Wake up!

[BAwake2day]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Oneness, spirit having a human experience through my existence.

What are you looking for at LU?
Freedom from the spiritual dogmas. The truth. Connection to essence.
After studying and practicing all forms of spirituality, now is the moment to stop the chase, to surrender to the truth, to lose the lie and free the spirit.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I am eager for reflections from another who has already lost the self and found the oneness. I am eager to engage in the breakdown of the ideas, beliefs, and misconceptions my existence has been built on. Perspective from outside my eyes, and senses.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been a seeker for 30 years. I come from a Sufi background. I've studied various spiritual teachers and practiced mindfulness, and meditation for a long time. I'm hoping to move past the spiritual dogmas to the core of the teachings of so many religious and spiritual teachers. I need help revealing the truth that I feel, sense, and at times one with.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[poppyseed]

Hi BAwake2day
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[BAwake2day]

Rali, thank you for investing the time to guide those of us seeking the truth.

I responded to you via DM, please let me know if that is the best method.

Some clarity before we start, I've been "playing" with the notion of the separate self for decades, however only recently through my work with an old mentee of yours, Meredith Hooke have I begun to fully embrace the concept. Meredith and I both found it serendipitous that you are also guiding me. She has great reverence for you and I'm honored to have you with me on this journey.

I'm very eager to start. I live in New Mexico, US. MST. A daily visit would be ideal.

[poppyseed]

Hi BAwake2day
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Rali, thank you for investing the time to guide those of us seeking the truth.

It’s my pleasure!

I responded to you via DM, please let me know if that is the best method.

I haven’t received any DM. I have received an email and a reply on the forum. The forum (here) is where our conversation will be happening.

Some clarity before we start, I've been "playing" with the notion of the separate self for decades, however only recently through my work with an old mentee of yours, Meredith Hooke have I begun to fully embrace the concept. Meredith and I both found it serendipitous that you are also guiding me. She has great reverence for you and I'm honored to have you with me on this journey.

What a nice coincidence! Please send my love to Meredith!

I live in New Mexico, US. MST.

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage.

I'm very eager to start. A daily visit would be ideal.

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[BAwake2day]

Hi BAwake2day
(is that what you want me to call you?)

No, you can call me Amin.

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

Freedom, confirmation of long-held beliefs. Clarity about how to proceed.

3. What do you want not to happen?

Open to it all. Excited about the truth.

4. What are you hoping for?

Peace. quiet. harmony. loss of self.

5. What is missing?

Nothing.

[poppyseed]

Hi Amin

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?


By the way you skipped one question and/or answered a different one:

3. What do you want not to happen?

Open to it all. Excited about the truth.

Please let me know if there are any fears...

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Love
Rali

[BAwake2day]

3. What do you want not to happen?

I don't want to struggle in engaging with others who are lost in their visions of life and relationships. I'm unclear as how to engage with others, mired in the standard illusion of life and existence, expecting to engage with "I". It feels as though the separate selves find union in their separateness. Do I isolate (my instinct) or remain engaged in the separate existence that societies are built on. I do not want to struggle to coexist. But then, WHO would be struggling?

This is not something that I do not want to happen but curious about. It is the only intellectual disconnect with the notion of oneness.

It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe

Indeed. I've been a seeker for a long time, studied the great teachers and the dogmas associated with them all. I understand that most are in their own way inferring the same concept of oneness, but they lack the directness and simplicity of THIS approach. It's a paradigm shift indeed.

When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult.

In many ways I believe I have already realized the truth, to my core. In hindsight, I believe the truth has always been known to me but the demands, expectations, and juxtapositions of others, and societies have always tugged. I look forward to your guidance on how to balance it all. If at all.

The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

I celebrate this simplicity. Not seeking = peace.

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Brilliant question. "I" see the "I" from a universal view. bird's eye view. akin to a tree in a forest. "I" have played a part in a bigger scheme defined by the circumstances and coincidences of my human life. "I" is more identified by the expectations and identities given to Amin by others.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

Relief! followed by all the practical doubts and questions associated with my perceived responsibilities to others.

