Eager to Begin!

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mo23
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Eager to Begin!

Postby mo23 » Tue Aug 29, 2023 2:05 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There really is no self! The self I have imagined myself to be has been constructed by other people's opinions as well as by my own thoughts/beliefs. When I tune in, as I have now been practicing doing, there is really nothing substantial there. It is fascinating, intriguing and exciting to see this!

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for help with being aware of and looking at those places where I am not yet seeing. I am looking for community, encouragement, support. I am looking for the freedom that comes from understanding not self and knowing the truth of being "all that is".

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to feel safe and comfortable with my guide, to feel supported and encouraged. I expect a guided conversation to assist me in experiencing the lack of self in day to day interactions particularly with regard to relationships.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been meditating for 2 years. I recently took a course with my meditation teacher on the "Three Perceptions" of Buddhism. This touched on impermanence and suffering and ended with a section on "not self". I was hooked! I felt such resonance with these perceptions. I purchased "Liberation Unleashed" which I am just beginning to read and I have watched a number of Ilona's Inquiry conversations on YouTube.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Elad
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Re: Eager to Begin!

Postby Elad » Sat Sep 02, 2023 10:26 am

Hi, my name is Elad and I would be happy to do this exploration with you, if we see that it makes sense. Please read carefully and respond to the following points, which are a mix of universal LU elements and elements of how I guide.

1. During this process we will attend only to your own direct experience. We will not be discussing theories or beliefs or other methods, including from non-duality and etc. I will ask you questions and give exercises and you will look and answer me from your direct experience.

2. The two most important ingredients in this process are your wish to see what is true and your willingness to look deeply at questions, give wholehearted engagement to experiments/exercises presented to you, and report your experience here with 100% honesty.

3. Please read the following documents from LU carefully and make sure you are on board with their content:


http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


4. For the process to be focused and fruitful, I like to make an agreement that both guide and client (i.e you and me if we do this together) respond on this thread every day, and in the case of special circumstances where we cannot, still touch space here on the thread to say so, the day before or on the day. In the same spirit I like to work with people who have the motivation and availability to make this process a primary priority in their life for the duration of the cooperation. If any of this does not fit your life rhythm, style or preferences, please let me know and another guide will work with you.


How does this sound with you? What may I call you?

Warmly,
Elad
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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mo23
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Re: Eager to Begin!

Postby mo23 » Sat Sep 02, 2023 7:12 pm

Hi Elad, I don't think I have figured out the quote feature! But I will reply in this way for now.
I am very pleased to hear from you! You may call me by my name: Maureen
1. During this process we will attend only to your own direct experience. We will not be discussing theories or beliefs or other methods, including from non-duality and etc. I will ask you questions and give exercises and you will look and answer me from your direct experience.

Learning how to attend to my own direct experience is exactly what I want to do. I will so appreciate your questions, exercises and guidance.

2. The two most important ingredients in this process are your wish to see what is true and your willingness to look deeply at questions, give wholehearted engagement to experiments/exercises presented to you, and report your experience here with 100% honesty.

YES! YES! I am willing and I am ready!

3. Please read the following documents from LU carefully and make sure you are on board with their content:


http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Done and I'm on board.


4. For the process to be focused and fruitful, I like to make an agreement that both guide and client (i.e you and me if we do this together) respond on this thread every day, and in the case of special circumstances where we cannot, still touch space here on the thread to say so, the day before or on the day. In the same spirit I like to work with people who have the motivation and availability to make this process a primary priority in their life for the duration of the cooperation. If any of this does not fit your life rhythm, style or preferences, please let me know and another guide will work with you.

I am motivated and available to make this a primary priority in my life. My time is my own and I am delighted for this opportunity!
While this is true, almost all the time, my son and family are currently visiting from overseas (until September 12).This does not require my full attention and I'm hoping that we can still get started. Perhaps a little more slowly until they are on their way. Would you be okay with that?


How does this sound with you? What may I call you?

Thank you, Elad! This all sounds wonderful and I am very grateful for your willingness to facilitate this new perception.
Warmly,
Maureen

Warmly,
Elad
[/quote]

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Elad
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Re: Eager to Begin!

Postby Elad » Sun Sep 03, 2023 9:39 am

Hi Maureen,

This all sounds great! Yes lets get started. With the motivation you are expressing I trust we will be good. You can call me Elad, that is my name :) Regarding quote function, sure sounds good, and I am also ok with using normal quoting (i.e. "...") for starters, if anything is unclear, we will figure it out.

Lets start here:

1) When you look in your direct experience here and now, not relying on content of thoughts, do you see that there is no separate/independent/choosing/controlling self/Maureen? Is this fully clear? If not, what do you find in direct experience, that seems to be the supposed self/Maureen?

