The beginning of the end :)

[luckystarz]

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking to step out of the mind, the constant chatter and the false ego desires and 'goals'. Ive come to the end of the line in terms of having faith that the 'outside world' can fix the desires, or quench a thirst which is unquenchable in the outside world. I am looking for practical steps and actions which I can take to help prove and solidify this in the being. I am looking to step into the oneness. I am wanting to drop all ego programming, and serve my brothers and sisters with gods will. I am committed to stepping into the fullness and realness and the truth of who I/We are. I am seeking inner peace, wholeness, oneness and a bliss, which I can in turn help others to experience and let go of equally into that place and awareness.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I am looking for a guide who I can converse with about the questions I have about free will but more importantly I am wanting practical actions to be set for me to step out of the mind, and really deepen the faith into what I seem to be realising is really going on in this realm. I really want practical application, with some conversation too. But for me the proof and experience will come with practical application to step out of the mind, and to challenge what I believe is and isn't possible. I would like the guide to have me 'put to the test' examples where I can begin to see miracles and have my faith truly and profoundly deepened. I want to be able to rediscover life a new, and would love as much guidance and support as possible, to have a deep and meaningful exchange.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have done many plant medicines over a lot of years (grandmother, grandfather, bufo, kambo, MDMA, lsd, mushrooms etc) I have many years of meditation practice, and been a coach for others since the beginning of this year into stepping out of the mind, and also supporting in health and fitness (this part is falling away in terms of the physical body element). I have been studying and been coached with the course of miracles in the last month which has dramatically sped up my development and insights into how I am seeing this reality. I was always rather sick as a child, so have spent most of my life on the journey to uncover the truth, and to find ease, bliss and clarity. I have always sought after the truth. In the last ten years I have really stepped up my level of enquiry, until just recently I have decided to wholly focus of this process, and let my career and most relationships and old patterns go.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[JonathanR]

Hello Luckystarz

Ive just read your intro and am writing to offer to guide.

. I am looking to step out of the mind, the constant chatter and the false ego desires and 'goals

That sounds purposeful and definite..

. I am looking to step into the oneness. I am wanting to drop all ego programming, and serve my brothers and sisters with gods will. I am committed to stepping into the fullness and realness and the truth of who I/We are. I am seeking inner peace, wholeness, oneness and a bliss, which I can in turn help others to experience and let go of equally into that place and awareness.

We will do our best then. I don't want to annoy you but do you think that there might be one or two assumptions or expectations about what should happen here?

We would have a friendly type of conversation, the main focus of which would be for you to make the realisation, beyond doubt, that there is no fixed or separate self. I would point to no self via various questions. Each question would be an invitation look into your own experience.

. I want to be able to rediscover life a new, and would love as much guidance and support as possible, to have a deep and meaningful exchange.

I may be able to help with this.

. I have done many plant medicines over a lot of years (grandmother, grandfather, bufo, kambo, MDMA, lsd, mushrooms etc) I

Interesting. Did you find these worthwhile?

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Oh, by the way , what name would you like me to use for you? I'm Jon.

Regards

Jon

[luckystarz]

Hello Luckystarz

Ive just read your intro and am writing to offer to guide.

. I am looking to step out of the mind, the constant chatter and the false ego desires and 'goals

That sounds purposeful and definite..

---Great!

. I am looking to step into the oneness. I am wanting to drop all ego programming, and serve my brothers and sisters with gods will. I am committed to stepping into the fullness and realness and the truth of who I/We are. I am seeking inner peace, wholeness, oneness and a bliss, which I can in turn help others to experience and let go of equally into that place and awareness.

We will do our best then. I don't want to annoy you but do you think that there might be one or two assumptions or expectations about what should happen here?

---No annoyance here from your comment, but yes there was defiantly expectation coming in here, which I understand is not the purpose of this.

We would have a friendly type of conversation, the main focus of which would be for you to make the realisation, beyond doubt, that there is no fixed or separate self. I would point to no self via various questions. Each question would be an invitation look into your own experience.

---Sounds great!

. I want to be able to rediscover life a new, and would love as much guidance and support as possible, to have a deep and meaningful exchange.

