Harmonie

[Laubfrosch]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
We get more and more Informations about our self, and so we get an image about who we are. Because we have some memories, feedback from others, learnings and so on. And we begin to believe we ARE this image. But it’s only a construction of our mind. Like a basket full with characteristics, memories, … we only see the content, but we are the basket.

What are you looking for at LU?
I’m searching for my real inner self. For the divine in me an others. I wanna feel that everything is one and that there are no borders out of my bordered mind. I wanna be a good life teacher for my students.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect that a guide can be like a signpost for me. That he/she mirrors me and show me when I go into the wrong direction. I want to feel his/her present and awareness to get an idea what I‘m searching for.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I like to meditate and practise Yoga. I took LSD for 3 times and I belief that this can help. For me the substance shows how it is to FEEL the real self. That made me much more interested in Buddhism and spirituality. I want to feel this all the time in my life. I wish to feel the entire moment, feel the wonder of being.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[atmajnani]

Dear laubfrosch,

Welcome to LU!
My nickname is Atmajnani and I can be your guide if you wish so.

This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Conceptual and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.

To begin with, take some time to see whether you have any reservations about seeing that there isn't a 'me' separate from everything else. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

Which feelings come up when you read 'There is no inherent separate 'me', there never was, and there never will be'?

Is there something you don't want to happen?

How do you expect it to be like when it becomes clear that there is no 'me'?
How will it feel? What will change and what will stay the same?

Please, copy-paste each question into your reply using the quote function above (4th button left) and then write your answer.

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Laubfrosch]

Dear Atmajnani,

First thank you for wanna be “my” Guide 😊.

Which feelings come up when you read 'There is no inherent separate 'me', there never was, and there never will be'?

The first thoughts are. How can it be that this illusion is so big. How can it be that I never realised this fact. How can it be that the most people never realise this and how can it be that there is not more talking about this topic. The first feeling is hard to describe. I would say there is a fear to loose something. Maybe forever. And one the one hand side I want to loose this imagination and on the other hand side there is no imagination what will “be” there if I loose “myself”. An then there is the thought how can I “loose” something what never existed.



Is there something you don't want to happen?

Hm, I’m not sure. Actually not.



How do you expect it to be like when it becomes clear that there is no 'me'?
How will it feel? What will change and what will stay the same?

In my imagination it is like you wake up from a dream. An everything what seems to be real before is from one moment to the other not real. Nothing changed, only the view of everything. I think it will feel trusted and in a way “normal”. Like it was always like this.

Warmly
Laubfrosch

[atmajnani]

Hi Laubfrosch,

Nice to hear back from you.
I will write questions in blue and when answering first click in the 'Quote' button above, then copy the question and paste it between the quote brackets, and answer below the question. I show you how it looks below. It's easier to read text this way. Before sending the answer you can always check how it looks clicking the preview button (and then don't forget to send ;-)). Try to answer everyday to create momentum in your mind.

I would say there is a fear to loose something... And then there is the thought how can I “loose” something that never existed.

Fear is meant to protect you from some danger or harm, but the illusion of a separate self never existed. Keep reminding yourself of that everytime fear increases.

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up. Here is an example to illustrate the difference (Coloured Socks exercise):

If I ask you what colour the socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a thought about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember
putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.
• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by LOOKING.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in LOOKING AT and SEEING what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct
experience in the moment.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Love,
Atmajnani

[Laubfrosch]

Okay, I will try it.

If I ask you what colour the socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a thought about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember
putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.
• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by LOOKING.

Yes, knowed which kind of socks I wear. And I also knowed the Color nearly. But of course the colour in my mind is not the exact colour and not the exact pattern. Also they changes their colour a little bit from wearing. It is much more real to look at the socks and there are much more perceptions. If I think of the socks their is only: This pattern, this color and not more.

I think I understand the difference.

[atmajnani]

Hi Laubfrosch,

Good, you are on the rigth track.
Here's another exercise to understand what is direct experience.

Have a look at an apple below. If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.

http://www.maryshomestead.com/sitebuild ... /fruit.gif

When looking at an apple, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple’, and maybe a thought saying "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.
What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.
Actual experience is sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation and thought (not its content)
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.
This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Love,
Atmajnani

[Laubfrosch]

Hello Atmajnani,

I’m so sorry for let you waiting so long. I wasn’t at home the last days and I thought I could answer, but it wasn’t possible. Now I’m home again.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No. The apple can”t found in the experience. I can’t taste him; I can’t feel him; I can’t smell him; there is only the Color a the knowing, this looks like an apple. But there is no experience of “apple”.

