Freedom

[Equanimity99]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that the illusion of a self is a narrative of the existence of a particular individual. It is a story that grows and is learned but is a cognitive construct. The content of the story of a self comes and goes but 'being' always remains. Being is what's real and this present moment is what's real.

What are you looking for at LU?
I feel that I have an understanding of 'no self' and at times there is an experience of 'no self' but it is not a constant experience. I also understand that expectations keep you stuck but I guess what I am looking for is a little push and support through the gate.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would love to be guided with patience and perseverance into seeing and experiencing the freedom of going through the gateless gate until I am fully 'there'. I expect such a guided conversation would be with someone who has the personal experience of living with the freedom of 'no self'.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been on a spiritual path for many years - meditation, mindfulness, yoga etc. Reading Tolle, Adyashanti, studying the work of Nisargadatta Maharaj, Ramana Maharshi, Papagi etc. When I started studying the Three principles as set out by Sydney Banks (3PGC) and doing the effortless mindfulness work through Loch Kelly things really started to change for me. I found Rupert Spira's work very helpful and when I read the book of Jim Dreaver where he referred to LU I found Ilona's books and resources. I have been working with those resources and found it very helpful.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Bluejay]

Hi,

I'm Henri. What would you like me to call you?

Welcome to the forum. I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

If yes, then we can start...

If you haven't already, please read the disclaimer here: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

And then have a look at what Liberation Unleashed is not in the FAQ: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some guidelines (you may already be familiar with most of this, but just in case):

1. Post at least once every 24 to 48 hours. I'm not strict about this, but I would prefer it if you posted regularly. If you can't, please let me know.

2. Be 100% honest. There is no judgment here. No answer or question is silly or stupid. Your progress is key.

3. This process is based on direct experience, which means sensation, smell, taste, sight, sound, observed thoughts, and so on. There is no need to rely too much on the mind for answers, so long philosophical and analytical answers are best avoided.

4. Pause any other teachings, rituals, books, and practices you are currently involved in. It is best to put all your effort into this inquiry for as long as it lasts. A meditation practice is fine, but anything else can be a distraction.

5. Technology can be problematic. I recommend you type your answers in a text editor like MS Word or Google Docs, and then copy and paste them into this thread. This way you avoid losing your answer if there's a technical glitch.

6. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to answer each question individually. Here are instructions on how to use the quote function if it is not already clear: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And to start, I'd like to know your expectations. You don't have to use direct experience for this. Just share what comes to mind:

1. How will life change when you realize there is no "I"?
2. How will you change?
3. What will be different?
4. What is missing?

Enjoy! :)

[Equanimity99]

I'm Henri. What would you like me to call you?

Hi Henri, I'm Petro

Welcome to the forum. I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

Thank you, I would like that. Apologies, I haven't noticed your post before now. I am still getting my head around how to use the forum but happy to give it a go.

1. How will life change when you realize there is no "I"?

There will be more freedom and acceptance from moment to moment, nothing to and no one to take anything personally or resist, all will just be one flow of life.

2. How will you change?

Own constructed narratives around have to’s, ought to’s and shoulds will drop off, the experience of life will be lighter. There will be more experience of oneness with others and less judgement. Fear will drop away and curiosity and interest in the present moment, as it is, will increase.

3. What will be different?

All will just be as it is from moment to moment.

4. What is missing?

Although I already have some awareness and experience of the above it is not stable and I have to refocus/remember to go back to freedom/being/no self. What is missing is perhaps depth and stability.

[Bluejay]

Thank you, I would like that. Apologies, I haven't noticed your post before now. I am still getting my head around how to use the forum but happy to give it a go.

If you haven't already, you can subscribe to this thread so you receive notifications via email.

There will be more freedom and acceptance from moment to moment, nothing to and no one to take anything personally or resist, all will just be one flow of life.

Even after, there will be plenty of resistance and things will be taken seemingly personally. Seeing that there is no inherent self is the beginning of the path (stream entry in Buddhism). It is one filter removed, which allows any resistance/emotional stuff to begin to bubble up to the surface. This means that the ride can get bumpy.