I may be able to help with this.

---Great!

. I have done many plant medicines over a lot of years (grandmother, grandfather, bufo, kambo, MDMA, lsd, mushrooms etc) I

Interesting. Did you find these worthwhile?

---Yes very much so, very deeply transformational, healing and incredible experiences.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Oh, by the way , what name would you like me to use for you? I'm Jon.

---Please use my name, which is TOM :)

Thanks also for your email, I'd be happy to accept you as my guide thank you :)

Best wishes
Tom

[JonathanR]

Hi Tom

Nice to meet you.

Thanks for using the "quote" function. If it would help there is a post about how to use it, near the top of the list of posts on the main first page of LU Gate.

. No annoyance here from your comment, but yes there was defiantly expectation coming in here, which I understand is not the purpose of this.

Well, this inquiry is definitely worth doing. It's very common to arrive with some expectations. Almost inevitable. If possible these must be left at the door. But they can sometimes hang around and resurface.

It cannot be predicted how no self will be experienced. The best thing, if possible, is to let go of expectations. It's like leaving a blank canvas.

It's very helpful to look at any and all expectations, ideas about "what should change" or "how it should be experienced". Spend some time on this and list any expectations, however small or insignificant they may seem.

. Did you find these worthwhile?

---Yes very much so, very deeply transformational, healing and incredible experiences.

I can relate to this too. , Did you notice that the feeling, thought or notion of "myself" is often quite challenged and often , somehow, moved beyond as these experiences unfold?

Best wishes

Jon

[luckystarz]

Hey

Ok I've sorted the quote situation.

It cannot be predicted how no self will be experienced. The best thing, if possible, is to let go of expectations. It's like leaving a blank canvas.

I will aim to do this, I'm excited to begin, and will drop expectations but I continue below...

It's very helpful to look at any and all expectations, ideas about "what should change" or "how it should be experienced". Spend some time on this and list any expectations, however small or insignificant they may seem.

Expectations or ideas about "what should change" or "how it should be experienced", or "expectations" are detailed here (I have just allowed this idea to roll around in my head and allowed these things to come up, small or large, but just some thoughts:
- I could end up having some mystical experiences, 'a vision' or 'a voice' saying -this is it- YOUR FREE.
- That I will live in peace and not be bothered by the annoyances / triggers of life again.
- The idea that I could somehow be untouched by the triggers in life
- That I will be free of the judgement of my body forever after
- That I will 'become' some kind of 'zen' character or master

Did you notice that the feeling, thought or notion of "myself" is often quite challenged and often , somehow, moved beyond as these experiences unfold?

Yes very much so. I actually found that the most painful part could be 'coming back' to the voice / the criticism. After the strength of the medicine would wear off, or even during it, the most painful parts of the experience was when the mind was trying to find / root though 'story' or 'meaning' or perceived 'trauma'. I would say that after nearly all my experiences there was dramatic change in my perception, but yes the 'high' or the 'new seeing' would begin to subside in the coming hours, days, weeks or sometimes months after these experiences, apparently landing back to a 'default' self, however on reflection realising that this seeming 'self' has certainly had many many many 'upgrades' or 'significant shifts' to the point where that 'old self' is forgotten. The -consistency- interestingly being that the 'mind' never seems to 'believe' the upgrade when life gets challenging, and can come with the narrative of 'nothing has changed'. But if I compare my place now of where I am, in comparison to become many of these incredible experiences, ive died and been reborn many many times. It's crazy though how powerful the mind can try to be to overrule such expansive experiences.

Best wishes
T

[JonathanR]

Hi Tom

. I have just allowed this idea to roll around in my head and allowed these things to come up, small or large, but just some thoughts:

That's a good approach.

. I could end up having some mystical experiences, 'a vision' or 'a voice' saying -this is it- YOUR FREE.
- That I will live in peace and not be bothered by the annoyances / triggers of life again.
- The idea that I could somehow be untouched by the triggers in life
- That I will be free of the judgement of my body forever after
- That I will 'become' some kind of 'zen' character or master

It's most important to drop expectations otherwise these tend to remain as obstructions that can eclipse a fully open view. When it's seen that there's no self it can be almost as if nothing has happened, (I say "almost"). The more that you are able to grok that ANY expectation places a condition on what is unconditioned the more it will help.