However, is an apple actually known?

There is no apple. We found a word for a group of sensations. If there is this Color, this taste, this smell … then we call it apple, and if we call it apple, it must “be” an apple. But it is only the image of something we call apple. Everyone has his one image of an apple. The “own” apple was created by a lot of experience and images of other people. The image of apple is completely different to the real experience of apple. If there is somebody who never had eaten an apple you can describe him everything you know of an apple. Every detail. Maybe he becomes an expert of “knowing about apples” but all this can’t substitute the experience of an “real” apple.

Warmly,
Laubfrosch 😊

[atmajnani]

Hi Laubfrosch,

Very well. It seems you are already familiar with the difference between labels and direct experience.
Your description of the self illusion in the initial message seems detailed and accurate, have you had a glimpse of the self-illusion before that you would like to discuss or clarify?

Here is an exercise to observe thoughts. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.
Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just
notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is that just another thought that says ‘these
thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Laubfrosch]

Hi Atmajnani,

Have you had a glimpse of the self-illusion before that you would like to discuss or clarify?

I’m not sure what you mean with am glimpse of the self-illusion. I think it is nearly 20 years ago and I was lying on the gras it was dark and warm outside and I was looking in the sky. I saw a lot of stars and I was thinking about what it means “to be”. And then there was the thought: “What ist this “I” who is thinking here. Where is it? Who is it? Is it? It was a very special moment for me. It is hard to describe. Maybe there was something how let me doubt on the existence of me. But the illusion was to big. I wasn‘t able to see the through at this moment. But I can‘t forget this moment.
Another thing who was special to me was as I toke LSD. I was able to feel the here and now with all details. It was so beautiful. But there was no „me“ anymore. There was only the actual moment. And I was feeling I‘m one with the whole world. I wasn’t able to feel anything bad. There was always the feeling also the „bad“ things must be. I realised the „good“ thing can only exist when there is another side. And I also realised, that this duality only exists in „our“ world. But life is „one“. Life is like it is. It’s always all of it. „good“ and „bad“. Also this „words“ doesn’t exist. It is. And it isn‘t possible to describe. And it is not necessary to describe. You can only perceive it. It is like it is with everything (like the exercise with the apple). If you describe it, you describe it. Only thoughts. You can‘t feel it. After this I realised, that I there is more I want to know. I want to see the truth. I was interested in Buddhism and started to meditate, made yoga, read some books and so I find this forum.
I‘m not sure if it is important to discuss this experiences.

Warmly
Laubfrosch

[Laubfrosch]

Where are they coming from and going to?

They come from nowhere and go to nowhere.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No, they disappear without doing anything by me.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No, I have no impact about the thoughts.

Can you predict your next thought?

No, it seems to be that one though leads to another, but I‘m not able to control anything.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just
notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is that just another thought that says ‘these
thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

For me this is the biggest illusion in this exercise. I‘t seems that there is an order. So there in one thought and then there is another. And between there is the thought why the one thought leads to the next. But this thoughts between are difficult to identify for me. All of this „side story telling“ thoughts are harder to identify then the obvious once about things or feelings. But If you look exactly there are a lot of them. All the time. If I don‘t want to think about one thought. Then there is the thought „Don‘t think“ „You shouldn’t think“ „Don‘t think“.

Warmly
Laubfrosch

[atmajnani]

Hi Laubfrosch,

You said

I took LSD. I was able to feel the here and now with all details. But there was no "me“ anymore. There was only the actual moment. And I was feeling I‘m one with the whole world. I wasn’t able to feel anything bad. There was always the feeling also the "bad“ things must be. I realised the „good“ thing can only exist when there is another side. And I also realised, that this duality only exists in „our“ world. But life is „one“. Life is like it is. It’s always all of it. „good“ and „bad“.

So you clearly saw there isn't a 'separate self' or 'anything' separated from Life during a LSD trip which induces an altered state of consciousness.
When you returned to your 'normal' state of consciousness did these realizations disappeared?
Once you see that Santa Claus is an illusion you can't believe it anymore, do you?
Can you pinpoint what creates the duality of 'good' and 'bad'?

Warmly,
Atmanani

[Laubfrosch]

Hi Atmajnani,

When you returned to your 'normal' state of consciousness did these realizations disappeared?

