Natestari

[Natestari]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Dissolution of the self concept by guiding you to see how you have created your self image through your experiences and expectations of apparent others…. but that’s it’s not the truth and is illusion as we are not actually separate, so eroding the barriers to seeing truth.

What are you looking for at LU?
To experience oneness and further help to
see truth and dissolve the blocks to
Seeing and understanding oneness and unconditional love as the truth of who
I really am. Guidance to help me understand that which I don’t yet.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Questions to instigate self inquiry to help me see things differently or at least question the way I currently view my apparent world. Help and communication from someone who has been through this process. A mentor.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Breathwork, plant medicines and now ‘A course in miracles.’

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Elad]

Hi Natesari, my name is Elad and I would be happy to do this exploration with you, if we see that it makes sense. Please read carefully and respond to the following points, which are a mix of universal LU elements and elements of how I guide.

1. During this process we will attend only to your own direct experience. We will not be discussing theories or beliefs or other methods, including from non-duality and etc. I will ask you questions and give exercises and you will look and answer me from your direct experience.

2. The two most important ingredients in this process are your wish to see what is true and your willingness to look deeply at questions, give wholehearted engagement to experiments/exercises presented to you, and report your experience here with 100% honesty.

3. Please read the following documents from LU carefully and make sure you are on board with their content:


http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


4. For the process to be focused and fruitful, I like to make an agreement that both guide and client (i.e you and me if we do this together) respond on this thread every day, and in the case of special circumstances where we cannot, still touch space here on the thread to say so, the day before or on the day. In the same spirit I like to work with people who have the motivation and availability to make this process a primary priority in their life for the duration of the cooperation. If any of this does not fit your life rhythm, style or preferences, please let me know and another guide will work with you.


How does this sound with you? What may I call you?

Warmly,
Elad

[Natestari]

HI Elad,

That's all good with me. I am Natalie - you can call me that, or Nat....i don't mind.

Thank you,

Natalie.

[Elad]

Hi Nat,

Okay -

There is no separate or independent self/controller/chooser in any shape or form, and there never was and there never will be.

Write me about how you react to this. Just rant without controlling or censoring, don't try hard to get anything right. Just rant spontaneously and with absolute honesty and give us both a chance to see what comes, also allow room for you to be surprised. Write for at least 10 minutes.

Kindly,
Elad

[Natestari]

There is no separate or independent self/controller/chooser in any shape or form, and there never was and there never will be.

I feel like i understand this on some level....that consciousness is experiencing itself in many different ways through apparent bodies to see what it's like to be separate and how devastating it is.....all manner of possible experiences and outcomes. And basically there is no free will so even the things i believe i am deciding, i'm not deciding....i have no choice in what i decide, it's written. It feels like i have a decision in the moment but that was always gonna be the decision so worrying about anything is futile. Which sounds great in theory but still feels like choice in the moment. Feeling by this statement i am a meagre puppet. Makes me feel a bit used actually writing this although i don't feel that in reality.

So I am being done through....i am being experienced, in what feels like physical form but which is an illusion.

Seems like a really clever way to hide truth....looking outside at the builders who have turned up to fix next doors roof and wondering why that concept ever arrived and what is it for? Also, some apparent others seem to get a far worse experience than others. Feeling glad i got this one, whilst understanding on some level.....i'm experiencing everything else at the same time.

Thinking it may have been a fun idea for the creator but really not for the separate self experiencing it in the moment. Feels a bit cruel. Like an idea that should be scrapped. Really bad idea.

[Elad]

Okay you did well in the sense thst I asked you to share thoughts and beliefs freely and you did.

Now, we are here to work only with direct experience, not with beliefs, even the ones that feel very real.

1) What in direct experience tells you that there is a self or that there isn't one?

Not from belief and not from mystical experience and not from "intuitive feeling or knowing" but very concrete.

2) What are you really looking for with this investigation? What do you really want from your heart?

