Seeking in progress, help needed

[wsb]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The self to me is a construct of the mind that is built up during childhood but has no real use to navigate through life. It thinks the world revolves around it and that it is special in some way, and separate from everything else.

What are you looking for at LU?
I ideally I would some help working through the fetters approach, but this is not 100% necessary. I have broken through the belief that there is a separate self and have experiences of greatly diminished separation, but there is most definitely a sense of a unitary me left. I am finding it hard to know what path to take and what I may be doing wrong, and I would greatly appreciate an outside perspective to assist as the seeking is turning circular. The end "goal" is liberation, or neither duality nor non-duality.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would like useful feedback to see where I am going wrong currently and what should be focused on, and generally help going in the right direction. Hopefully at some point experience liberation though not necessarily through the site.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I had a mystical experience that I left mostly neglected for years, and something clicked later on when I started listening to Eckhart Tolle a year and a half ago. Through Tolle's teachings I had experiences of freedom from the self and clarity, which pushed me to seek through the teachings of others. I have tried self inquiry along the lines of Rupert Spira, started the fetters approach with Kevin Schanilec, and from time to time try and take in the message of Tony Parsons/Jim Newman. Recently I have been reading the book from SimplyAlwaysAwake. I would consider myself a heavy seeker to the point that it is problematic.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Magdalena]

Hello wsb,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name’s Magdalena and I’m happy to assist you. I don’t do the fetters approach though. Hope it’s OK with you.

What name would you like me to call you?

To begin with, let’s get over a couple of formalities.
Please confirm that you’ve read and are OK with the following:
1) The LU Disclaimer http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Also, please watch this short video to learn how to use the Quote function which we will need in our conversation: viewtopic.php?t=660

I see you have done a lot of seeking and searching, but for the duration of our dialogue here, can you please try and put all your books, videos, etc. aside? Just to be able to focus on what we’re going to talk about.

It's also good for you to write back daily or every two days, if possible. You OK with that?

You sound very goal-oriented. So let's look at any expectations that you have about seeing through the self illusion:
How will you change?
How will life change?
What will be different?
What would you like to see happening and what wouldn’t you like to see happening when the illusion is seen through?
Please be specific: try and not talk concepts, like liberation or non-duality.


One last thing:
Have you ever considered that there is absolutely nothing you can do wrong? Whether it comes to paths, or anything else really.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

[wsb]

Thank you for the quick reply Magdalena! You can call me Wyatt. It is no problem that you do not deal with the fetters approach.

Please confirm that you’ve read and are OK with the following:

I am OK with the content of the links.

I see you have done a lot of seeking and searching, but for the duration of our dialogue here, can you please try and put all your books, videos, etc. aside? Just to be able to focus on what we’re going to talk about.

No problem.

It's also good for you to write back daily or every two days, if possible. You OK with that?

I should definitely be able to!

You sound very goal-oriented. So let's look at any expectations that you have about seeing through the self illusion:

I am confident that I have broken through the illusion of the separate self, the issue that I have is still a strong sense of "I am" or the "deep I" if that makes sense. I'd like to answer the following questions with expectations regarding that sense of "me" instead if I can.

How will you change?

I don't have much expectation that I would change, just that the sense of me would more or less dissolve.

How will life change?

I don't think it would change much, but with the "me" gone I would think there would be a lack of suffering associated with it.

What will be different?

Again I wouldn't expect much in daily life to be different other than the "me" and suffering not being present.

What would you like to see happening and what wouldn’t you like to see happening when the illusion is seen through?

As I believe the initial illusion of the separate self is gone, I do not have any desire in that way. The end of suffering would be welcomed once the deep sense of "me" has faded.

Have you ever considered that there is absolutely nothing you can do wrong? Whether it comes to paths, or anything else really.

Glad you asked this one :)
I have tried in the past going with this idea when listening to Tony Parsons/Jim Newman, however after a while it just led to seeking coming back even stronger. I started listening to their message after the initial illusion of the separate self was seen through, so that may have something to do with it.
I wouldn't say I think there is something I can do wrong, more that I want to use the most effective (not necessarily quickest) method to finally end the seeking and suffering.

Thank you!!!

[Magdalena]

Hello Wyatt,

I am confident that I have broken through the illusion of the separate self, the issue that I have is still a strong sense of "I am" or the "deep I"

So tell me: How does this “strong sense of ‘I am’" show up in daily life?

Please don’t use concepts that you’ve got from teachers or teachings. Try and relate to your experience instead. We need to communicate, and it may be that we are not on the same page with some terminology.
So let’s keep it simple, shall we?

…that the sense of me would more or less dissolve.

… with the "me" gone I would think there would be a lack of suffering associated with it.

I know that this is what fetters teachers teach, but other than their accounts, you have no proof that this is feasible, right?
Which is not to say this will not happen. It may. Or it may not.
Sorry to be blunt about things, but here we question any and all beliefs and ideas that come up.
If anything leads to what is called liberation, that does.