2) "I expect a guided conversation to assist me in experiencing the lack of self in day to day interactions particularly with regard to relationships."

Tell me more about this. What do you mean by that? What does it mean for you to experience or not experience this? How do you see it unfolding in your life, as concretely as possible, maybe give example(s)?

Look forward to work with you! Warmly,
Elad
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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mo23
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Re: Eager to Begin!

Postby mo23 » Sun Sep 03, 2023 5:12 pm

'1) When you look in your direct experience here and now, not relying on content of thoughts, do you see that there is no separate/independent/choosing/controlling self/Maureen? Is this fully clear? If not, what do you find in direct experience, that seems to be the supposed self/Maureen?"

I have been playing with this in the last week and I can say that when I look for the self that is feeling an emotion or expressing an opinion I see that it does not exist as a solid entity. It feels like an insubstantial wisp, like smoke.
Can you help me inquire into my sense of being separate/independent/choosing/controlling?

"2) "I expect a guided conversation to assist me in experiencing the lack of self in day to day interactions particularly with regard to relationships.
Tell me more about this. What do you mean by that? What does it mean for you to experience or not experience this? How do you see it unfolding in your life, as concretely as possible, maybe give example(s)?"

If I understand that I am not an independent individual, that I am one with all that is then my perspective on relationships and interactions would shift dramatically. To know that there is not a me and an other, to understand our intertwining would replace resistance with curiosity. The idea that we are all expressions of Life flowing (is that how Ilona expresses it?) is very intriguing to me. I don't know how that would feel and it's not something I have ever contemplated before. But I see the suffering caused by the story of separation and letting that go feels very appealing.
Thank you, Elad!
Warmly,
Maureen

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Elad
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Re: Eager to Begin!

Postby Elad » Sun Sep 03, 2023 7:44 pm

Great begining!

"I have been playing with this in the last week and I can say that when I look for the self that is feeling an emotion or expressing an opinion I see that it does not exist as a solid entity. It feels like an insubstantial wisp, like smoke.
Can you help me inquire into my sense of being separate/independent/choosing/controlling?"

Good! Is there any self there, permanent, solid or with agency? Can you even find an insubstantial smokey one in direct experience? Or is it just thoughts/beliefs and sensations, and habitual tendency to think these are Maureen/a self/mine?


"To know that there is not a me and an other, to understand our intertwining would replace resistance with curiosity. The idea that we are all expressions of Life flowing (is that how Ilona expresses it?) is very intriguing to me. I don't know how that would feel and it's not something I have ever contemplated before. But I see the suffering caused by the story of separation and letting that go feels very appealing."

I have a sense you have some genuine intuition here, so keep listening to what it shows. That being said: Watch out this is also at least in part an imagination. Realizing that there is no separate self or doer doesn't suddenly remove forever all our patterns of resistance, all our psychological habits, etc. What happens is that is is seen that all that is happening automatically, habitually, without any controller/chooser/independent self doing it. And this clarity initiates and supports a process where unhelpful patterns can more easily be seen through and released (without any separate self seeing or doing it).

How do you react to this?


Please also do the following exercise that is conducive for seeing:

Direct/Actual Experience - Labelling Daily Activities


Please do this exercise as many times throughout the day as you
can. Label daily activities simply image/sight, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.
So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/sight
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct
experience).

One time during the day, sit down for 10 minutes, notice things, and write to me about it *in real time as you practice*, in the format/structure above, so for example:

Seeing screen, simply= sight
Hearing AC, simple= sound
Hearing bird, simply= sound
Feeling coolness on legs, simply= sensation

Etc.

Let me know what is noticed in experimenting with this.

Look forward to continue the process with you!
Elad
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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mo23
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Re: Eager to Begin!

Postby mo23 » Mon Sep 04, 2023 1:07 am

"Good! Is there any self there, permanent, solid or with agency? Can you even find an insubstantial smokey one in direct experience? Or is it just thoughts/beliefs and sensations, and habitual tendency to think these are Maureen/a self/mine?"

I will spend more time inquiring into this for myself before replying. Interacting with more people over this next week I am sure I will have plenty of opportunities to look!


"Realizing that there is no separate self or doer doesn't suddenly remove forever all our patterns of resistance, all our psychological habits, etc."

That makes sense!

"What happens is that is is seen that all that is happening automatically, habitually, without any controller/chooser/independent self doing it."

I feel very excited by that thought. It really "blows my mind" as the saying goes! This is such a vastly new way of seeing. I am not currently seeing this way but I find myself intrigued with the notion that this is really how things are.

" And this clarity initiates and supports a process where unhelpful patterns can more easily be seen through and released (without any separate self seeing or doing it)."

