can’t seem to go any deeper …

[Aletheia]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that the individual sense of self is ultimately a story fabricated by the mind, perhaps for the purpose of survival and differentiation in this world. But I only get this on an intellectual level: it hasn’t gone deep on an experiential level. I can’t seem to go any deeper than just seeing that it makes sense.

What are you looking for at LU?
I’m looking for a willing guide who can help me to see, on not just a mental but an experiential level, that the self is just a story, not to be taken seriously. I have an intuition that this self ‘knot’ is at the source of all my endless suffering, striving, searching, and pain. But it’s a slippery thing that I think of as a shapeshifter, always redirecting my attention away from its ultimate insubstantiality. I would love for someone to help me, perhaps through a more text-based route as I learn well through reading rather than watching and listening, through the gateless gate.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
It would be great to have direct, clear, practical, and down-to-earth pointers. It would be wonderful to have back and forth private conversations where I can ask questions and have them answered in whatever way the guide sees fit. I learn best through reading instead of watching or listening, so I would appreciate guided conversation through a text-based format.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been on the spiritual journey since 2011 and have dabbled in many paths through the years, but have ultimately found nearly all of them dissatisfying. I was raised in a strict religious environment, so I have been seeking ‘God’ I guess you could say since I was little. But I consider myself to be more spiritual than religious now, even though I’m often highly cynical and cautious around certain spiritual teachings and groups (due to the religious abuse experienced in the past). I found non-duality in 2015 and have been casually reading and listening to talks ever since. But more recently, I have felt a stronger impulse to explore who or what I really am. I have used the self-inquiry “who am I?” method in the past six months, but feel lost at sea, and a little ungrounded when I do it, even when experiencing a sense of inner clarity, spaciousness, and peace. So I know I need more guidance. Ultimately, I feel weary, tired of searching, chasing, and seeking, and I know on some level it will never end until I loosen the inner knot of self. Please help.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[warissem]

Good morning

I am glad to accompany you during the investigation of seeing through the illusion of a separate self.
There are some agreements to engage with :

Check here in the forum every day or at least once per 2 days. This is important to take the flow of looking. If you are not OK with this, I will invite another guide for you.

Put aside all what you know about advaita, spirituality, oneness or whatever around this topic.
Read the book Gateless Gate Crashers available on this forum and practice as it is given to you.

Read the disclaimer text and learn how to use the quote function (instructions are given on this forum).

Let me know when we can give a go.

best wishes
Warissem

[Aletheia]

Evening Warissem,

Thank you very much for offering to guide me through this process. Much gratitude!

Yes, I agree to check in here every day or once every two days.

I also agree to the other points you mentioned and will strive to put aside previous knowledge.

Where to from now?

Many thanks

[warissem]

Good evening

I want to know about your expectations about this process. Here are the questions.

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Give an answer to each question separately. Use the quote function to select the question. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

best wishes
Warissem

[Aletheia]

Thank you very much Warissem, here are my responses:

How will life change?

Honestly I have no idea how life will change … I assume there will be more inner peace, or joy, or a feeling of freedom. Things may not seem so heavy and serious as they once were. Maybe there won’t be as much fear of death, and certainly no more struggle to be the perfect person; to do and achieve everything. The exhausting spiritual search and struggle and obsession may disappear.

How will you change?

Is this a trick question? Haha :) Maybe on the character level there will still be quirks and neuroticism, but perhaps less so.

What will be different?

The difference I’d say would be in the approach to life — from a place of more openness, presence, and spontaneity than the rigidity and contraction of the ego self. Maybe in some ways, life will feel better, more free, more joyful. But I also know that pain is inevitable as it’s part of life … so this realization won’t necessarily make everything peaceful all the time. Pain will still happen, but the suffering that goes along with it might be less or perhaps even gone.

What is missing?

Speaking from where I am now, what’s missing is that realization — one that will finally go deep, that will stick. What’s missing is a deep felt sense understanding of who I truly am that goes beyond just a mental idea.

Warm thanks 🙏

[warissem]

Hi Aletheia

Most of your expectations are realistic. Now, we'll see what is the difference between thought stories and direct experience or "what is going on here now".

Thought stories is all the stories coming as inner voices, mental images, memories, judgments, assumptions, beliefs, ...
Direct experience is : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching or sensations.

The clue is to look at direct experience for each question which is asked here. And the answer must be SEEN (or heard, smelt, tasted or felt). It means that the answer is not given through the accumulated knowledge nor from memory. Concepts are used only to communicate.