As I believe the initial illusion of the separate self is gone, I do not have any desire in that way.

Why do you say “I believe” when talking about your breaking through the illusion of the separate self?


Tell me:
Is someone there wanting to

use the most effective (not necessarily quickest) method to finally end the seeking and suffering?

Is someone in control of how it all unfolds?
Someone responsible for the end result?

Thank you!!!

You’re welcome, and thank you.

[wsb]

Magdalena,

These are some excellent questions!!!

So tell me: How does this “strong sense of ‘I am’" show up in daily life?

Please don’t use concepts that you’ve got from teachers or teachings. Try and relate to your experience instead. We need to communicate, and it may be that we are not on the same page with some terminology.
So let’s keep it simple, shall we?

Apologies for any confusion relating to terminology, I have a lot built up in my head that is likely not useful :D
This sense seems to be present for the majority of my day, aside from when I take the time to be still, or also when there are seemingly random unprompted moments of clarity with no sense of self or me or anything (may happen 2-4 times a day). When the latter happens life just goes by for a little while until the me reengages and tries to think about the experience or start seeking again.

I know that this is what fetters teachers teach, but other than their accounts, you have no proof that this is feasible, right?
Which is not to say this will not happen. It may. Or it may not.
Sorry to be blunt about things, but here we question any and all beliefs and ideas that come up.
If anything leads to what is called liberation, that does.

This there is where I would refer to those few times a day with random moments of clarity, where when I look back on them, there is no self or me and no suffering, life just goes on. That experiential proof would be what I rely on for expectations following liberation, just that this would be the permanent state of experience/reality.
Please continue being blunt, it is helpful!

Why do you say “I believe” when talking about your breaking through the illusion of the separate self?

Probably because there is doubt somewhere that the illusion hasn't been fully broken, which led me to reach out on LU. Also when the mind looks back on this experience, it can only believe as it is not in that state at the moment of writing.

Is someone in control of how it all unfolds?
Someone responsible for the end result?

I can't say I know this one. When I look for who is in control, no one is found.

Reading and responding to the last quote kicked the self or me out and brought about one of these times of clarity. This paragraph was typed by what is beyond the self in the clarity. Went back and saw the responses to the other quotes, there was little meaning behind the words and no desire to focus on them. There is a tinge of fear of losing this clarity somewhere.

[Magdalena]

Hello again, Wyatt,

Apologies for any confusion relating to terminology, I have a lot built up in my head that is likely not useful :D

It does tend to be conceptual, or based on second-hand experience. We don’t need that. Instead, let’s look at things with eyes wide open, like we know no terminology at all.

This sense seems to be present for the majority of my day, aside from when I take the time to be still

And what happens when you are not “taking the time to be still”? Like speaking to someone, working, driving, making a phone call, eating, etc.?

… or also when there are seemingly random unprompted moments of clarity with no sense of self or me or anything (may happen 2-4 times a day).

My, you bother to count those moments? Seriously?

… until the me reengages and tries to think about the experience or start seeking again.

So what does the “me” do exactly?
Does it say, “Wow, my fourth moment of clarity since lunch”?
Or ask, “Who do we listen to now? Tony? Rupert? Some other guy?”
Or does it do something else?

there is no self or me and no suffering, life just goes on.

Yes.
But the self/”me” is not there at all times. Also at moments of no clarity or of suffering. Other than the mental construct you mention in your intro.

That experiential proof would be what I rely on for expectations following liberation, just that this would be the permanent state of experience/reality.

Do you know of any state which is permanent? Name one or two, please.

Please continue being blunt, it is helpful!

I will, no worries. LOL

Probably because there is doubt somewhere that the illusion hasn't been fully broken, which led me to reach out on LU.

What makes you doubt? Like, once broken, can it be unbroken or something?

Also when the mind looks back on this experience, it can only believe as it is not in that state at the moment of writing.

What is “this experience” NOW that you think about it?
What’s it made of?

When I look for who is in control, no one is found.

Sure, this is the correct non-dual answer, right?
But have you noticed that you didn’t answer the first of these three questions?
This one:

Is someone there wanting to

use the most effective (not necessarily quickest) method to finally end the seeking and suffering?

Spend some time on this. Don’t just say, “oh, no one is found”.
Isn’t there some identity or other that feels like it’s desperate to be in control? (sounds like it)
Please share whatever comes up, fully and honestly.

Reading and responding to the last quote kicked the self or me out

Oh please, self is not something that can be kicked out.
How do you kick a construct of the mind in the first place??

This paragraph was typed by what is beyond the self in the clarity.

Good to know. Who/what was the intro typed by then?

Is anyone reading from the screen right now?
Anyone scratching Wyatt’s head or picking Wyatt’s nose as the words are being read?
Anyone thinking, “I need a beer now” or anything else?