This also makes sense.

Thanks for the exercise, Elad! I will let you know how it goes!

Warmly,
Maureen

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Elad
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Re: Eager to Begin!

Postby Elad » Mon Sep 04, 2023 6:30 am

"I feel very excited by that thought. It really "blows my mind" as the saying goes! This is such a vastly new way of seeing. I am not currently seeing this way but I find myself intrigued with the notion that this is really how things are."

What exactly tells you that you are not seeing this way? Try the opposite: There is no other way to see. What there is, is seeing happening effortlessly ownerlessly plus believing in the running stories in the mind about yourself and others. Nothing needs to change in the seeing nor in the running stories. Only notice how is this really created/emerging? Is there really a self in control and knowing what comes, the next thought, the next feeling, the next sensation, the next movement?
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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mo23
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2023 2:04 pm

Re: Eager to Begin!

Postby mo23 » Mon Sep 04, 2023 7:11 pm

Hi Elad,
Thanks for your reply! You have offered much to look at. I am busy today packing and organizing for a week away with family. Juggling a number of balls in the air is something I have found very stressful. Coming back to the simple labeling is helpful. I am realizing that all the labels refer to things that are not solid, not self. Also it is clear that I am not in control of the comings and goings of thoughts, seeing, sensation etc
Is much more to inquire into. We will be on a long drive tomorrow but I expect, since these ponderings are rarely far from my awareness, that I will be able to send you an email tomorrow. If not you can expect one on Wednesday.
Warmly,
Maureen

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Elad
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Re: Eager to Begin!

Postby Elad » Tue Sep 05, 2023 5:11 am

Great Maureen, you are doing "good looking" :) Until the next sharing, all the best 🤍
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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mo23
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2023 2:04 pm

Re: Eager to Begin!

Postby mo23 » Wed Sep 06, 2023 10:57 pm

Hello Elad!
I have been having many new opportunities to inquire over the last few days! Much social stimulation, noise, some drama, everyone together for a period of days. I feel this is a time of discovery for me, in ways I can't now articulate.
Just now I read the chapter on recognition in liberation unleashed. Some of it has touched a deep place in me. This for example:
"Recognition is a moment of cognition about something that we already know."
I love how this brings me back to myself, hinting at what I may know but turned away from or forgot.
Much of this chapter lands easily now. It makes sense and I look forward to inquiring into its truth in my experience.
What really intrigues me though is how everything is dependent on everything else as one movement. That life is just happening and everything is happening within it, is it. Nothing separate from anything else.
Is it possible to check this for myself, within my own experience?
Warmly,
Maureen

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Elad
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Re: Eager to Begin!

Postby Elad » Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:02 am

Hi Maureen, nice, the recognition pointer is important. Now:

Yes you can :)

Pay attention to the movement of emotions, sensations and thoughts as you are in the world and with others. Notice how it is not truly in control. Notice how attempts at controlling and judging the inner life, and living based on ideas - also spiritual ideas - create distance and pain. Notice how you don't need to control for action to be sensitive and measured, self-correcting, self-evolving. And that this process is not happening in a illusionary separate self, but within the whole. See how acceptance of the inner life naturally opens towards natural non-separation that is not "a different mystical experience" but rather intimacy and non-separation from the normal life that has always been there, in all its colors.

What did and do you experience practicing with these pointers?

Also do this exercise:
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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Elad
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Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2023 6:25 am

Re: Eager to Begin!

Postby Elad » Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:09 am

Look around, if possible in nature great but anywhere will do. Shift attention between sights, shift shift. Then see how the mind is reacting with labeling, dividing, objectifying, embellishing with stories, putting into preconceived patterns, etc. Now again just see the seen as only the seen, simple, no big deal. Notice the difference between direct experience and mind extra. Don't try stop the mind, it's a natural phenomenon, just see the difference. Do the same in a space with people. Describe what you noticed.
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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mo23
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Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2023 2:04 pm

Re: Eager to Begin!

Postby mo23 » Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:58 pm

Hi Elad!
I feel the need to simplify my looking. To be aware of emotions, sensations, thoughts and self arising within a social situation, for example, and know that it is just part of what is in this moment. No need to get lost in any of it. Instead I can remain present and interested in the flow of Life happening around me. This feels like a right-sized bite for me right now.
Warmly,
Maureen

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Elad
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Re: Eager to Begin!

Postby Elad » Fri Sep 08, 2023 9:50 am

[quote=mo23 post_id=374181 time=1694123938 user_id=15580]
I feel the need to simplify my looking. To be aware of emotions, sensations, thoughts and self arising within a social situation
[/quote]

Ok. Emotions, s
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)


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