Yes and no. Who tells me, that this was the truth. I know in the experience I was 100% sure, but after it there were doubts. “Everyone” says “drugs” are so dangerous and make you crazy. But my feeling was no, they tell me the truth. The first time in my life I really saw the truth. But what if I went crazy. I had an “ego” for 30 years and now there was one crazy experience (with an other state of consciousness) and that should be “more real”. That sounds crazy. I think I can’t believe this 100% because it was not in my daily life and not in my “normal” state of consciousness. The first days after this experience it was very present to me and also I was very present. But after a while it was more like a dream. A beautiful dream. After a while the daily life with the “old, known experience” overlayed this experience more and more. But it is not gone. I think every day back to this experience. And I know that there is “more”. Before this experience I wasn’t believing in anything out of science. And now this seems absolutely naiv to me. Since that my life isn’t the same as before. A lot of views changed and I feel more relaxed and free. I started with meditation and yoga. It was more easy for me because I had the feeling “I know what I’m looking for”. There is the big wish to see it again. In my real life. I want to see the truth.
I would say it was like a shortcut in a game. You get there, but you don’t know how to get there an so can’t do it again. You haven’t found the way, only the aim. But I think it is necessary to find the way too. That’s why I’m here. Maybe I also wasn’t ready for the truth at this moment.

Warmly,
Laubfrosch

[Laubfrosch]

And one more thing. It was a little bit like a window that was opened and shows you “another” world. And while the experience everything made sense. And I knowed the truth. But after the end of the experience this window was closed. And there was no way to open it again (like in the example with the game, I don’t know the way). The only way seems to be: Take the drug again. I tried it. And there was the thought “Oh yes, I’m here again. This was it. This was the truth. This time I will never forget this “feeling”, this “knowing”.” But then the window is closing again. So I accepted for me, that I must find another way. A way which hold the “gate” open. That’s why “I’m” here.

Warmly
Laubfrosch

[atmajnani]

Hi Laubfrosch,

Was there less background thoughts/chating during your LSD trips compared to your 'normal' state of consciousness?

How is doubt experienced? Look closely, what is DOUBT?

How is Truth experienced? Notice the difference between Truth and Doubt and report back.

You said

Since that my life isn’t the same as before. A lot of views changed and I feel more relaxed and free.

. It seems to me a clear shift happened :-)

Even when the awakening shift happens in a 'normal' state of consciousness that 'closing of the window' may happen due to the remaining beliefs still in place. You need to question them one by one and SEE all that is illusion until only Truth remains. We will work on this during our dialogues.

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Laubfrosch]

Can you pinpoint what creates the duality of 'good' and 'bad'?

Sorry, I forgot this question. I would say it is only our mind. Life is like it is. For an example there is one animal who eats the other. So you can say it is “good” for the one and “bad” for the other one. It depends of the view. Our mind creates this difference, this duality. And often we only see one side and so we didn’t realise, that there is also the other side. And if we only see a part of the “one”, we can’t see the truth. Because the truth ist “the one”. After this experience I had the feeling that I really understand what the symbol of Yin and Yang means.

Was there less background thoughts/chating during your LSD trips compared to your 'normal' state of consciousness?

Yes, at the “peak” of the trip there was only pure experience. I was listening to music and my eyes were closed. And there where no more thoughts, only the experience of the sound. I “felt” the sound. It’s hard to describe but there was no more “me” there was only the sound and the experience of the sound. It was more like being part of the sound. The thought lose their importance (until the peak of the trip). The “me” and the “thoughts” disappeared more and more. Instead of the thoughts there was the real experience. Sometimes I felt like it is the first time I “really” saw an tree or the gras. But after the peak the thoughts came back. There where a lot of thoughts and mind loops who want to explain the experience.

How is doubt experienced? Look closely, what is DOUBT?

Thoughts. Thoughts who want to say “don’t believe this or that” .Thought who create their own story. A Resistance from the thoughts against the truth. It is not possible to experience doubts. There are only thoughts who come and go. It is not possible to control the thoughts, it’s only possible to identify them as this what they are.

How is Truth experienced? Notice the difference between Truth and Doubt and report back.

Truth is a completely different experience. It is a “real” experience, not only thoughts. There is a feeling of everything is “right”, “still”, “deep”, “once”, “big” … it’s not possible to describe. It’s only possible to experience this.

Warmly
Laubfrosch