Now, there is sometimes a honeymoon period. For some it can last years, which often seems to be what they are reporting from. When this honeymoon period ends, it can be a rude awakening, because suddenly you are throwing anger fits, feel depressed and so on. This is because the next aspect of selfing is coming up (i.e. reactivity).

So while there is no one to take things personally, you may probably act as if things are taken personally.

Own constructed narratives around have to’s, ought to’s and shoulds will drop off, the experience of life will be lighter. There will be more experience of oneness with others and less judgement. Fear will drop away and curiosity and interest in the present moment, as it is, will increase.

This whole thing is not a freedom from something, but freedom WITH everything. Narratives may still run, but not to a separate self. Judgment is also likely to remain to some extent.

Oneness really depends on how you define it. If you want to feel at one with everything, that is the subject/object duality and usually is explored into at a later stage.

Fear is unlikely to drop away. Some fear may drop away, but not all.

Although I already have some awareness and experience of the above it is not stable and I have to refocus/remember to go back to freedom/being/no self. What is missing is perhaps depth and stability.

I write all of this to hopefully help you see that in some cases nothing changes. If you expect something to change, or life to become better, then we may be looking for a unicorn that doesn't exist. And if it doesn't exist, it can never be found.

So when you say depth and stability, this sounds like you are looking for a better experience, which is absolutely natural and normal. You could also be referring to the process of flip-flopping, which is when you see that there is no self, and then you forget, and then you see, and so on.

In a sense, nothing has to change. The separate self is a habit. That's it.

Let me know what resonates or annoys above :)

[Equanimity99]

Hi Henri, many thanks for your time and for helping!

“This whole thing is not a freedom from something, but freedom WITH everything. Narratives may still run, but not to a separate self. Judgment is also likely to remain to some extent.

I love the ‘freedom with’ all. Are you saying only observation or awareness of narratives, judgments and fear remain?

“Even after, there will be plenty of resistance and things will be taken seemingly personally. Seeing that there is no inherent self is the beginning of the path (stream entry in Buddhism). It is one filter removed, which allows any resistance/emotional stuff to begin to bubble up to the surface. This means that the ride can get bumpy.”

I believe there can be a difficult time after the falling away of this filter and so freedom ‘with this’ or flowing with what is, is my hope.

I write all of this to hopefully help you see that in some cases nothing changes. If you expect something to change, or life to become better, then we may be looking for a unicorn that doesn't exist. And if it doesn't exist, it can never be found.

So when you say depth and stability, this sounds like you are looking for a better experience, which is absolutely natural and normal. You could also be referring to the process of flip-flopping, which is when you see that there is no self, and then you forget, and then you see, and so on.

In a sense, nothing has to change. The separate self is a habit. That's it.

Although I know that expectations get you stuck I guess there are still some inklings or hopes towards 'freedom with'. I also relate to the flip-flopping as I feel that I get glimpses of emptiness and then forget or get 'distracted'.
How do I break the habit and maintain that?

[Bluejay]

Are you saying only observation or awareness of narratives, judgments and fear remain?

No :)

Although I know that expectations get you stuck I guess there are still some inklings or hopes towards 'freedom with'. I also relate to the flip-flopping as I feel that I get glimpses of emptiness and then forget or get 'distracted'.

It's great that you're honest. Honesty is crucial for this inquiry.

How do I break the habit and maintain that?

You cannot. I'm being deliberately vague with my answers because more information is just going to be picked up by the mind and set as a goal or desire. I just want to quell your current expectations, because they will get in the way.

That's also why we're spending this time on them now.

Next, watch this video by Ilona and Luchana (guides here at LU): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93fpiOnKM4M

Pause the video to reflect on anything that resonates, or where there is resistance.

Then come back here and share what happened :)

[Equanimity99]

Next, watch this video by Ilona and Luchana (guides here at LU): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93fpiOnKM4M
Pause the video to reflect on anything that resonates, or where there is resistance.
Then come back here and share what happened :)

Hi Henri, thank you for your response. I am still listening to the video and I will come back to you once I am done with the video. I love where they talk about 'do I need to do anything or hold on to anything to make being happen'. As they say this I can just see how silly that we can think that we can make 'being' happen.
Thank you for sharing this video.

