an occurrence of the hole removed from the donut

[mpaul3]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the sense of 'me' as a separate individual with free will is not true.

What are you looking for at LU?
Guidance securing release from the insistent sense of 'me'. A recent occurrence leads me to suspect that this heart-mind-body is ready to have the 'me' removed for good. And, if not, to continue softening the hard nut of 'me' until it disappears.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Not much. But, ideally, complete release from the tyranny of the 'me'. Help in grounding into the open 'me-less' space of connection and non-separation. Finding a toehold in the understanding that this sense of self really isn't true.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I began Transcendental Meditation (TM) as a college freshman in 1972. That was my 'spiritual' life for 25 years attending years-worth of retreats, learning the advanced techniques, becoming a TM Teacher, and working within the TM Movement. I sought to win the prize of Enlightenment. I left the TM Movement in the late 1990s. From 1998 into 2002 I traveled to India several times and spent several months sitting in satsang with Ramesh Balsekar. I gained a good intellectual understanding of the non-dual perspective. I took up the irregular practice of self-inquiry as taught to me by Ramesh as "who is this me?". I've had glimpses of the open and connected space when the 'me' disappears. For the past 6 years I've been sitting daily zazen as a member of the Mountain Cloud Zen Center. Recently I had a very clear experience of 'me' dissolving. The image that came to mind was that my life had been a donut without a hole, and then something was removed, little 'me', and now there is an open space in the center (and everywhere) in this life. This non-experience experience has been with me to greater and lesser degrees since then.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Bluejay]

Hi,

I'm Henri. What would you like me to call you?

Welcome to the forum. I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

If yes, then we can start with some guidelines (you may already be familiar with most of this, but just in case):

1. Post at least once every 24 to 48 hours. I'm not strict about this, but I would prefer it if you posted regularly. If you can't, please let me know.

2. Be 100% honest. There is no judgment here. No answer or question is silly or stupid. Your progress is key.

3. This process is based on direct experience, which means sensation, smell, taste, sight, sound, observed thoughts, and so on. There is no need to rely too much on the mind for answers, so long philosophical and analytical answers are best avoided.

4. Pause any other teachings, rituals, books, and practices you are currently involved in. It is best to put all your effort into this inquiry for as long as it lasts. A meditation practice is fine, but anything else can be a distraction.

5. Technology can be problematic. I recommend you type your answers in a text editor like MS Word or Google Docs, and then copy and paste them into this thread. This way you avoid losing your answer if there's a technical glitch.

6. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to answer each question individually. Here are instructions on how to use the quote function if it is not already clear: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And to start, I'd like to know your expectations. You don't have to use direct experience for this. Just share what comes to mind:

1. How will life change?
2. How will you change?
3. What will be different?
4. What is missing?

Enjoy! :)

[mpaul3]

Hi Henri, thank you for offering your guidance. I'm Mark. I am currently on a one week sesshin (Zen meditation retreat), finishing up on Sunday. If you don't mind, I'll wait until the retreat is over to begin our dialogue?

[Bluejay]

No problem. Let me know when you're ready :)

[Bluejay]

Hi Mark,

I'll leave this exercise here. Respond to it when you're ready to start.

Socks Exercise

There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience).

For example: If I ask you what color your socks are, you can answer in two ways:

- You can think and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

- Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are.

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

[mpaul3]

Direct Experience is:
Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Hi Henri, I am quite clear about this distinction. My socks are gray and they are soft to the touch, I just checked.

Responses to your initial questions about engaging in this process with you:

1. How will life change?

I expect that my life will continue to change as it does from moment to moment following the trajectory of this heart-mind-body. Based on my 'experiences' of 'me' disappearing I hope the open freedom of those experiences might become the all-time lived quality of life.

2. How will you change?

I suppose that if the sense of a separate me is eradicated a sense of freedom from that mistake would ensue.

3. What will be different?

Based on the tastes I've had of "me" disappearing, nothing is really different, but life became unencumbered by something unreal.

4. What is missing?

I don't think anything is missing, but there is something occluding the natural wholeness of life.

[Bluejay]

Thanks Mark!

Your expectations seem very reasonable.

Based on the tastes I've had of "me" disappearing, nothing is really different, but life became unencumbered by something unreal.

Yup, "me" is a belief and dropping it may not be any different than realizing there's no tooth fairy out there with a big tooth collection.

Let's continue then:

(These first exercises may be very easy for you. If that's the case, just see them as repetition.)

Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that you can do a few times during the day. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply = image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list like the one above.