There is a tinge of fear of losing this clarity somewhere.

What will happen if clarity is lost?

[wsb]

Magdalena,

After reading a few of your responses I laughed for several minutes because I saw how cerebral I was being about the process :D This is really helping.

And what happens when you are not “taking the time to be still”? Like speaking to someone, working, driving, making a phone call, eating, etc.?

I'm not exactly sure, much of the time the me is driving life forward and trying to control it. Sometimes life is just happening and other times it is covered with a train of thoughts.

My, you bother to count those moments? Seriously?

Not at all actually, that is just my way of saying a few.

Or ask, “Who do we listen to now? Tony? Rupert? Some other guy?”

It is usually doing exactly this hahaha, or it is trying to own the experience or get back to it some other way.

But the self/”me” is not there at all times. Also at moments of no clarity or of suffering. Other than the mental construct you mention in your intro.

So the point is that there never is a me even when we think there is, those are just thoughts about thoughts? The mind identification creates a sense of self.

Do you know of any state which is permanent? Name one or two, please.

I do not :D I see your point

What is “this experience” NOW that you think about it?
What’s it made of?

It's not really describable in a way, because there isn't anything there to describe. The best I can do is clarity or unfiltered reality. I guess "this experience" as I think about it is just a thought right now.

Spend some time on this. Don’t just say, “oh, no one is found”.
Isn’t there some identity or other that feels like it’s desperate to be in control? (sounds like it)
Please share whatever comes up, fully and honestly.

Something sort of freaky happened. Initially there were the thoughts of "I'm looking and there is nothing there, duh" then the thought, "its my spiritual identity" This prevailed for a while and I looked for it. Then the thought came, what if what is looking for your spiritual identity is the spiritual identity. That changed the inquiry pretty drastically. Thought disappeared, my eyes started to go out of focus, and I felt a strange pulling inside my body. This sounds ridiculous, but it felt like there was a plastic lining in the shape of my body just on the inside, like a layer the self was putting up between the body and the world, and it was being pulled away starting at my head. Then there were a few thought like 'surrender' and shortly after the experience ended. Again this is just a description after the fact so it probably isn't as accurate as it could be. Thank you for urging me to give this a real go, I think I must have been glancing over inquiry incorrectly.

Oh please, self is not something that can be kicked out.
How do you kick a construct of the mind in the first place??

You have a point, more like vanished for view would be appropriate? Kick is just a descriptor after the fact, I guess it felt like it wasn't there.

Good to know. Who/what was the intro typed by then?

Is anyone reading from the screen right now?
Anyone scratching Wyatt’s head or picking Wyatt’s nose as the words are being read?
Anyone thinking, “I need a beer now” or anything else?

I guess the way that it was written I am assuming the self? But if the self is a construct I don't know.
Conceptually no one is reading the screen but experientially whatever "I" is is reading the screen.
I don't know if anyone is doing the thinking, more just that thoughts are there and they either interact with themselves and cause action or not? I guess this is a though about thinking, so I must believe that I am thinking.

What will happen if clarity is lost?

Life just keeps going on normally I supposed. After my experience described a few paragraphs up I don't think I really know what clarity is and I probably have just been experiencing some transient meditative states. It seems like "my spiritual identity" has been collecting descriptions of what awakening/etc. is and applying them to itself to make it believe it is doing well?

Very confused now, not in a good or bad way, just confused.

[Magdalena]

Hello Wyatt,


Thank you for all that you’ve shared.

Very confused now, not in a good or bad way, just confused.

I’d say confused is not a bad place to be, while not exactly comfortable. It’s a springboard to looking at things afresh, like seeing them for the first time. In amazement.


Let’s tackle the issue of experiences first.

About the one which happened years ago, you said:

I guess "this experience" as I think about it is just a thought right now.

Spot on.
While it may have been jaw-dropping when it happened, there is no going back to it. Now it is no more than a memory. Yes, memories are thoughts, or – more precisely – thought content.
Consider thoughts as empty vessels which arrive carrying all kinds of content. Doesn’t matter if it’s memories, ruminations about the past, or worries about the future. Here at LU, we call all of this “stories”. Stories are important in that they pull us into thinking loops out of which we are trying to become disentangled here. Does this make sense?


About your most recent experience:
Do try and not make too much of it really. This kind of experience is quite common, I suppose (brings a memory of something similar here). No point exploring it – maybe it’s just our subconscious trying out its symbolic imagery, who knows. Certainly interesting – enjoy it while it lasts, but don’t get caught up in stuff like this. It may appear like it’s relatable to what’s happening, but we’re after seeing what that sense of a separate self is made of.
Thing is experiences come and go, meditative or other states come and go, and so they are nothing to build on, so to speak. There’s nothing wrong with them, of course.