Tell me frankly if this is unwelcome or difficult news to absorb?. Don't worry at all if it is because we can work at it.

Here is a link to an excellent video made very recently by Ilona Cunaite (co-founder of LU) and another guide Luchana , all about expectations. It may be helpful;

https://youtu.be/93fpiOnKM4M

. I actually found that the most painful part could be 'coming back' to the voice / the criticism. After the strength of the medicine would wear off, or even during it, the most painful parts of the experience was when the mind was trying to find / root though 'story' or 'meaning' or perceived 'trauma'. I would say that after nearly all my experiences there was dramatic change in my perception, but yes the 'high' or the 'new seeing' would begin to subside in the coming hours, days weeks or sometimes months after these experiences, apparently landing back to a 'default' self, however on reflection realising that this seeming 'self' has certainly had many many many 'upgrades' or 'significant shifts' to the point where that 'old self' is forgotten. The -consistency- interestingly being that the 'mind' never seems to 'believe' the upgrade when life gets challenging, and can come with the narrative of 'nothing has changed'. But if I compare my place now of where I am, in comparison to become many of these incredible experiences, ive died and been reborn many many times. It's crazy though how powerful the mind can try to be to overrule such expansive experiences.

This is so interesting. Yes "mind" can be a busy little bee, can't it? We will look at that...

Is it possible to create thoughts? Try creating a thought right now.

Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing? Try preventing thoughts.


Let me know how it goes?

All best

Jon

[luckystarz]

Hi Jon

Thanks for sending the video, which clarifies the expectations.

Tell me frankly if this is unwelcome or difficult news to absorb?. Don't worry at all if it is because we can work at it.

It is not unwelcome at all, but I wanted to post the expectations list below from the homepage of any expectations which are more challenging to absorb.

This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
- This has some residing resonance which I would like to clear up, like any belief in the 'specialness' of who I might become
This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
- How will one define then if this process has 'worked'?
This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
- I agree its not about eternal happiness or peace, however there is some expectation that this is where things 'should' be heading, based on other 'speakers' or 'coaches' or 'teachers'. It would be great to get some more (or less) understanding here about loosing the sense of how it is 'supposed' to be.
This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
-Is it more to be able to ride them out in observation, rather than attachment?
This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
-This has defiantly been a theme which has come up before, lesser so now, but still a bit apparent, that there is some parts/ego to 'get rid of'

I thought I'd share above where there are any 'piece' of expectation which come up from that list so you are in awareness of this.

Is it possible to create thoughts? Try creating a thought right now.

Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing? Try preventing thoughts.


Let me know how it goes?

Having played with this a little bit, it's beginning to land that, thought is arriving, but it is not being created. However, I have also experienced and seen that thought 'quality' can be altered by asking different questions. I have found this helped a great deal earlier on in my path, ie to ask different questions like: What if this meeting goes terribly, switching that up, and then asking, what if this was the best meeting I've ever had? Or I choose to feel love during this meeting regardless of what happens. I've found that this process was immensely helpful in switching up thought 'quality' so instead of damning, horrible, sad, unworthy thoughts, they switch into encouraging, empowering, kind, supportive thoughts. I know that's not what we are here to do, but I felt somehow it was important to share that. But going into the realm where thought is simply 'occurring' and cannot be created, made me question the above earlier process a lot, but would like to hear your thoughts on this.

Trying to prevent thoughts, that's a fun experiment, having played with this over some years on occasions when I remember, and when after your note, its incredible how maybe one can do maybe one breath in and out, at a push two, without thinking about anything, but even then the thought becomes 'I shouldn't be thinking about anything' lol. So no it's not really possible to stop thoughts appearing. But we can choose whether or not to interact with them. Until perhaps they become like a huge waterfall of thoughts, and then occasionally, it's very difficult to get out of that! Its becoming easier, but occasionally I can be taken down but a cluster-fuck of thoughts ;)

Thanks Jon,
Best,
T

[JonathanR]

Hey Tom

. It is not unwelcome at all, but I wanted to post the expectations list below from the homepage of any expectations which are more challenging to absorb

A great idea.

