help me to escape the madhouse ;-)

[NickName]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
When I am present I have glimpses of realizing that this "me" is just a mental concept. But I can't get to the point that I can't unsee it. This woman named "xy" is just an idea and I believe it, because in our society nearly everyone does. But who am I when I am not that person? That in which the thoughts and feelings arise is what remains.

What are you looking for at LU?
I tapped into LU practices from time to time over years and had quite some insights.
When I inquire about the self I get glimpses of what it might be like to have crossed the “gate”. When the story is interrupted by questioning who it is who is thinking the thoughts I often get very calm inside. I have the idea that my life would be much easier when I could finally realize that there is no such separate self. I am aware that this might not be the case for my life circumstances. I might have to deal with difficult people, I might have to deal with not knowing the way and things not going the way I want them to go. But I think I would be more at peace with whatever happens.
Also I’ve been lurking around LU practices for quite some years now, tapping into them from time to time and letting them go. I feel that now is the time to fully get into them and bring this to an end whatever the meaning of this may be.

So what I hope to get from you guys is to find clarity about who I really am. Once and for all. I can see that "I" is a thought, is a concept when I take the time to look. But there is no a-ha. I constantly forget it. I want to be able to just let life flow. I know that it won't solve my problems, but I feel that I wouldn't have any additional problems on top of the original ones when I can uncover the illusion of being separate.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
When I am on my own I find it difficult to focus long enough to come to a point of real clarity. I do some of your practices from time to time and I find them very helpful. When I inquire about the self I often get very calm and sometimes I can see that life is just happening by itself. I get an idea of what it is like to have crossed the gate. But then I forget about it as life carries on. So the reason I asked for guidance is to help me stay focused.

As described below my mind is very sceptical, maybe even suspicious. So I would be happy to have a guide who can handle that I might challenge what he/she sais even when I can see for the moment that there is truth in what I find through direct pointing and who knows how to deal with that.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
When I first got into direct pointing I realized very quickly that what I was referring to as "I" was just a sensation in the body. Huge anxiety came up. I looked at my husband lying beside me in bed. I felt that this person is not my husband, but just a person. It felt like lying beside a stranger. This scared me so much that I stuffed the realization that "me" is just a concept away in my mind to "forget" about it. This is very unusual for me, as I am usually being very honest with myself and rather interested in truth, even when it is painful.

Over the years I got into other spiritual teachings and meanwhile I feel much more connected to myself and emotionally stable. So the idea that there is no such self doesn't scare me anymore. But still my mind is VERY sceptical. I have thoughts like "yeah, as a baby you told me that I am a girl, my name is xy, I can do this, I can't do that..." and I believed it. Now you're telling me "you actually don't exist, you were just hypnotized as everyone" and when I start to believe that, who knows if not some years later someone else is coming along, telling me I was fooled again and actually it's not true that I am consciousness or whatever, but I am xyz (maybe an alien or whatever...?). I totally get that you're telling me to look for myself and not believe anything. But reading your stuff I find quite some leading questions. Like "where do thoughts come from? Notice that thoughts just arise." You're telling me to look for myself, but you're telling me what to look for. That's exactly the way I was made believe that I am a human being. But ok, let me give it a try to see where it leads. So I look where thoughts come from. When I am present I can see that they just arise. But another spiritual path I followed told me e.g. that I am an energy being and that energy is constantly rushing through me up and down my spine. And yes, I can feel and sometimes even get glimpses of seeing that, too. So I feel that I can find whatever I am looking for. And maybe all of it is true. Like light can be particle and wave - whatever you're looking for.
I totally understand that you are demanding to let other spiritual practices aside when being guided by you. But finally for me it has to come together. I can’t just follow one path and ignore the others. I was always following different teachings and found it very helpful to see how they fit together and how they are pointing to the same reality even when they teach contradictory things. So I am not sure if I really can ignore anything else. Because like described above I am sceptical and when you're telling me to look only from one perspective I feel that can be only one part of the truth. (Like 3 blind men trying to describe an elephant. One describing the tail, another describing the trunk and the third describing the ear.)
So I am willing to set other practices and paths aside for the time of the guiding, but then I might have to reconcile that with other ideas. I don’t know. And there were more examples where I just can’t agree to what I read from LU. Things that, according to you are so obvious when you just look. I would love to find it obvious, but even if I can follow what you’re saying and even if I can see it, my mind wants to test it. Is it really true? And so I never come to the point where I can finally say it is true.


