direct in fact!

I seem to need time to answer, Alan - i am engaging slowly with each question, and also feel some pressure to respond daily. Maybe if there are a lot of areas you're pointing to i can pick one or two that day? This will be especially helpful when i'm away and using a phone rathe than laptop. Or perhaps i need to just get on and look and am thinking too much.

There's a sense of a missing piece of the puzzle. Could be over thinking again.

Warm wishes
Annette

[Annette33]

Hi Alan
Just to add, seems like there’s still ownership of experience as mine, although ‘I’ thoughts are just thought content and not me.
Warmly
Annette

[Annette33]

And another thing 😀 a sense while moving to music this morning that moving is just happening and the thought this is just happening, and what would it be like to let go, surrender the sense of ownership and from that a great smile and happy mood and then back to trying to work it out and own it

Thank you Alan

[Alless]

Hello Annette,

Let's start at the end !!

I seem to need time to answer, Alan - i am engaging slowly with each question, and also feel some pressure to respond daily. Maybe if there are a lot of areas you're pointing to i can pick one or two that day? This will be especially helpful when i'm away and using a phone rathe than laptop. Or perhaps i need to just get on and look and am thinking too much.

Engaging fully with each question is so necessary. So please take your time.

The reason for requesting a daily interaction is to keep momentum going and keep as much attention to this exploration as you can. It relates to the commitment you referred to in your initial post. Quickly replying to a question for the sake of it is not what this is about. If you were to reply every other day and were spending much time throughout a day with the questions then that is likely what would be more helpful. The beauty with this investigation is that when we feel the fire of discovery really taking hold that we find ourselves noticing and exploring not just as separate exercises but also while we go about our day to day activities. Keeping the aliveness of this fire of discovery is key.

So replying every other day OR reply partially each day say for 2 or 3 days is fine. Let me know what works best for you.

then started laughing! Because i didnt need time to think:

Beautiful !!

Cant find it. And yet a belief still lurking, A resisting giving up that belief?

What does this resistance feel like?

Seeing: Shiny light, dull light, geometric shapes, colours etc but this is still labelling so i have to say I cant describe direct seeing.

Some really clear seeing here in your response to what are you seeing / hearing (without labels) question.
I'd like to clarify what we mean by labeling here when you say "this is still labelling". And yes, attaching a name to anything is indeed a label. However we do have to use labels to communicate and point. So what we are aiming for is using the most basic / primal label possible. If this is still a little confusing, it typically becomes clear in doing the next couple of exercises.

Fear turned up - fear of losing identity, of the label 'me' of knowing that i do this and that and dont like this and that etc. Fear of feeing lost, a wanting and also a not wanting to realise no self.

Also some tears, grief yesterday when reflecting on no 'i' and experiencing more openness.

With a dismantling of the believed "I" the referencing to this imagined entity starts to be called into question. This dismantling can initially be happening without us being necessarily acutely consciously aware of it happening. It can be very disorienting and can invoke deep emotions like grief and fear. These emotions can be experienced in many ways and with varying intensity.

Please let me know if emotion starts to impose itself where significant discomfort is experienced.

Does the i create suffering? i would have said yes before but now i wonder if 'i' is powerless.

In truth it is not the "I" thought that creates the suffering but BELIEVING that there is an "I". Subsequent to seeing there is no "I/me" the "I" thought still may arise however we now see it for what it is - a thought in imagination. This can be experienced as the "I" that SEEMS to be there in some situations even though we've seen beyond doubt that it is not real.



In your added note (love the spontaneity in added notes) you say ....

although ‘I’ thoughts are just thought content

When you look at what is being experienced directly, is what you say really the truth for you that "‘I’ thoughts are just thought content"?

seems like there’s still ownership of experience as mine

If there is ownership there must be an owner. Please LOOK DIRECTLY and tell me what owns this experience?



What are you apart from experience?



Where is the boundary between what is you and experience?



Can you in any way control experience or does it just arise / unfold?



I would like to end this post with this exercise which helps us with what pure seeing really is.

Labeling is one overlay that is happening so instantaneously that it happens for most people automatically without them realizing it. Labeling pervades the thinking mind. The aim is not to rid ourselves of labels (as we pointed to already we have to use them to communicate in conventional daily living) but to see them for what they are. Labeling is sometimes described as at least one step removed from reality.

Here is an exercise to help see how labeling can cloud AE. (I’ll use AE as short for Actual Experience)

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN', what is the actual experience?

You are seeing green, right? Or as you look at the word green are you actually seeing red but believing the minds interpretation of the word green?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.

Annette, I am wondering in what way you may be feeling about answering this post. Is a day enough? Would you like a couple of days? Would it work better to respond in 2 or 3 parts?



Let me know what you feel will work for you and you can always adjust as you go through.



And if something spontaneously arises which you want to let me know about, I'm happy for you to let me know straight away. You don't have to wait until the "next" post. !

Alan

[Annette33]

Hi Alan
Yes I will answer in two parts. Thank you. Until then just to say there’s a feeling arising a bit like
stepping over a cliff edge, though actually I’m sitting in a small room with what the eyes perceive as muted yellows and browns and greens, round and angular shapes, noticing the body, textures, moved by breathing itself, and the smell of ‘stir fry’. Lunch time!
With gratitude
Annette