. This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
- This has some residing resonance which I would like to clear up, like any belief in the 'specialness' of who I might become
This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
- How will one define then if this process has 'worked'?
This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
- I agree its not about eternal happiness or peace, however there is some expectation that this is where things 'should' be heading, based on other 'speakers' or 'coaches' or 'teachers'. It would be great to get some more (or less) understanding here about loosing the sense of how it is 'supposed' to be.
This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
-Is it more to be able to ride them out in observation, rather than attachment?
This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
-This has defiantly been a theme which has come up before, lesser so now, but still a bit apparent, that there is some parts/ego to 'get rid of

Very good to have you identify and spell out the particular sticking points and we must look at each one. It might take a few exchanges to do this, rather than try to do it all at one go.

Let's look at the first one though...

. This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
- This has some residing resonance which I would like to clear up, like any belief in the 'specialness' of who I might become

Say more about this please? It will help to get some more detail about what may be imagined or what may have been learned or believed about this "specialness"? Good to get all the cards out on the table so write as much as you like.



Thanks for looking at creating or preventing thoughts. It can be fun trying these.

Just one extra and interesting question on preventing thoughts...

Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing, including the thought "I"?

:-)

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hey Tom

How is it going?

Will I hear back from you?

Jon

[luckystarz]

Hey Jon

Apologies for the delay in getting back to you. Have had a very challenging week.

Big triggers coming up around 'mistrust' in others, in teachers.

Say more about this please? It will help to get some more detail about what may be imagined or what may have been learned or believed about this "specialness"? Good to get all the cards out on the table so write as much as you like.

Yep so - specialness being something which makes you someone to reach too when they are going through hard times. The interest being someone to 'reach out to' as inspiration, or to 'assist', or to help 'save' another, or someone to dare I say 'worship' at its extremity.

Having come from a film background, being in front of the camera, its a 'world' in which there is a lot of that kind of illusionary imaginings - being a person of 'influence', or on a huge billboard etc. And wanting to let all the 'meaning' of that go. The specialness also appearing in how the body looks, how the appearance is. Having got certainly some recognition through my work, and the 'being recognised' thing becomes something - not important - but something the ego likes. And then to let that drop away is something which could have become addictive, but also could have been utterly awful to, and never having anonymity.

Coming to terms with not being 'special' at something - some skill - some accomplishment before felt awful, that importance is subsiding, but is still there. Still the desire for 'recognition' for 'doing something monumental'. It feels almost destructive to go to the opposite end of that. To make no impact on the world... to be a no body.

Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing, including the thought "I"?

I'm not sure it's possible to stop thoughts appearing, but the "I" seems to come in when we identify with the thought. Sometimes this is very challenging to fuse the two apart. I've been experiencing / watching - like thoughts happen, more thoughts happen, and it doesn't pull you in, and then one thought happens which 'clicks' and then you are lost in the illusionary world again.


Thanks so much Jon!
T :)

[JonathanR]

Hi Tom

. Apologies for the delay in getting back to you. Have had a very challenging week.

That's ok. It does tend to help a lot if we stay in touch quite regularly but sometimes things do get challenging, I know.

. Big triggers coming up around 'mistrust' in others, in teachers.

Oh. Interesting. You do not go on to say much about this?

About teachers, I have no intention of trying to 'teach' you anything (just to let you know). I can offer pointers to no self,, questions, challenge assumptions but I'm not here to replace existing beliefs with other, new beliefs. It's vital that your inquiry here is YOURS. So I will tend to offer questions but not teachings. Then it's entirely up to you to look at those and at your own actual experience.

. Yep so - specialness being something which makes you someone to reach too when they are going through hard times. The interest being someone to 'reach out to' as inspiration, or to 'assist', or to help 'save' another, or someone to dare I say 'worship' at its extremity.

Alright, this is seen as expectation but you seem to be aware of the potential nonsense of holding rigidly to a self-identity? I mean, there's something beautiful about wanting to genuinely help or inspire others and no reason why that should not be possible but any fixed notion of "how it must be" is like dictating "my conditions for liberation". Does this make sense?