I don't know if anyone is doing the thinking, more just that thoughts are there and they either interact with themselves and cause action or not? I guess this is a though about thinking, so I must believe that I am thinking.

Good point. Can you look into how thinking happens all day today (disregard any thought content)? And report on what you find (please answer ALL the questions)?
Where do thoughts come from and where do they go?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says “these thoughts are in sequence” or “they take content from previous thought”, or that “one thought follows another thought”?
Can a thought do things?

the me is driving life forward and trying to control it. Sometimes life is just happening and other times it is covered with a train of thoughts.

Having looked at thoughts later today, can you give some examples of both – from today’s observation?
During various activities, in various situations?

there never is a me even when we think there is, those are just thoughts about thoughts? The mind identification creates a sense of self…

It seems like "my spiritual identity" has been collecting descriptions of what awakening/etc. is and applying them to itself to make it believe it is doing well?

Any more comments on these after a dayful of looking at thoughts?


Looking forward to hearing from you.

[wsb]

Magdalena,

Admittedly, this was a tougher assignment than I thought it would be, so this definitely put me in my place as far as being on a "spiritual path". I have much to unlearn.

On a positive note, it was surprisingly easy to not care/focus on the past experiences, however one follow up there:

maybe it’s just our subconscious trying out its symbolic imagery

Is referring to what actually happens, or the mind referring back to the experience and trying to describe it?


Now to the thinking portion:

Where do thoughts come from and where do they go?

When "I" am identifying with the thoughts I do not consider their origin, and I suppose I assume they lead to the next thought. However, when I "look into" the thoughts, it is clear that they come from no where and go to/disappear to no where.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Again here it is clear that I am doing nothing to make thoughts appear. I have no idea what makes thoughts come about, one could assume that they are dependent on stimuli but that is just a guess and an offshoot, but there is no I involved in that.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Definitely not. I could sometimes look at the thought which would immediately halt it until the next thought, but there was no control over what I was thinking.

Can you predict your next thought?

Hahaha no not at all. Even trying to think this is true falls apart immediately because that prediction would in fact be the next thought!

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Not in the slightest. Trying to do this has no effect on what thoughts arise.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No, I dont think the thoughts are a choice.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No, again I don't think choice is involved when it comes to thoughts.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

This one actually has a different answer. Sometimes there is a gap before the thought shows itself where I'm not quite sure what the thought is going to say, and when I see this perceived gap, the thought does not arise. The gap seems sort of like an unformed idea that is never spoken if that makes sense?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says “these thoughts are in sequence” or “they take content from previous thought”, or that “one thought follows another thought”?

There is definitely nothing "organized" about it. When I am identifying with the thoughts, it feels like there is a thought train or chain, but often the train would go between some thoughts that in no logical way could be connected. When I am not identifying with these thoughts, or get out of an identified thought train, its seems that there wasn't really much there, that there is just a loose idea of whatever the last thought was. Again when the identification with the thoughts is there, it seems like there is some sort of connected path, but not upon "analysis" after the fact. I should also note that I have no control over when I break free from the thought train.

Can a thought do things?

This is a good one. It seems like thoughts are the output of a computer where the inputs are all of your senses (including previous thoughts), and sometimes there is action "based on" this output thought information, and sometimes there is not. I do not believe 100% that I have control in this thought to action matter.

Having looked at thoughts later today, can you give some examples of both – from today’s observation?
During various activities, in various situations?

Yes this was actually a great day for examples.

An example of the me trying to drive life forward is when I am having a conversation with someone that I am not particularly interested in, and there is a sense of trying to control the situation so I don't have to be conversing with that person.

An example of life just happening is when I am having a conversation that I am interested in. Words seems to just come out and the me doesn't have to do any work because I am good where I am. Another example is when I am having a "flow state" in my work where the mind acts solely as a tool, and the work just sort of happens without excess mind input.

An example of life being covered in a train of thoughts is basically any other time in the day when I am not actively trying to look at my thoughts or be in a state of "presence", or I am tired. This just simply wears me out and I think is the main reason I started on a "spiritual path". There are physical signs too when a day is thought heavy as my head and jaw becomes tense in the later part of the day like it is now.

there never is a me even when we think there is, those are just thoughts about thoughts? The mind identification creates a sense of self…
It seems like "my spiritual identity" has been collecting descriptions of what awakening/etc. is and applying them to itself to make it believe it is doing well?

Any more comments on these after a dayful of looking at thoughts?

There seemed to be more mind identification today, partly because I was in a different work environment, and partly because I was probably more aware of what was going on throughout the day. In turn, I felt more of the burden of the sense of me and it is wearing me out. I know less know about what the me is other that something to do with mind identification, but I know the me is a persistence and adaptive little bugger even if he isn't real.

The spiritual identity is also definitely a thing, as there were moments through the day with an underlying sense of "I should ____ because I am spiritual", again this was never a speaking thought, more of just an underlying condition I noticed.