[mpaul3]

– Seeing weeds, simply = image/color
– Pulling weeds, simply = sensation
– Walking on gravel, simply = sensation
– Drinking cold water mixed with lemonade, simply = sensation/taste
– Thinking about making airline reservations, simply = thought
Breathing hard walking uphill, simply = sensation
Eating buttered toast with jam, simply = tasting
Drinking hot black tea with milk, simply = tasting/sensation
– Hiking the Arroyo Hondo Trail, feeling feet in shoes press against earth, simply = sensation
– Hiking the Arroyo Hondo Trail, watching my shadow move ahead of me, simply = seeing
– Hiking the Arroyo Hondo Trail, hearing ravens cawing, simply = hearing
– Hiking the Arroyo Hondo Trail, hearing distant traffic, simply = hearing
– Hiking the Arroyo Hondo Trail, smelling junipers in the breeze, simply = smelling
– Hiking the Arroyo Hondo Trail, breathing hard feeling air in my mouth, simply = sensation
– Hiking the Arroyo Hondo Trail, balancing on a small boulder, simply = sensation
– Hiking the Arroyo Hondo Trail, planning to do things today, simply = thoughts
– Hiking the Arroyo Hondo Trail, noticing two red berries, simply = seeing
– Taking a plunge in ice cold water, simply = sensation
– Noticing my reflection in the iPhone, simply = seeing
– Sitting in meditation, pressure of my butt and legs on the cushion, simply = sensation
– Sitting in meditation, blurry image of the blank wall in front of me, simply = seeing
– Sitting in meditation, noticing air passing into my nostrils, simply = sensation
– Sitting in meditation, ruminating, simply = thoughts
– Sitting in meditation, feeling antsy for sit to end, simply = thoughts
– Sitting in meditation, faint perfume of incense, simply = smelling
– Sitting in meditation, sounds of distant traffic and birdsong, simply = hearing

[Bluejay]

Good stuff, Mark!

Here's the next one:

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what do they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts about something, because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought about ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk about can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

- Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
- Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Enjoy and let me know what you find out :)

[mpaul3]

We recently planted a couple of apple trees in our yard. I’ve been watching one apple in particular as it has grown. It changes from day to day, enlarging, gaining a bit of red blush on its green skin. As someone who has practiced and taught photography I tend to experience things as visual phenomena. How does the form of the apple reflect light? How does the form change as the light changes from moment to moment? How is light experienced as it reflects from the smooth surface as color? In some sense, the name “apple” is superficial to the experience of looking/seeing/watching the green ball growing on the tree (which can also be experienced as a dynamic living form). Wrapping my hands around this fruit it is firm, smooth, warm. That I refer to it as an “apple” is only a custom of shared language. That it is an ever-changing object from moment to moment as sunlight filters through breeze-blown leaves seems like a kind of fundamental is-ness.

[Bluejay]

We recently planted a couple of apple trees in our yard. I’ve been watching one apple in particular as it has grown. It changes from day to day, enlarging, gaining a bit of red blush on its green skin. As someone who has practiced and taught photography I tend to experience things as visual phenomena. How does the form of the apple reflect light? How does the form change as the light changes from moment to moment? How is light experienced as it reflects from the smooth surface as color? In some sense, the name “apple” is superficial to the experience of looking/seeing/watching the green ball growing on the tree (which can also be experienced as a dynamic living form). Wrapping my hands around this fruit it is firm, smooth, warm. That I refer to it as an “apple” is only a custom of shared language. That it is an ever-changing object from moment to moment as sunlight filters through breeze-blown leaves seems like a kind of fundamental is-ness.

This was very nicely written.

However, in this case it is an impediment to this inquiry. Here are a few questions that may help clarify what I mean:

What is the experience of a smooth surface in direct experience?

Does an apple actually exist?

How is fundamental is-ness experienced? Is it a thing?

Use direct experience to answer the above questions. Do not go into thinking and concepts.

[mpaul3]

Hi Henri, thank you for the re-direct.

What is the experience of a smooth surface in direct experience?

Feeling the smoothness of the apple, simply = sensation

Does an apple actually exist?

I directly experience image/color, volume, warmth, smoothness. "Apple" exists as a post-sensation construct.

How is fundamental is-ness experienced? Is it a thing?

There is no fundamental is-ness, that is also a post-sensation construct.

[Bluejay]

Thanks for the answers!

I directly experience image/color, volume, warmth, smoothness. "Apple" exists as a post-sensation construct.

A few more clarifications:

You said that smoothness is sensation in direct experience, but here you include it in direct experience?

What is warmth in direct experience?

And what is volume?

[mpaul3]

You said that smoothness is sensation in direct experience, but here you include it in direct experience?

What is warmth in direct experience?

And what is volume?

I held the apple in my hands and felt smoothness, warmth, and a sense of the object's volume, these all seem to be sensations of direct experience. Am I missing something?

[Bluejay]

I held the apple in my hands and felt smoothness, warmth, and a sense of the object's volume, these all seem to be sensations of direct experience. Am I missing something?

For example, let's take volume, do you feel volume, or do you simply feel sensations and then thought overlays an image of size/volume and so on?

Close your eyes and hold the apple. How do you know the volume?