Especially during the last couple of years I was engaging in quite some spiritual practices. I got into whatever resonated with me. To me only the practical aspect was relevant. Intellectual understanding of these things only mattered to me when they were relevant for understanding how to integrate the ideas into my life on a practical level. I was never interested in any general knowledge about certain streams or teachings. And I love to learn from different streams and teachers, because I find it very helpful to look at the same thing from different angles and understand them with different words. I have practiced different kinds of meditation, used practices to questions my thoughts/beliefs, awareness practices to feel feelings and learned from many, many people. I followed rather modern teachers than any traditional path. I never got very deep into only one teaching/practice as I love to understand how they are connected and then from time to time let go of any practice and find my own way.

Sometimes I am quite present, but sometimes I am still very confused about life. When too many thoughts are spinning through my head I sometimes feel a little bit like I am in a madhouse.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Lubo]

Hi dear,
What name you prefer to call you?

Welcome to the forum.
My name is Lubo and I can join you in this journey and we can walk together for a while, if you are OK?


I read your intro and we can start with this one, if you are ok:

"yeah, as a baby you told me that I am a girl, my name is xy, I can do this, I can't do that..." and I believed it. Now you're telling me "you actually don't exist, you were just hypnotized as everyone" and when I start to believe that

yes. Wonderful Pleas ask your mind - "My dear mind I am totally agree with you, we no longer need new believes or someones ideas or teachings. Are you ready to FIND what really is going on here?"
And notice the answer?

So what I hope to get from you guys is to find clarity about who I really am.

Yes, you have right to find the freedom

But another spiritual path I followed told me e.g. that I am an energy being and that energy is constantly rushing through me up and down my spine. And yes, I can feel and sometimes even get glimpses of seeing that, too. So I feel that I can find whatever I am looking for. And maybe all of it is true. Like light can be particle and wave - whatever you're looking for.

Check what is truth for you. Say "I am energy"
, and the say
"There is beautiful energy"

What is coming?

Much love
Lubo

[NickName]

Hi Lubo,

Thank you so much for your reply.
I am quite busy for the next 1-2 days.
I will reply asap when I can find some time.
Looking forward to our conversation 🤗
Best wishes,
Nicole

[Lubo]

Hi dear Nicole,
OK. Thanks for letting me know.
Take your time.
I am here.

Love
Lubo

[NickName]

Dear Lubo,

thanks for your patience. I'm sorry, it all took longer than expected, but from now I have time to post regularly and am very happy to start our inquiry.

First of all thank you so much for taking the time to read my long post about all the thoughts spinning in my head and to dedicate your time and heart to be my guide. I appreciate it very much. In general I can bring down all my doubts to "Just because I see it doesn't necessarily mean that it is true". All that I notice is that when I do the LU practices I get very calm and that is why I think there must be truth in it.

Wonderful Pleas ask your mind - "My dear mind I am totally agree with you, we no longer need new believes or someones ideas or teachings. Are you ready to FIND what really is going on here?"
And notice the answer?

"I" notice a feeling of joy in my heartspace. There is an internal "Yes"

Check what is truth for you. Say "I am energy"
, and the say
"There is beautiful energy"

What is coming?

"I am energy" - when I think or say I am energy I start with the breathing practice I have learned from that spiritual teaching where I have learned that I am energy. It just starts automatically, there is not intention to do it. But there is no feeling that I am that energy. It is just the breath and energy going up and down my spine.

"There is beautiful energy" - The same happens. Breath/energy going up and down my spine without the intention to do it, but no identification with this energy. Maybe it feels a little bit more joyous, because of the word "beautiful", but in general the same things happen.

[Lubo]

Hi dear Nicole,

thanks for your patience. I'm sorry, it all took longer than expected, but from now I have time to post regularly and am very happy to start our inquiry

Nice. OK.

First of all thank you so much for taking the time to read my long post about all the thoughts spinning in my head and to dedicate your time and heart to be my guide. I appreciate it very much.