It kind of seems like the me (that which I would call "Wyatt") identifies with thoughts and is transient, and the "spiritual identity" watches thoughts without identifying them, but where before I felt that "spiritual identity" was grounded, it now seems impermanent as well.


A few other points that could be interesting:

It felt like some thoughts when I could see them were quiet and sneakier in the stage of the mind, and they were definitely the type of thoughts that were somewhat charged so that I would go back into mind identification. Hadn't really noticed this before today.

I feel I could get through the day fine without thoughts, and when there are none happening it still seems like there are unseen concepts behind like the pre-idea I mentioned earlier.


More confused, the word paradox comes to mind, but also more and more willing to keep going forward.

[Magdalena]

Hello Wyatt,


You’ve done some very good looking. 😉

maybe it’s just our subconscious trying out its symbolic imagery

Is referring to what actually happens, or the mind referring back to the experience and trying to describe it?

Don’t know. Either option seems to presuppose something that “actually happens”, something to “describe”. Sounds like a neat full-blown story either way. Why bother with this in the first place?

Thoughts … come from no where and go to/disappear to no where.

Yes.

I have no idea what makes thoughts come about, … but there is no I involved in that.

Yes.

there was no control over what I was thinking.

Yes.
Btw, were YOU thinking these thoughts, or was thinking simply going on?

that prediction would in fact be the next thought!

Yes.

I dont think the thoughts are a choice.

Yes.

Sometimes there is a gap before the thought shows itself where I'm not quite sure what the thought is going to say, and when I see this perceived gap, the thought does not arise.

Really?
Look again: Can you be absolutely certain that this thought never arises?
Considering you’re not sure what the thought is going to say (you can’t predict this, right?), how can you know that it never appears?
It may as well appear after the gap ends as the very next thought that arrives.

When I am identifying with the thoughts, it feels like there is a thought train or chain, but often the train would go between some thoughts that in no logical way could be connected.

Yes.

Just to get our terminology clear: when you say you’re identifying with thoughts, you’re saying you’re pulled into believing their content and following them down the rabbit hole (thought stories)? Or something else?

I should also note that I have no control over when I break free from the thought train.

… the type of thoughts that were somewhat charged so that I would go back into mind identification.

Sure, there is no control. Otherwise, you’d decide to only have pleasant thoughts from now on, and of course this is not how things are.

However, seeing that thought stories are instrumental in what makes up this sense of separate self we’re looking at, there is one thing that can be done.

One can learn to recognise thought stories as they arrive on the apparent thought train.
This goes a long way towards breaking that vicious circle (one thought apparently causing other thoughts, setting off emotional responses, which in turn leads to the next thought, and so on and so forth, ad bloody infinitum).

sometimes there is action "based on" this output thought information, and sometimes there is not. I do not believe 100% that I have control in this thought to action matter.

Yes.

when I am having a conversation with someone that I am not particularly interested in, and there is a sense of trying to control the situation so I don't have to be conversing with that person. …

The ”me” seems very much interested in attracting the experiences that it likes and moving away from those it dislikes, doesn’t it?
But, kind of beneath all this – beneath what the me likes and dislikes and what it claims to be doing to make itself satisfied – isn’t it that “life is just happening” in both cases?

Look: whenever some bodily sensations appear that thoughts label as “I like this” or “I don’t like this”, and then “I want more of this” or “less of that”, some sort of automatic response takes place? Like moving closer to or away from a person or situation, or more thoughts coming with ideas about what can be done to achieve the desired result, and so on and so forth?

Btw, what would some of these bodily sensations be? Can you identify them? For both types of situations?


Spoiler alert:

There are physical signs too when a day is thought heavy as my head and jaw becomes tense in the later part of the day like it is now.

Well said: “a day is thought heavy”.
If you were to come up with a mental/thought label for “my head and jaw becomes tense”, what would it be?

I am not actively trying to … be in a state of "presence", or I am tired.

Is it really possible to “actively trying to … be in a state of ‘presence’"? (some weird sort of pseudo-spiritual jargon)

Isn’t it something that’s naturally and always there?

We may not be noticing it at all times, sure. What may be the reason for that?
Does it really have anything to do with “actively trying”, or is it about something else?
Look and find out.

the me is a persistence and adaptive little bugger even if he isn't real.

Hahaha, yes. Spot on.

The spiritual identity is also definitely a thing, as there were moments through the day with an underlying sense of "I should ____ because I am spiritual"

This is interesting. Just to make things clear, here at LU we do nothing even remotely spiritual. Our conversation here is not going into the realms of spiritual or religious inquiry. Rather than inquire into concepts of spirit, soul, divinity, and the like, which originally spring from the human sense of separation, we look to strip any redundant concepts that are in the way of seeing things as clearly as they can be seen. To see through identifications so that whatever obstacles to seeing through the sense of separate self can be removed.