Where exactly did you look?

Again from the view of the bird overhead of my existence. From the eyes of family and friends. Society.

What exactly did you find?

"I" find myself as a piece of a puzzle. a simple widget intended to do and be what is expected of me.

Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

There is a mix of bliss and fear. a potpourri of silence mixed with panicked screams of alarm and responsibilities. It feels as if I have stuck a toe in the waters of an ocean but my mind warns me to no go further. What if? How do I coexist in relationships? How do I function if there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness?

Intellectual questions that "I" recognize to be the ego but that are so intertwined with my understanding of "I" that to let go of them seems awesome but unfathomable.

Much gratitude to you. I love your art by the way.

A

[poppyseed]

Hi Amin

I don't want to struggle in engaging with others who are lost in their visions of life and relationships. I'm unclear as how to engage with others, mired in the standard illusion of life and existence, expecting to engage with "I". It feels as though the separate selves find union in their separateness. Do I isolate (my instinct) or remain engaged in the separate existence that societies are built on. I do not want to struggle to coexist. But then, WHO would be struggling?

There is a mix of bliss and fear. a potpourri of silence mixed with panicked screams of alarm and responsibilities. It feels as if I have stuck a toe in the waters of an ocean but my mind warns me to no go further. What if? How do I coexist in relationships? How do I function if there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness?

It’s helpful to notice fears that are present. A fear usually is there to protect us from harm. In this case it protects “you” from changing and losing your ”humanity”. The fear itself is not to be feared. It's a mechanism. Working perfectly as a security system. It is protecting something from being found out. It is a sensation. Look at the fear and just let it be here. Find where in the body is being felt, bring it closer, invite it to share its wisdom. It's fine to just let it be. Respect it. Bow to it. Then look what is behind fear.

We’ll look at “others” and it will make more sense, but let me ask you how can something that has never existed change (i.e "I")? What you are saying is presuming an agency that is engaging with other agencies. Did you believe in Santa when you were a kid? If so, do you remember it was such a magic, a mystery, and then one day you realise that Santa is not real.
What changed? Did Christmas change? Did your character change? Did Santa change? Or was it a simple drop of a belief?
Don’t worry about this too much it will make a lot more sense later in the inquiry. Please let me know if they are strong fears and resistance that might be an obstacle to the inquiry.

Thank you for your detailed answer with respect to the separate self! It gives me an idea where to begin.

Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises.
There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.


Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[BAwake2day]

First, apologies for the silence yesterday. I try not to engage with anything digital on the weekends.

I'm applying the wisdom learned here from you and the community deeply to life, focused on not wasting moments as much. This is A LOT! My mind is blown and the impact on my "human" life is intense, but I'm certain you read that A LOT! I find relief in focusing on the moments as my "mind" processes the full meaning of so much truth. You are correct, that awareness of something so obvious yet so disregarded is nothing more than human awareness but its relevance to EVERYTHING is huge. Just like the day one realizes that there's no Santa Claus!

I'm sure we will discuss how "I" can continue on a human experience without a self. I'm approaching it that there's not much "control" or even impact to be had, as the universe (my true self) is as it is and as will be, and my supposed role is the belief of my ego and the persona societies and ego have created. Just like the apple! The mind is in full alarm mode in full glory.

but let me ask you how can something that has never existed change (i.e "I")? What you are saying is presuming an agency that is engaging with other agencies. Did you believe in Santa when you were a kid? If so, do you remember it was such a magic, a mystery, and then one day you realise that Santa is not real.

Yes! But, WHO is making this awareness? WHO is presuming? WHO remembers Santa magic? I trust your answer is the mind/ the ego. So.... we're trying to convince the mind that it is not real? For the human mind to become aware of it's hallucinations???

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

I love this and "get it". with this question... WHO is looking at what is actually going on? WHO is only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience? Is that "I"? If so, how is "I" becoming aware that its

something that has never existed

??