Example : what is the color of the sky right now ?

There are 2 ways of giving an answer :

Look at the sky and SEE its color then give an answer
Or give an answer through memory or guess the answer.

During our dialog, we are interested in the first way of giving answers.

Let me know if this is clear for you, then we can go ahead.

Best wishes

[Aletheia]

Hi Warissem,

I understand that what you’re saying is to look for direct experience based on senses (sight, touch, taste, sound etc.) instead of depending on mental stories (memories, beliefs, assumptions, etc.).

I don’t know if you wanted me to give an answer to that example question about the sky, but when I go and actually look the sky is a cloudless cerulean blue from where I live right now.

Thank you 🌞

[warissem]

Good morning

I invite you to reinforce this understanding between thought stories and direct experience. Practice this all along 24/7 :
Example : a chair is seen. In direct experience there are only colors, the label "chair" is put on it. It is the same for all objects.
Does the label change what is seen, heard, smelt, felt, etc ...?

Play with this, with different objects and let me know how it feels.

Best for you

[Aletheia]

Okay, I will do this. So for example, I am now resting on a couch. I look at my “dog” resting on his bed too, but recognise that “dog” is just a label created by the mind. Instead, I would directly perceive color-shape-form without the label? Or, for example, I feel angry. But instead labeling it as anger and going into stories about it, I just perceive/feel the sensations of contraction, beating pulse, elevated heart rate, etc. Is this correct?

[warissem]

Hi Aletheia

Great. All is fine. You have caught all what I meant. It is valuable for the objects, animals, people, feelings, ...
Practice this, in fine you can look at this which is sitting on a couch.

Waiting for your insights.

[Aletheia]

Morning Warissem,

I have played around with differentiating the thought stories from the direct experience. What I notice is that when I perceive something through a label, it’s as though there’s a subtle veil over the world. I don’t really SEE the object as it truly is, just through a word and idea. I quickly glance over the object without really taking it in, if that makes sense. But when I drop the label and just look, without a definition from the mind, I feel like there is more intimacy - I can really see/feel/perceive from a place of more clarity. I notice things that I’ve never seen or felt before.

[warissem]

Good morning

Thank for your answers.

I can really see/feel/perceive from a place of more clarity. I notice things that I’ve never seen or felt before.

Great.

What arises when you read this :

There is no you in any shape or form, no separate entity, it never was, it will never be.

Best wishes

[Aletheia]

What arises when you read this :

There is no you in any shape or form, no separate entity, it never was, it will never be.

What arises is a feeling of recognition, also a bit of fear in the pit of my chest. My mind starts an argument, “But if there’s no me, how would I do anything? How would I exist to wash the clothes and get stuff done? What would stop me from walking in front of a bus because I can’t differentiate me from the bus?” I know this is illogical or maybe silly, but I would appreciate your reflections on this.

Thank you 🚌

[warissem]

Good evening

What arises is a feeling of recognition, also a bit of fear in the pit of my chest.

When a fear is there, welcome it and thank it to be here. Look at the sensation and tell me what is behind it.

My mind starts an argument, “But if there’s no me, how would I do anything? How would I exist to wash the clothes and get stuff done? What would stop me from walking in front of a bus because I can’t differentiate me from the bus?” I know this is illogical or maybe silly, but I would appreciate your reflections on this.

Yes it is silly because the functioning is happening right now without a separate self. There is nothing here to disappear. It is the recognition of what is already the case.

Now, I invite you to observe the daily activities. Be curious of what is going on during washing clothes or whatever it is going on. Keep in mind a question : is there a me doing it? If so, where is it? Just look like you looked at the sky and have seen its color.

Best for you

[Aletheia]

Morning,

When a fear is there, welcome it and thank it to be here. Look at the sensation and tell me what is behind it.

I really resonate with this compassionate approach. To answer your question, I feel that behind the fear is a belief in a loss of control, as if everything will become chaotic and I/this body will die. There is also a sense of grief, if that makes sense? As in, if it’s true that the self doesn’t exist, then it’s like mourning for something that was never there. I don’t know if this is a strange response. I suppose I have put so much work and effort and striving into trying my best to protect, heal, and take care of this ‘me’ for many, many years, that if it doesn’t exist, there is a sadness that arises.

Everything else you say I will continue to keep in mind and ask “is there a me doing it?” I will report back later.

Thank you Warissem! 🌅