What does that “spiritual me” say to this: “There is absolutely nothing you should or should not do”?

where before I felt that "spiritual identity" was grounded, it now seems impermanent as well.

Good. Don’t credit it to that experience of two days ago though. 😉

I feel I could get through the day fine without thoughts

Sure.
Isn’t life a sort of automatic happening, just like thinking is? Please look into this and check for yourself. Tell me what you find. Look at walking, eating, driving, talking, etc. Are they happening because of thoughts, or regardless of them?

Also, our goal here is not to become thought-free (whether this is feasible is itself uncertain), but able to recognise thought stories when they come up and let them play in the background, like a car radio, rather than be pulled into them.

More confused, the word paradox comes to mind, but also more and more willing to keep going forward.

Perfect. 😊

[wsb]

Magdalena,

Definitely feel like more of my spiritual identity has faded this morning, I can see that no "work" I did on the path at any point is relevant to this moment. Somewhat nihilistic thoughts and feelings arise on occasion, but I do notice them and do not really identify with them.

Btw, were YOU thinking these thoughts, or was thinking simply going on?

When I was identified with the thoughts, there was no thought about what was happening, so I am not really sure if I thought I was thinking the thoughts, when I say that I guess that is what is inherent to identification. When I was not identified, it was clear that thinking was just happening.

Really?
Look again: Can you be absolutely certain that this thought never arises?
Considering you’re not sure what the thought is going to say (you can’t predict this, right?), how can you know that it never appears?
It may as well appear after the gap ends as the very next thought that arrives.

The gap is a lie :D
Focused on this and it is really one of two things, either some contracted feeling in the head thinking that will make thoughts stop, or hearing the first few letters of a thought and it stopping.

Just to get our terminology clear: when you say you’re identifying with thoughts, you’re saying you’re pulled into believing their content and following them down the rabbit hole (thought stories)? Or something else?

Exactly this. If there is a better term to use I would happily change because I am tired of typing out "identified" :D

One can learn to recognise thought stories as they arrive on the apparent thought train.
This goes a long way towards breaking that vicious circle (one thought apparently causing other thoughts, setting off emotional responses, which in turn leads to the next thought, and so on and so forth, ad bloody infinitum).

This sounds great, how does this learning occur? I have spent some time looking at thoughts before and it helps, but eventually ends up being a band-aid. Maybe I have not been looking properly.

The ”me” seems very much interested in attracting the experiences that it likes and moving away from those it dislikes, doesn’t it?
But, kind of beneath all this – beneath what the me likes and dislikes and what it claims to be doing to make itself satisfied – isn’t it that “life is just happening” in both cases?

Look: whenever some bodily sensations appear that thoughts label as “I like this” or “I don’t like this”, and then “I want more of this” or “less of that”, some sort of automatic response takes place? Like moving closer to or away from a person or situation, or more thoughts coming with ideas about what can be done to achieve the desired result, and so on and so forth?

Btw, what would some of these bodily sensations be? Can you identify them? For both types of situations?

I suppose that life is just happening, the problem is that it is beneath which is causing the stress.

It doesn't seem like it gets to the point where there are thoughts, "I like this", "I don't like this", but more of like an automatic response to try and leave or get out of the situation just happens. The me doesn't take too much ownership when there is a desirable situation, life usually just flows at these points. When there is a non-desirable situation the me sort of starts wiggling its way away from the situation.

Not really any significant bodily sensations for "I like this", but for "I don't like this" there is either sensations in the upper part of the torso, tension in the head and jaw, or if dealing directly with a person some sensations in the face that seem like they are trying to prevent some facial expressions?

If you were to come up with a mental/thought label for “my head and jaw becomes tense”, what would it be?

I would keep it simple and just say "stress" for this.

Is it really possible to “actively trying to … be in a state of ‘presence’"? (some weird sort of pseudo-spiritual jargon)

Isn’t it something that’s naturally and always there?

We may not be noticing it at all times, sure. What may be the reason for that?
Does it really have anything to do with “actively trying”, or is it about something else?
Look and find out.

I suppose it is something that is always there, but when identifying with the mind, this is not at all clear. I think if it was clear at these times, there would not be much mind identification to start with.

It definitely doesn't have anything to do with actively trying. It is just clearly there when there is no mind identification, and it happens spontaneously, and is sometimes is "triggered" by reading anything related to its existence.

What does that “spiritual me” say to this: “There is absolutely nothing you should or should not do”?

Reading this I immediately noticed those "I don't like" situation sensations in the upper torso and did not react. Then at some point there were thoughts of "well if there is nothing I should do, then why am I looking at thoughts or anything in the first place". This was the issue I kept running into with the Tony Parsons/Jim Newman message, where it would be, "Well life just is as it is so I don't have to do anything". This would just lead to more seeking in a few days after suffering returned.