Thanks for everything.

Amin

[poppyseed]

Hi Amin

Let’s agree to stick to the questions and not philosophise/talk about teachings here!

Yes! But, WHO is making this awareness? WHO is presuming? WHO remembers Santa magic? I trust your answer is the mind/ the ego. So.... we're trying to convince the mind that it is not real? For the human mind to become aware of it's hallucinations???

something that has never existed

??

No, my answer is not “the mind” or the “ego” as these are fictional concepts like “Santa”. So technically they cannot do anything very similarly to how Santa doesn’t bring and make your presents :)). There are thoughts about past events (memories) and these thoughts are known. But what makes the agency/entity that knows them a necessity? Is life happening like in language where you have a subject doing something (action) on an object? We have sentences like “The grass is growing,” in which the grass becomes the doer of growing. Or “I am breathing,” in which the “I” seems as though it is the doer that does the breathing, and so on. Is it really happening like that? We’ll come back to this so don’t worry too much.
There is a difference between concepts like chair, country, and Superman/Santa. The first points to a “material thing" (e.g. "apple"); the second to a label that is used for communication but cannot be found as a thing; the third is an imaginary character, a word that points to something that isn't real. I would say that "I", “ego” and “mind” fall in the last category.

We’ll explore the “mind” and “ego” a bit more but for now let's teach you how to look for what is actually here. So, let’s not rush and stick to the questions please!

Please if you see a question in blue, answer it! Please answer a “?” even if it’s not in blue! Look at the “apple” picture and the text about it and answer the questions:

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[BAwake2day]

Hi Rali, thank you for reeling me in on this process. I will abide by your guidance.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

This one has me a bit confused. Clearly, an apple cannot be found in the actual experience of your image but yes it can if it is present. The label (in this case) identifies an object that does indeed exist outside of the label (if present). If I'm correct until and if I take a bite of the apple and experience it, it does not exisit?? My confusion lies in the experience. As you have guided me a Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Therefore if I am seeing, tasting, and smelling the apple then it exists?

But what makes the agency/entity that knows them a necessity? Is life happening like in language where you have a subject doing something (action) on an object?

AAHHH! brilliant explanation. No, the entity is irrelevant in the "happening". "I" am not relevant at all in life happening. Ego, mind are my labels for fictional concepts. wow.

I've been deep into Ram Dass for a long time. thanks to you and this process, I get him now more than ever before. Amazing how wise men/women through time have come to the same exact conclusion about it all and yet our societies continue to propagate such falsehoods.

How would you guide on continuing down the same path of pretend existence in a human construct of life with the awareness of it being non-existent? I know I'm getting ahead again, please bear with me.

[poppyseed]

Hi Amin

How would you guide on continuing down the same path of pretend existence in a human construct of life with the awareness of it being non-existent? I know I'm getting ahead again, please bear with me.

I would prefer if you answer that question yourself once you get a bit deeper into DE. I would appreciate your patience. Now back to your answers:

The label (in this case) identifies an object that does indeed exist outside of the label (if present). If I'm correct until and if I take a bite of the apple and experience it, it does not exisit?? My confusion lies in the experience.

Therefore if I am seeing, tasting, and smelling the apple then it exists?