[Bluejay]

Glad you're enjoying it :)

[Equanimity99]

Hi Henri, I was going through the video a couple of times and just reflected on it. I think I see now what you are referring to re expectations. I get that expectations are another mental or thought construct but that we are rather interested in experience in the moment.

I also resonate with dropping hope - hope is not the present moment. It is not accepting that whatever is, is. It is future-focused and controlling (things need to be a certain way). Flowing with life is not about hope. Being in the moment, as it is, with openness is peace. 'Not knowing' is ok, anything can happen. Expectations are also about control but there is no control and no self to control anything. I like that old saying that we are the dance and life is the dancer.

Thoughts comment on where the attention goes and emotion follows that and this is the working of the 'machine of the mind-body' and that's ok. I see that 'we' don't change 'our' thoughts. Thoughts come and go and may change by themselves. What is of interest is the space before/underneath/beyond thought and narrative.

Seeing what is here, before the story, but really looking at what is here now seems empty and spacious.

I also like that there is nothing to find, to achieve, and to become, as it all has always already been here. In looking there is letting go.
Thank you for your pointing.

[Bluejay]

Thank you for your answer! :-)

Let's do this:

Socks Exercise

There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience).

For example: If I ask you what color your socks are, you can answer in two ways:

1. You can think of the answer and try to remember

2. You can take a look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in this very moment.

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

[Equanimity99]

Hi Henri, yes, thank you, I am clear on that.

[Bluejay]

All right, Petro :)

Let's start with this one.

Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply = image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Also as a bonus you can pay attention to how often thoughts try to label or narrate experience.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order on each line. Exactly.

[Equanimity99]

Thank you Henri, I will work on this and be in touch once I have a list ready.

[Bluejay]

Thank you Henri, I will work on this and be in touch once I have a list ready.

OK. Let me know if any questions pop up :)

[Equanimity99]

Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply = image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Also as a bonus you can pay attention to how often thoughts try to label or narrate experience.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order on each line. Exactly.

Hi Henri, here goes:

Dinner
Seeing food, simply = image/colours/shapes
Smelling food, simply = smell
Tasting food, simply = taste
Hearing cutlery on plate, simply = sound
Hearing music, simply = sound
Thoughts about meal, simply = thought
Feeling food texture in mouth, simply = sensation

Working in garden
Seeing plants, simply = image
Smelling soil, simply = smell
Hearing sounds in neighbourhood, simply sound
Hearing birds, simply = sound
Thoughts about garden tasks, simply = thought
Feeling soil on hands, simply = sensation
Spray of cold water, simply = sensation

Watching a movie
Seeing screen and movie, simply = image
Hearing sounds, simply = sound
Thoughts about story, simply = thought
Feeling blanket, simply = sensation

Work
Seeing screen, simply = image
Hearing talking, simply = sound
Thinking about conversation, simply = thoughts

Drinking tea
Seeing the cup, simply = image
Smelling the tea, simply = smell
Feeling the cup in hands, simply = sensation
Tasting the tea, simply = taste
Hearing sound of putting cup down, simply = sound
Thought about tea, simply = thought

Paging magazine in sun
Seeing pages, simply = image and colour
Smell of paper, simply = smell
Feeling the pages, simply = sensation
Sound of pages turning, simply = sound
Thoughts about images, simply = thought

Conversation with partner
Seeing person, simply = image
Sound of talking, simply = sound
Thoughts about conversation, simply = thought
Physical response to conversation, simply = sensation

Walking
Seeing scenery, simply = images
Smelling air, simply = smell
Feeling body move, simply = sensation
Sound of waves and wind, simply = sound
Thoughts come and go simply = thought

It is noticeable how the mind makes a story and goes into commentary and labelling. Mind is quite the labelling machine for example names of birds, plants, food etc. Also, a narrator - jumping back into memories and forward into planning. It was good to stay with direct experience and observe this as 'thought'.

Thanks
Petro