Isn’t life a sort of automatic happening, just like thinking is? Please look into this and check for yourself. Tell me what you find. Look at walking, eating, driving, talking, etc. Are they happening because of thoughts, or regardless of them?

Also, our goal here is not to become thought-free (whether this is feasible is itself uncertain), but able to recognise thought stories when they come up and let them play in the background, like a car radio, rather than be pulled into them.

It is clear that anything my body is doing just sort of happens, regardless of what the mind is doing. When I am not identifying thoughts, everything is just happening together, but when I am it is like the body and the world is just being but separate from this story that is going on inside my head.

The term "story" seems to help, for example when I notice I am identifying with thoughts and then think "that just a story", it separates these mind identification thoughts from thoughts that are just happening, preventing the word "thought" from being inherently negative. Not sure if this is productive or not.

[Magdalena]

Hello again, Wyatt,

When I was not identified, it was clear that thinking was just happening.

And why would anything be different when you are identified? You really believe your identification or lack of it makes any difference to how thinking happens?

The gap is a lie :D

Don’t know if it’s a lie LOL but certainly not something to enable decision making re the coming of the next thought and its content.

I am tired of typing out "identified" :D

Shall we stick to “story” then? Short and sweet.

This sounds great, how does this learning occur?

By paying attention.

For instance, when someone cuts you off in traffic, you can get mad, honk at them, give them the finger, and then go on to mull over how some people should have their driving licences taken away, or how the police should monitor this part of the road more closely, or how you would never do this kind of thing, and how can they, what an immature a*hole, oh that’s a blonde driving – no surprise, and so on – blah blah blah.
Or once you’re out of this situation safely, you can just move on to the next thing, without getting on that train of thought.

It's not really a matter of choice, rather it’s about paying attention. Try it and see how it goes. Consider it a success even if the recognition of a story happens later – whether a couple of hours after, or the next day. Story recognised is what counts.

I’m not saying this is an easy thing – it’s kind of like reprogramming a lifelong habit of going down story rabbit holes.

On the plus side though, did you know that neuroscientists have found that it only takes 90 seconds for an emotion to run its course through our system (i.e. bodily sensations)? But this can only happen when it’s not fuelled with stories running wild.

I suppose that life is just happening, the problem is that it is beneath which is causing the stress.

Well, you may find this interesting.
The following link is a seven-minute clip of a soccer game. If you prefer another sport, find one to do this exercise with.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw
1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching "people" messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.
2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.
Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice. It seems to feel as though they can influence, somehow, what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome. The commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.
3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.
4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.
What did you find when doing this exercise?
Is the commentary on the soccer game a necessity for the play to happen?
And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?

It doesn't seem like it gets to the point where there are thoughts, "I like this", "I don't like this", but more of like an automatic response to try and leave or get out of the situation just happens.

Right, no verbal thoughts may happen. Rather thought labels are automatically (i.e. as a result of another lifelong habit) applied to bodily sensations. Like tension in the chest or the stomach is labelled “stress”. It could be labelled “excitement” or “anticipation” just as well.


So if you look into what at LU we call Direct Experience (DE for short), i.e. the sensations received through the five senses (seeing, hearing, touching, smelling and tasting), can you really find “stress”, “fear”, “excitement”, etc. there? Or is it just a matter of labelling, i.e. interpretation?

The me doesn't take too much ownership when there is a desirable situation, life usually just flows at these points.

Oh really? Like when you’ve achieved something professionally, and people are congratulating you, and your superiors are happy and offer you a bonus or something, doesn’t the me come up with something like “I did it”, “I made it happen”, “I’m getting the appreciation I deserve at last”, and the like?
Which is not to say life is not flowing in those moments, but rather to draw attention to the fact that life is flowing no matter what is happening in Wyatt’s life, whether the situation is to his liking or not. Which brings us back to that soccer exercise above.

Reading this I immediately noticed those "I don't like" situation sensations in the upper torso and did not react. Then at some point there were thoughts of "well if there is nothing I should do, then why am I looking at thoughts or anything in the first place".

This statement wasn’t meant along the lines of there’s nothing to do, but rather like there are no rules and ready-made recipes to be followed, and so it’s OK to just relax and go with the flow, to use a cliched expression.
How does that land?

This was the issue I kept running into with the Tony Parsons/Jim Newman message, where it would be, "Well life just is as it is so I don't have to do anything".

Are YOU the doer of things? Look again.

The term "story" seems to help, for example when I notice I am identifying with thoughts and then think "that just a story", it separates these mind identification thoughts from thoughts that are just happening, preventing the word "thought" from being inherently negative. Not sure if this is productive or not.