There are tasting (tastes), seeing (colours/shapes), feeling (sensations when eating and touching), smelling (smells) – no hearing an “apple”. If you notice I used verbs as these are happening in motion, there is a flux not a frozen picture. Then thought appears and describes that you are seeing an “apple”, tasting an “apple” etc. Just because these particular seeing, tasting,… have appeared together in the past they are grouped together as an “apple” experience. What makes the “object apple” inherently existing? At which point will it stop being an object/apple? What makes an apple an “apple”? We have green, red, yellow “apples” so obviously is not the red colour that makes an apple exist on its own, right? We have a lot of other sweet and sour fruits so it’s not the taste, right? We have a lot of other objects that feel the same way, so it can’t be the sensation. So what is it then? Do you see where I’m going with this? If it is the right combination of specific senses that makes an object ”apple” exist, does it exist on its own and DE’s just describe the object or it’s the other way around- we have the 5 specific senses and thought groups them and creates an object? Can an "object" then be in general a LABEL for a specific combination of any of the five senses?
Let’s explore seeing a bit more so you can get an idea where I'm going with this:
Please look at the computer (smartphone or tablet) display before you. Is that screen separate somehow of seeing? Is the screen outside of seeing? Is seeing the screen and the screen two separate things? is there a place where the seeing (DE), is coming from, or seeing (DE) is all that there is? Is there a point of view (seer)? Is there a need for a seer?


Love
Rali

[BAwake2day]

What makes the “object apple” inherently existing

"I" do! My thoughts do a santa creation of apple!

At which point will it stop being an object/apple? What makes an apple an “apple”?

When it stops being a thought. The label makes it an apple as thought and language assimilate the various aspects into "apple", akin again to Santa, ego, mind, "I", You.

We have green, red, yellow “apples” so obviously is not the red colour that makes an apple exist on its own, right? We have a lot of other sweet and sour fruits so it’s not the taste, right?

Right. its the mind's determination. its an arbitary allocation of thoughts/

So what is it then? Do you see where I’m going with this? If it is the right combination of specific senses that makes an object ”apple” exist, does it exist on its own and DE’s just describe the object or it’s the other way around- we have the 5 specific senses and thought groups them and creates an object? Can an "object" then be in general a LABEL for a specific combination of any of the five senses?

Indeed, it is rather random and arbitrary that the mind labels something that it wants it to be. Without that... it does not exist. Similar to undiscovered plants, planets, tastes, sounds. Until we label them and identify them with our sensory explanation of them, they do not exist. We're amock in labels.

Is that screen separate somehow of seeing?

Yes, the screen is irrelevant in seeing.

Is the screen outside of seeing?

Indeed, the screen is a means to the end of seeing what is on the screen.

Is seeing the screen and the screen two separate things?

Yes.

is there a place where the seeing (DE), is coming from, or seeing (DE) is all that there is?

Seeing is all that there is.

Is there a point of view (seer)? Is there a need for a seer?

With no "I" there is no point of view. Absolutely no need for the seer. the screen and what is on it are there regardless.


Phew, my head is spinning.

[poppyseed]

Hi Amin

The label makes it an apple as thought and language assimilate the various aspects into "apple", akin again to Santa, ego, mind, "I", You.

Very good!

Is the screen outside of seeing?

Indeed, the screen is a means to the end of seeing what is on the screen.

Is seeing the screen and the screen two separate things?

Yes.

I meant looking at the actual screen (not what is on it). It could be any other “object”. Are objects outside of seeing? Is there a line that separates the seen from the seeing? Or the seen and seeing are one?
In DE there is only seeing/hearing/etc. and thinking provides the labels.

Different colours in seeing create the illusion of things but all that is there is seeing. It’s like a picture where everything is drawn in pencil on paper – the illusion of separation is created by different colours used – otherwise it’s all paper.
Different levels of sounds create the illusion of a song but all that is there is hearing. Can you see that?
Also, what is the space between “objects” made of? What is the difference between “here” and “there” without thought content?

Love
Rali

[BAwake2day]

Are objects outside of seeing? Is there a line that separates the seen from the seeing? Or the seen and seeing are one?

They all are part and parcel of the same thing. There is only one, across all objects, labels, thoughts, DE.

Different colours in seeing create the illusion of things but all that is there is seeing. It’s like a picture where everything is drawn in pencil on paper – the illusion of separation is created by different colours used – otherwise it’s all paper.

Brilliant!

Different levels of sounds create the illusion of a song but all that is there is hearing. Can you see that?

Indeed! Yes!

Also, what is the space between “objects” made of? What is the difference between “here” and “there” without thought content?

NOTHING!