. Coming to terms with not being 'special' at something - some skill - some accomplishment before felt awful, that importance is subsiding, but is still there. Still the desire for 'recognition' for 'doing something monumental'. It feels almost destructive to go to the opposite end of that. To make no impact on the world... to be a no body

I understand what you are saying here. But we are not going to any opposites and "no impact on the world" is not part of my narrative. Yes, there can be some falling away of outmoded beliefs about "me". But this idea about being a no body is a distorted charicature of what no self really is. It seems to be a commonly held idea ABOUT no self, that it is somehow means "I am nothing". but that forgets "I am everything"..

. I'm not sure it's possible to stop thoughts appearing, but the "I" seems to come in when we identify with the thought. Sometimes this is very challenging to fuse the two apart. I've been experiencing / watching - like thoughts happen, more thoughts happen, and it doesn't pull you in, and then one thought happens which 'clicks' and then you are lost in the illusionary world again.

This is very interesting. Yes, I know exactly what you mean.

So, given what you have said , is it possible to prevent that one thought that crosses over into the illusory, the dream of "self"?

Who, or what, would prevent that thought from happening?

But now, it is noticed that at some later point , somehow, "waking up" happens again?
Somehow clarity is restored... Until the next ride round the illusion.

The question is , who, or what made that waking up happen? Does it happen by itself?


All the best

Jon

[luckystarz]

Hi Jon

I will be keeping on top of replies :)

Oh. Interesting. You do not go on to say much about this?

About teachers, I have no intention of trying to 'teach' you anything (just to let you know). I can offer pointers to no self,, questions, challenge assumptions but I'm not here to replace existing beliefs with other, new beliefs. It's vital that your inquiry here is YOURS. So I will tend to offer questions but not teachings. Then it's entirely up to you to look at those and at your own actual experience.

To be more specific, I have had challenges this week about perception of teachers. By the way I wasn't referring to you in this. But those teachers who are helping me at the moment with a course. And the mind created distrust - or we could say the ego mind had created distrust, and starts looking for and accumulating more and more evidence that teachers can be 'dangerous' by pointing out where the ego mind is, and it can be perceived as a very strong personal attack. Speaking some days on now it is much easier to be able to describe this above which was going on. So overall it was an awareness of a 'distrust' which can appear when going on a journey of deep self enquiry, as that which wants to be called the 'identity' really wants to hang on and see it 'its' way. And will even warp our perceptions of others, or teachers in this incident, so as to remain hidden from the real truth.

Alright, this is seen as expectation but you seem to be aware of the potential nonsense of holding rigidly to a self-identity? I mean, there's something beautiful about wanting to genuinely help or inspire others and no reason why that should not be possible but any fixed notion of "how it must be" is like dictating "my conditions for liberation". Does this make sense?

Yes this absolutely makes sense in terms of the 'conditions', like this is the way it must be done - but do you mean that that process of helping others will always continue to merge and change and flow in how help for others arrives or is delivered?

Thank you for exposing the genuine help which I feel very strongly is there, a big desire to help others learn and grow. Its nice to know that is still permitted ;)

I understand what you are saying here. But we are not going to any opposites and "no impact on the world" is not part of my narrative. Yes, there can be some falling away of outmoded beliefs about "me". But this idea about being a no body is a distorted charicature of what no self really is. It seems to be a commonly held idea ABOUT no self, that it is somehow means "I am nothing". but that forgets "I am everything"..

Thanks for clarifying about not going to opposites. I see that the mind can be like well if I can't be 'me' then 'I'm just going to be a nobody and have no impact and might as well be invisible' ha. So that the flip side of the mind there which you helped expose. The incredible landing of this information! 'I am everything', from being no self. Wow.

So, given what you have said , is it possible to prevent that one thought that crosses over into the illusory, the dream of "self"?

I don't believe we can prevent the thought from appearing, but I do believe we have the choice in whether to engage with that thought on not, whether we choose to 'bring it to life', and enact and believe that thought. Which suddenly affects our whole reality then.

Who, or what, would prevent that thought from happening?