Thank you very much this. There is a joy to walk with you .

Wonderful Pleas ask your mind - "My dear mind I am totally agree with you, we no longer need new believes or someones ideas or teachings. Are you ready to FIND what really is going on here?"
And notice the answer?

"I" notice a feeling of joy in my heartspace. There is an internal "Yes"

Yes , you can use I, we are looking that there is no inherent self, or persona, you are not a thing.

Ok. So the mind is ready to stop bringing here traumatic stories, wonderful.
Notice, without the story that contractions in the body are proof that there is someone in danger, that there is danger...
What is coming without this story?

I start with the breathing practice

This is amazing way to realise the truth. Notice when the breath is hold, during the practice, is there persona or big powerful being?
Are you a person?

Love
Lubo

[NickName]

Hi Lubo,

Ok. So the mind is ready to stop bringing here traumatic stories, wonderful.
Notice, without the story that contractions in the body are proof that there is someone in danger, that there is danger...
What is coming without this story?

Without the story of someone being in danger, contraction happens. Thoughts arise "I am so contracted", "The doctor told me it has to do with my hormon levels",... As soon as there is the realization that there is no one there to be in danger relaxation happens at least to a certain degree. Thoughts are getting less and stop for a while.

I start with the breathing practice

This is amazing way to realise the truth. Notice when the breath is hold, during the practice, is there persona or big powerful being?
Are you a person?

The breath won't stop by itself. But when I set the intention to stop the breath, it stops until breathing starts again by itself (the need to breathe gets stronger the longer breathing stops). Now who is stopping that breath? Who is setting the intention?

I can take two perspectives:
1) One is when I narrow down my focus to the thought of the intention "Now I am stopping the breath". It feels like I'm doing it. Then I identify with that thought. That's the way I used to think my whole life, because I've learned to see it that way.

2) Another perspective is taken when the focus gets wide. Then the thought "Now I am stopping the breath" just arises. No one is doing it. It feels that it is just happening.


So if I choose option 1 this feels true. When I choose option 2 it also feels true. But who is choosing one of the two options? When I ask myself that question the focus gets wide and things seem to happen by themselves. Until I am identified with thought again and it feels like I am doing it. So the focus seems to switch by itself from being identified with thought and experiencing a story and seeing that things are just happening.

Thank you,
Nicole

[Lubo]

Hi Nicole,
You are doing very well.

Without the story of someone being in danger, contraction happens. Thoughts arise "I am so contracted"

Notice that thoughts tell a story about identification, that this contraction is you?
Say to this contraction: "I love you because I am totally free from you"
and notice what is behind this contraction, is there someone contracted? :)

"Now I am stopping the breath". It feels like I'm doing it. Then I identify with that thought

Mmm, notice that thoughts sells identification that there is a person breathing?
Can you find such an element, the breather?

I am with you,
Lubo

[NickName]

Dear Lubo

Notice that thoughts tell a story about identification, that this contraction is you?

Wow! This was helpful. When I say "I am contracted" I am literally saying what I am is contracted. Never could see that before although I had this thought before. But it was just on a mental level.

Say to this contraction: "I love you because I am totally free from you"
and notice what is behind this contraction, is there someone contracted? :)

When I did that, the contraction shrank to a small spot inside of me (or expressing it differently my focus gets wide so that there is space around the contraction. Behind the contraction is space (not sure if this is the right word, but the best I can think of) and relaxation. I can't find someone who is contracted.
But then my mind/doubts kick in. Did you ever play hide and seek as a kid? Let's say you and I play that game. Lubo is hiding, Nicole is seeking. She looks in every corner of the house, but can't find Lubo. She even looks in the garden. No Lubo. Now does that mean that Lubo doesn't exist or did she just overlook him, because she didn't look carefully enough. Or because Lubo sneaked into another room where Nicole had already searched.
So now Nicole is seeking Nicole. She looks in every corner of her body, she examines her thoughts and realizes there is no Nicole who is seeking Nicole. Does it mean that she doesn't exist or did she just not find her?

"Now I am stopping the breath". It feels like I'm doing it. Then I identify with that thought

Mmm, notice that thoughts sells identification that there is a person breathing?
Can you find such an element, the breather?