I don’t see this as separating two kinds of thoughts, but rather providing some space in which the validity of thought content can be explored and questioned. Like meeting a grumpy colleague can be responded to differently. You can follow a story of s/he doesn’t like me anymore, what have I done/said wrong, or what an unpleasant person s/he is, etc., blah blah blah. Or you can see this train of thought as a story, which allows it to be suspended until more data comes in, so to say, and you find it s/he is having a toothache and seeing their dentist after work and not looking forward to this, for example.

Not that all thoughts need to be labelled negative. Some can be useful, like “remember to buy milk on your way home” or something.

[wsb]

Magdalena,

Something shifted, or apparently shifted because there are just thoughts of this being different than it was earlier today and forever before. The word emptiness seems to come forward, but it is clear there is no me here.

I'm not quite sure what language to use to convey this as it is now because using I doesn't point to as much, but for simplicity's sake I think the pronoun is easier.

There were thoughts that I should respond, but they were just seen as seeking thoughts, so I just started responding when it came.

There has been an occasional identification with the story that lasts a few seconds but it is weak. There are thoughts that this may be a state and not last when my environment becomes more difficult, but these are just thoughts again so I don't feel a need to hold them in high regard.

So if you look into what at LU we call Direct Experience (DE for short), i.e. the sensations received through the five senses (seeing, hearing, touching, smelling and tasting), can you really find “stress”, “fear”, “excitement”, etc. there? Or is it just a matter of labelling, i.e. interpretation?

This makes sense now because there are more just felt sensations. The 90 seconds thing kind of makes sense as there isnt an ownership over the sense.

Just had the thought pop in "this writing is sort of pretentious" :D thoughts are funny.

This statement wasn’t meant along the lines of there’s nothing to do, but rather like there are no rules and ready-made recipes to be followed, and so it’s OK to just relax and go with the flow, to use a cliched expression.
How does that land?

This makes a lot more sense that when I read it before the perceived shift. I guess the question is to be done now?

On the FAQ there is a section called "Is this the end?", and there are plenty of thoughts about what this means.

Apologies, this appears a bit rambling and I didn't answer everything. I did try the soccer thing and there were sensations in the body with the commentary and not much without, but the learning seems inherent to experience now.

Thank you!

[Magdalena]

Hello Wyatt,

Lovely reading about your shift.

:D thoughts are funny.

Absolutely. LOL
And using “the pronoun” is fine once it’s clearly seen to be empty.


So tell me – how are you doing now?

What’s life like today?

Are YOU the doer of things?

Is the seeking still going on? (Please answeer all these questions)

On the FAQ there is a section called "Is this the end?", and there are plenty of thoughts about what this means.

Well, it is and it isn’t (I guess you’re no longer confused by apparent paradoxes, are you?)

It marks an end to what may be viewed as a certain “stage” (even though "stages" tend to be illusory themselves, just like the self and so much else). Once the illusion of the separate self is seen through, that’s it.

However, please be aware that there are tons of other beliefs that have been accumulated over a lifetime which still need to be deconstructed, and so many stories awaiting recognition (which is exactly why we’re looking at thoughts).

I guess the question is to be done now?

Well, can you say with a big fat yes that there is no separate self, and there never was?
If there is any doubt, or if you still have any questions, please share them here.

Thank you!

You’re very welcome. Thank YOU.

[wsb]

Magdalena,

I wrote a response to this but it was erased so I would like to summarize if that is ok.

Right now life is just happening. This morning I woke up and did not have to "orient spiritually" like normal, life just was and the thoughts were not mine.

Today was good, thought patterns are clearer. What may have been causing some belief in the separate self before was recognized as simply the thoughts at times being the main sense focused on, as sometimes visuals or sounds are. There were also thoughts discovered following the focus on these thoughts like "I was identifying just a second ago, good thing I'm back, I need to be more focused", but these were again recognized as just thoughts.

Are YOU the doer of things?

I truly have no idea what YOU is, but there is not a doer just things happening.

Is the seeking still going on?

There are seeking thoughts still but they are recognized as only thoughts. They want to know what to do now, what happens next, etc. but again just thoughts.

It marks an end to what may be viewed as a certain “stage” (even though "stages" tend to be illusory themselves, just like the self and so much else). Once the illusion of the separate self is seen through, that’s it.

However, please be aware that there are tons of other beliefs that have been accumulated over a lifetime which still need to be deconstructed, and so many stories awaiting recognition (which is exactly why we’re looking at thoughts).

There seems to be a curiosity here whether or not there is anything else to expect. There are still behaviors and habits that seem odd to appear as there is no me (ex. physical sensations prior to and during public speaking normally associated with fear) so definitely a curiosity if anything can/should be done there.

Well, can you say with a big fat yes that there is no separate self, and there never was?
If there is any doubt, or if you still have any questions, please share them here.

I think it would be beneficial to take some days to orient before saying a big fat yes, as I previously thought the me was gone, but something this time seems different.

If there are any markers that would help confirm that might be good to know, but the only questions really are about anything that might happen or should be done following the loss of belief in the separate self.