The witnesser, the 'eyes beyond our eyes' I might call it, can choose whether to interact with the thought or not.
Ive begun playing with this a lot lately, putting the awareness in awareness - not in the 'avatar', or the 'engaged thinking mind' but its like taking several steps back from that any watching thoughts, and then there is at some point a 'consent' given into being reactivated into the illusionary world. But I'm not sure we can actually prevent thought from occurring fully. Like it can't just be 'switched off' can it? Only the interaction can be chosen or not, no?

But now, it is noticed that at some later point , somehow, "waking up" happens again?
Somehow clarity is restored... Until the next ride round the illusion.

The question is , who, or what made that waking up happen? Does it happen by itself?

Who made that waking up happen... that awareness that I describe above? That 'constant', that 'wider' awareness which I spoke about. That which is witnessing the entire 'show' of the life. It's like the 'watcher of the tv show' we call our life. And then when the pain gets too bad, or something happens, or we CHOOSE to REMEMBER the dream, we can pull out again. Could we say it happens when the suffering has gotten so bad (in a life wise perspective) that deeper questions are asked like this cannot be it, this cannot be the truth or the reality. But on a smaller scale, like we are lost in a trail of thoughts, we are making the illusion very real and then suddenly we remember... I'm trying to get to what 'pulls us out again', and I'd say it is that memory of awareness, that this is not who we are. Could I call it a deep remembering. But what happens to make us break the engagement? I can only describe it as remembering the truth of who we are! That's as far as ive got attempting to figure that out. Does it happen by itself? No, I'd say that's where we have our only choice.

Best wishes
T

[JonathanR]

Hi Tom

. But those teachers who are helping me at the moment with a course. And the mind created distrust - or we could say the ego mind had created distrust, and starts looking for and accumulating more and more evidence that teachers can be 'dangerous' by pointing out where the ego mind is, and it can be perceived as a very strong personal attack.

Sometimes, not always, I start by saying "please put other spiritual or self-inquiry teachers and teachings, gurus , videos or books aside completely during your inquiry here".

Why might I say this?

Because where someone is engaging with various teachers or teachings it is very common to see the mind being pulled in different directions, by apparently contradictory advice or concepts. The appearance of various options really doesn't help. I have never much liked insisting on this , preferring people to feel free. But this can absolutely be a big issue and in recent months I've spoken with several people who, despite promising to place other teachers to one side have gradually clammed up and gone quiet and then disappeared without word, clearly because of "conversations with "teachers".

I am not a teacher. I do not know you better than yourself. Am I am not teaching anything. But I can point,sometimes very helpfully and precisely , to no self.

Are you continuing to work with any spiritual or shamanic teachers right now?

. do you mean that that process of helping others will always continue to merge and change and flow in how help for others arrives or is delivered

That's nice way of phrasing. Flow is a big part of it. Once it is seen that there never was "self" it can be seen that everything was already flowing (with just an illusion of "me, making everything happen").

. Thank you for exposing the genuine help which I feel very strongly is there, a big desire to help others learn and grow. Its nice to know that is still permitted ;)

It's not a question of permission. It appears and happens or it doesn't, I guess.

. I see that the mind can be like well if I can't be 'me' then 'I'm just going to be a nobody and have no impact and might as well be invisible' ha.

Yes. Ha ha. The appearance of poor "me" imagining its own relegation or non,-existence. But what mind? We speak as though it's a given thing.

. The incredible landing of this information! 'I am everything', from being no self. Wow.

We need to be careful. It is very incredible and beautiful but I say it to challenge the assumption that "I am nothing" . "I am everything" still assumes that"I am some thing"

. I do believe we have the choice in whether to engage with that thought on not,

Perhaps, once it is recognised?

. But then that is to have already "woken up" to the nature of that false thinking. Who "did" the waking up? There is now awareness that some thoughts were deluded . Moments ago these ideas seemed completely real. Who or what "intervened"?

Likewise, now that the illusion is noticed, is someone busy maintaining clarity by "engaging"? If so, where is that entity? Can one be found ?

. But I'm not sure we can actually prevent thought from occurring fully. Like it can't just be 'switched off' can it? Only the interaction can be chosen or not, no?