No, I can't. But...see above.

Thanks,
Nicole

[Lubo]

Hi dear Nicole,
Nice.

Can you find such an element, the breather?

No, I can't. But...see above

.

:) What if there is No Nicole and where it is looked it is obvious that there isn't but just idea still going on that there should be Nicole in some other place but not where it is looked?

Wow! This was helpful. When I say "I am contracted" I am literally saying what I am is contracted. Never could see that before although I had this thought before. But it was just on a mental level.

Notice - the illusion is that there is Human, persona, an entity Nicole and this story continue with everything which appear RIGHT now, is this clear?
Time is important part of the illusion, because this imagined human was born, has a life-story and end.
Notice how this story is playing full on right now?
Also notice this moment pure no story, notice how innocent and freely are the breathing and movements of the body?
This is short cut - movement of the body is fresh and is expression of life but not expression of a story-self, human Nicole, what is coming?

Love,
Lubo

[NickName]

Hi Lubo,

:) What if there is No Nicole and where it is looked it is obvious that there isn't but just idea still going on that there should be Nicole in some other place but not where it is looked?

When searching for the truth I want to check all possibilities, not just the one that seems obvious. I found it very obvious for my whole life that I am a human being. So what if it was obvious, but still not true? I have been fooled once (believing I am a human being), so I want to be very sure to not be fooled again.

Notice - the illusion is that there is Human, persona, an entity Nicole and this story continue with everything which appear RIGHT now, is this clear?

Yes I can see that. But I get drawn into my story again and again. In these moments it feels very real that I am a human/persona. I can see that I don't exist when I take the time and effort to look, but wherever I am focused (human or not existing) feels true.

When I realize it is just a story I can see that Nicole entity doesn't exist. But I don't find it very obvious that there is nothing, no persona. There is no realization such as Santa Claus doesn't exist and I can't unsee it. There is slipping back into the story and seeing this as being possibly true.

Time is important part of the illusion, because this imagined human was born, has a life-story and end.
Notice how this story is playing full on right now?

This one took me a while to really get it. I can see that I am here. Sitting in front of my computer. Typing. My past is not here, my future is not here. I can imagine situations from the past, but it is just an idea. I can imagine my future, but it is just an idea.
So if there is no past no one has ever fooled me and made me believe that I am a human being. There is no Nicole looking for Nicole. It is a story. All the doubts are very logical and conclusive, but they are all part of the story.
I've taken some time now to let that sink in.
There is in general less story now in my life. Things just happen and I react less. Someone ignored me. The story started "why is he not talking to me? Maybe he doesn't like me." But then I realized it is just someone going away without having a chat with me.

Also notice this moment pure no story, notice how innocent and freely are the breathing and movements of the body?
This is short cut - movement of the body is fresh and is expression of life but not expression of a story-self, human Nicole, what is coming?

Yes I can see and feel that. When I am just breathing and moving there is peace. Things are not personal. They happen. But there is still the tendency to get drawn into the story.

Thanks for your patience.
Nicole

[Lubo]

Ooo, Hi dear Nicole,
I just check and I find that my replay is not published...5 days ago.

How are you, is there something new?

I found it very obvious for my whole life that I am a human being.

What is this I which identifies with human? is there Nicole in the human?

But I get drawn into my story again and again. In these moments it feels very real that I am a human/persona

What are you? "I am drown in the story that I am persona" - excellent - this is seen :)
Stay there!

I can see that I don't exist

Mmm, read it in this way "I can see that I doesn't exist as a persona/human" how you feel that?
You wrote also this:

When I realize it is just a story I can see that Nicole entity doesn't exist. But I don't find it very obvious that there is nothing, no persona.

Of course there is something, just there is no persona :) Wonderful You can trust your Direct Experience.

I can see that I am here. Sitting in front of my computer. Typing. My past is not here, my future is not here.

Yes, no time. Notice the movements of the body - are they have a story? or they are fresh fresh?
Where they are coming from ? from an entity in side the body or from nothingness?
Do the movements are someone?
Breathing is someone or no-one?

Love
Lubo

[NickName]

Hello Lubo,

I'm glad you're good.