With care,
Elad

[Natestari]

So in direct experience, what tells me that there is a self is that i can see my physical body, i can feel it too. I feel pain if i cut myself and other physical beings interact with me. I have an identity/personality which is unique to me. Even when i dream and i apparently have no physical body, i feel separate - other dream figures interact with me.

What I am looking for is a deeper understanding of the truth of me and to get closer to not feeling separate and having an open heart, feeling oneness and love. I would really love to feel more love....real love.

[Elad]

Hi Nat, ok, good. Now what I would like for you to do is put aside all judgements and ideas you might have about who you are and what reality is, and engage this process with an open mind and open curiosity to discover more about what/how you and reality is.

1) All right?

We will do some inital exercises, to tune in. Gradually (sometimes suddenly), it will get more clear how we are making it possible for love and truth to be enjoyed.

There is a big difference believing something and seeing something. Here is an example to illustrate the difference. If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking. For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

2) Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

[Natestari]

Yes that's clear! I like it already!

I did remember what socks i had on without looking today but this is a rare occurrance :)

[Elad]

Yes that's clear! I like it already!

I did remember what socks i had on without looking today but this is a rare occurrance :)

Great :)

Direct Experience

Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for awhile, let your sight focus shift around in the space, shift, shift shift. Observe how the mind is labelling every thing and is embellishing them with associations and stories. Give it some time. Then, stop paying attention to the mind labeling and associations, just look at the seeing itself. Observe the pure process of seeing, just for short moments, no efforts to keep it going for a long time. This is direct experience (DE).

Let me know how it went, what you experienced and noticed.

[Natestari]

So i noticed that there isn't much labelling happening, thoughts are quiet - just seeing.....almost like a sitting back and allowing all the edges to flow into one another, as if in 2d rather than 3d.....so that the edges blend into each other and things look less separate. How things can blend into one with a perceptual shift....the edges blur.

[Natestari]

Oh and it feels like i'm looking from behind my eyes....not through them.

[Elad]

Nice.

1) When you look to what it is that seems to be a you looking behind your eyes, what is there?


2) “I” labelling

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?

Let me know how you go and what you notice.

[Natestari]

1) When i look to that which is looking from behind my eyes, it feels like a presence, a vastness that i do not consider my personality self but that which isn't of thought, that which just is, life, awareness without narrative or thought.

2). So this exercise brought up more thoughts i 5 minutes than i typically have now, i believe because theres a bit of apparent pressure to notice them,

There's more on the self side than other. The dog came up as i started and flooded my mind with thoughts around how loud his panting is, and that it's distracting me. A thought about food and one about selling my business which was due to a meeting earlier today. The other side thoughts were so random, One guy popped into my head who i worked with when i was 19....i haven't seen him since then. The other was about a friend and was a judgement thought.

So essentially - 3 x the amount on the self side. But more thought than is typical most of the time.

[Elad]

Hi Natalie!

1) When i look to that which is looking from behind my eyes, it feels like a presence, a vastness that i do not consider my personality self but that which isn't of thought, that which just is, life, awareness without narrative or thought.

All right. Now, regarding this presence or vastness:

a) in direct experience, can it in any way be separated from awareness and from all of experience, can it in any way be found outside of experience, or would it be fair to say, that it is no way separate from the whole of life, perception, THIS etc?

b) this vastness, can you find any center to it? I am NOT asking if it "feels like there is a center". A false belief can easily create a feeling. I am asking you can in fact find any center?

c) this presence/vastness, do you control it, decide over it, etc. or is it happening by itself, beyond you/not-you, and not in the control of a separate self?

d) this presence/vastness, is there any real reason to call it noun (a subject or object) rather then a verb (presencing/vastnessing)? Would it be fair to say that both are only language approximations and THIS is beyond subject/object, noun/verb?

e) How do you feel after looking into a)-d) ? How are you feeling right now, engaging this? (consider this last question freshly after answering a)-d).


I might have questions to the other exercise, but I want you to give full attention to the questions above for now.

Kindly,
Elad