. I'm trying to get to what 'pulls us out again', and I'd say it is that memory of awareness, that this is not who we are. Could I call it a deep remembering. But what happens to make us break the engagement? I can only describe it as remembering the truth of who we are! That's as far as ive got attempting to figure that out. Does it happen by itself? No, I'd say that's where we have our only choice.

We should explore "choice" next time, if you are interested.? It's relevant.

Jon

[luckystarz]

Hey Jon

Are you continuing to work with any spiritual or shamanic teachers right now?

Can totally see what you mean about this. I’m determined to not let this interfere or be contradictory. Currently I am studying the non dual teaching of A Course In Miracles with two teachers. So you’re fully in the know.

I have no intension of disappearing. I’m committed. :)

Yes. Ha ha. The appearance of poor "me" imagining its own relegation or non,-existence. But what mind? We speak as though it's a given thing.

What mind? I’m guessing you are pointing to there is no separate I? That there is expectation that there should always be belonging of a mind to an individual, where as perhaps there is just awareness? Or one collective mind mirroring itself?

Perhaps, once it is recognised?

. But then that is to have already "woken up" to the nature of that false thinking. Who "did" the waking up? There is now awareness that some thoughts were deluded . Moments ago these ideas seemed completely real. Who or what "intervened"?

Likewise, now that the illusion is noticed, is someone busy maintaining clarity by "engaging"? If so, where is that entity? Can one be found ?

Who did the waking up? A good question. That which is ‘seeing’ the illusion. Seeing the perceived world. Yes there is awareness some thoughts were deluded. The who that intervened is that which is always here. That which ‘chooses differently’. That if there is any choice at all, it chooses to engage in thoughts - or that it chooses simply to perceive. And that’s all?

Yes there is an awareness of engaging - an awareness aware that it is aware if that makes sense. One can be found. A perceived ‘consistency’ we could say. Yes as I type this - it’s almost like it begins to disappear which is very odd. It’s almost like typing is happening. And that’s all. Some sort of perceived change in perception? And disappearance of that which is ‘engaging’ or trying. And rather simply witnessing. Watching it all. Word after word.

We should explore "choice" next time, if you are interested.? It's relevant.

Yes I would love to explore choice. Very.

Best wishes
Tom

[JonathanR]

Hi Tom

. We should explore "choice" next time, if you are interested.?

And we will but there are one or two things before that.

. Currently I am studying the non dual teaching of A Course In Miracles with two teachers. So you’re fully in the know

Ok. Thank you. If you and I reach any point at which there seems to be contradiction or confusion between what you're hearing there and here please let me know straight away? Even if it's just a vague contradiction?

. I have no intension of disappearing. I’m committed

That's my impression too but know that it is possible to miss the utter simplicity and obviousness of no self where expectations of something amazing, especially some amazing experience or outcome, are active.

. What mind? I’m guessing you are pointing to there is no separate I? That there is expectation that there should always be belonging of a mind to an individual, where as perhaps there is just awareness? Or one collective mind mirroring itself

It's an invitation to take a look for what is labelled "mind". Where is this thing that, according to convention, is assumed to be "real" and "exist"?

. Who did the waking up? A good question. That which is ‘seeing’ the illusion. Seeing the perceived world. Yes there is awareness some thoughts were deluded. The who that intervened is that which is always here. That which ‘chooses differently’. That if there is any choice at all, it chooses to engage in thoughts - or that it chooses simply to perceive. And that’s all?

You're asking me?

Youve provided a reasoned interpretation of what you think or feel must be "doing" the waking up. But what if the waking up just happens ?

. Yes there is an awareness of engaging - an awareness aware that it is aware if that makes sense. One can be found.

Yes,awareness of awareness. There can be that but looking at it, do I at core find some thing, entity or whatever that is experiencing awareness?

Is there an experiencer of experience ? (It's an oddly worded question isn't it?)

. it’s almost like it begins to disappear which is very odd. It’s almost like typing is happening. And that’s all. Some sort of perceived change in perception? And disappearance of that which is ‘engaging’ or trying. And rather simply witnessing. Watching it all. Word after word

Well that is interesting :-)

Jon