A bit happened during those last days. :-) In my last post I had written that I don't find it obvious that I am not a person. Ilona mentions in her book that it's like realizing that there is no Santa Claus and for me it doesn't look that obvious. But then I realized that I had such a moment. I wrote it in my first post that I realized years ago that what I was referring to as "I" was only a sensation. It was very clear and obvious. I just decided to unsee it, because it was so scary.
And even though I can't proof that Santa Claus doesn't exist I don't continue searching him, because it's obvious that he does not exist by the way children learn about who he is and what he does.
But still I have to look again and again to ensure myself that I do not exist as a person.

What is this I which identifies with human? is there Nicole in the human?

My mental concept of a human was a body + a personality (ways of behaving, what I like/dislike, beliefs about myself, others and the world, skills). But when I look for myself inside this body "Nicole" is a sensation in my body. When I first realized that, it was a special sensation at the back of my neck. When I take a look now, it is a warm sensation in my heart space. I say "Nicole" and my attention goes on that sensation.

Mmm, read it in this way "I can see that I doesn't exist as a persona/human" how you feel that?

When I explore my body I find that there is no clear boundary. If I would be a body it would make sense to feel my body exactly to my skin and not further. But when I touch the table with my finger there is a certain sensation that goes beyond my finger. I also can feel the clothes on my skin. But how can I feel them when my body ends with my skin? I have learned that the sensation is perceived in the brain. So everything exists just in my brain. The whole outside world exists in my brain. When I argue with someone it is because they have another perception of the world than I have. So how can I know I am that body when I never experience what is really there, but only what is perceived in my brain? If society wasn't so consistent about who we are I would have to ensure myself being a human each day, because when I explore that right now, I don't find it obvious that I am a human.
When I sit on my desk and want to get myself something to drink I just go to get me a drink. It just happens (sometimes having the thought "I am thirsty" before). When I ask myself "who wants to get a drink?" I can only find that sensation in my heart space and around it there is space. In the moments when I feel that I am a human I don't feel that space. When I say "I am a human. I am this body." My attention narrows down to a straight line from my head to the chest. But again, this is just a sensation. I can never find anything else than a sensation when I am looking for the one who is seeing, hearing, feeling, experiencing. So it does not make sense that I am a body.
When I believe I am a human I think I decide things. But very often I find that I don't have control. I do things I don't want to do (eat too much, getting angry, getting stressed). When I look how decisions are made I find I can't control anything.
How do I decide to pick up my mobile phone? I notice that it just happens. There is no intention. My hand just moves and it is picked up. Even when I say before "I pick up my phone now." it happens or does not happen. Looking for the one who is picking up the phone, again I find only that sensation in my heart space.
Thoughts and feelings arise. What I like/dislike changed throughout my life, what I believe changed, I have learned new skills, I have forgotten other skills, the way I behave changed. So if I was my personality I would be a different person now than I am 40 years back. And in fact I am. But what is it then what is consistent when I think I was Nicole 40 years ago and I am Nicole now? Some believes stayed, some things I like/dislike stayed, but they could change as well. A lot of skills would be lost if I had an accident and could not move. If I lost my memory people would maybe say something like "she is not herself anymore". But I would still exist. And also the other people would still refer to me as Nicole. So being a personality doesn't make so much sense as well.
What we maybe could agree on is that I can define myself through my story (I grew up in town x with parents and my siblings, went to school, got a certain job...). But as we have explored before, the past and future are just and idea in the mind. They are thoughts.

Yes, no time. Notice the movements of the body - are they have a story? or they are fresh fresh?
Where they are coming from ? from an entity in side the body or from nothingness?
Do the movements are someone?
Breathing is someone or no-one?

The movements of the body just happen. Sometimes I wonder how my body knows which movement to make and where to go. Even if I set an intention "I am riding with my bike to the train station." my body knows what to do.
If I go somewhere where I don't know the way my body stops moving, thoughts come up that evaluate the best route. I finally pick my phone and look on google maps. My legs move.
When I was sick a while ago my body hurt when I was moving. A couple of days later my body hurt sometimes when I moved my body. Now it doesn't hurt. I can make a story out of that from being sick to healing, to being healed. But the movement itself is always just the movement and the sensation (called pain in the story) is just a sensation. They happen. I don't choose them, I don't make them.
Again, when I ask myself who is it who is doing the movements, my attention goes to the heart space which is a sensation in my body field.
Breathing happens by itself. Always. Even when I sleep. I can say "I stop breathing" and it stops for a while, but only for a while then breathing happens again by itself. But I could have an accident and my breathing would stop. But this just happens too. Breathing would be stopped.
If find that always two things happen.
1) I feel I am in control and I decide things (it feels real).
2) But then this is being questioned and things are just happening by themselves. No control.
Then it is forgotten and I go back to 1) feeling in control.

[Lubo]

Hi dear Nicole,
Thank you for this sharing.

How you feel?
You know that this looking is not logical understanding.
Take a deep breath, rest for a while...

and notice is there producer of thoughts or thoughts are given?

Sometimes I wonder how my body knows which movement to make and where to go. Even if I set an intention "I am riding with my bike to the train station." my body knows what to do.

is it posible body to know?
Is there body in the body which knows something?
Or body is just label for this movements right now + sensations?
Is there body which owns them?

But when I touch the table with my finger there is a certain sensation that goes beyond my finger.

Do it again and in the same time notice surrounding sounds and notice with eyes closed:
- is there finger touching something or there is sensation?
- is there separation between sensation and sounds?
- can be find a centre where experience is happening?
- is there sound and experience of a sound, are there two things?
- sensation and experience of sensation, are there two things?
Is there a self ? Is there experiencer? Is there a thinker?

Take your time.
Much love
Lubo

[NickName]

Dear Lubo,

thank you for reminding me that I'm thinking too much. :-)
I love your questions. I'm still reflecting on them and just thought I'd share how far I have come by now to keep you updated.

notice is there producer of thoughts or thoughts are given?

Thoughts pop up out of nowhere. Mostly in the area of the head. But this is just about the location in space, they are not created by the head.

Sometimes I wonder how my body knows which movement to make and where to go. Even if I set an intention "I am riding with my bike to the train station." my body knows what to do.

is it posible body to know?

the body is moving. It just happens. I could write it doesn't know, because I guess that's what you would say. But in my experience it happens. Maybe it knows, maybe it doesn't. I have no idea how it happens.

Is there body in the body which knows something?

No, there is no body, no entity in the body. There are sensations, nothing else.

Or body is just label for this movements right now + sensations?

Mhm. In my experience I would say the body is a label for a certain shape I can see (head, arms, hands, fingers, legs,...) + sensations. Sometimes the shape moves, sometimes not (unless you count in breathing or micromovements - then it is always moving).

Is there body which owns them?

Sensations and movements are not owned by the body, often they are in the space of the bodyshape, but they are not made by the body.

But when I touch the table with my finger there is a certain sensation that goes beyond my finger.

Do it again and in the same time notice surrounding sounds and notice with eyes closed:

- is there finger touching something or there is sensation?

With eyes closed there is only sensation. But it took me a while to realize that, because in my mind's eye I imagined the finger touching the table even with eyes closed.

- is there separation between sensation and sounds?

No, sounds and sensations are both there. There is awareness of sounds and sensations. My neighbor is making loud noises. There is a sound and sensation together. Other sounds are there in the same space where sensations happen. (Means they are not related to each other, not happening at the same time). Not sure if that's what you mean.

- can be find a centre where experience is happening?

With eyes closed there is no centre of experience. But I also needed a while to realize that. With eyes open it seems there is a centre, because the perspective is always out of my eyes. But when opening the eyes after having them closed I can find that there is no centre of experience also with eyes open. This is what I feel when I say my focus gets wide.

- is there sound and experience of a sound, are there two things?

There is the experience of sound. Maybe you could also call it just sound, however you want to define it. But it is only one thing.

- sensation and experience of sensation, are there two things?

Only one thing. Experience

Is there a self ? Is there experiencer? Is there a thinker?

When I take time to get into your questions there is no self, no thinker or experiencer. Especially when there are no or very few thoughts, there is space, there are things happening. There are sensations, hearing, seeing. But still, when I stop reflecting I get drawn back into the story again soon. Especially when I do things and need to think to be able to organize things.

Thank you so much for guiding me.
Best wishes,
Nicole