I|know|no|thing

[Sabestian]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I could as well be writing about Santa. I could be repeating what I was thought or what I heard. But let's see. A self is an illusion, just the "SELF perpetuating thoughts". This one is good, you have got to admit.

What are you looking for at LU?
Not sure? Doesn't seem like I would be looking for anything. I would like some interaction on different than everyday level perhaps? It is sometimes very nice to hear something from outside your head.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I do not know exactly what a guided conversation is. But same as above - keep my mind from getting stuck in mental constructs and run around in circles, maybe? Apart from that - not much, to be perfectly honest.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
long term trans-personal experiences and following seeking, some Zen, some meditiation, lots of thinking, reading, listening and feeling. That is all gone now apart from reading. BTW the question below makes no sense to me, so I marked the "golden mean".

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
8

[Bluejay]

Hi Sabestian,

I'm Henri.

Welcome to the forum. I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

If yes, then we can start...

If you haven't already, please read the disclaimer here: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

And then have a look at what Liberation Unleashed is not in the FAQ: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some guidelines (you may already be familiar with most of this, but just in case):

1. Post at least once every 24 to 48 hours. I'm not strict about this, but I would prefer it if you posted regularly. If you can't, please let me know.

2. Be 100% honest. There is no judgment here. No answer or question is silly or stupid. Your progress is key.

3. This process is based on direct experience, which means sensation, smell, taste, sight, sound, observed thoughts, and so on. There is no need to rely too much on the mind for answers, so long philosophical and analytical answers are best avoided.

4. Pause any other teachings, rituals, books, and practices you are currently involved in. It is best to put all your effort into this inquiry for as long as it lasts. A meditation practice is fine, but anything else can be a distraction.

5. Technology can be problematic. I recommend you type your answers in a text editor like MS Word or Google Docs, and then copy and paste them into this thread. This way you avoid losing your answer if there's a technical glitch.

6. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to answer each question individually. Here are instructions on how to use the quote function if it is not already clear: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And to start, I'd like to know your expectations. You don't have to use direct experience for this. Just share what comes to mind:

1. How will life change?
2. How will you change?
3. What will be different?
4. What is missing?

Enjoy! :)

[Sabestian]

Hello Henri
Thank you for your guidance. I am trying to answer from the top of my head, without much thought. But I struggle with the concept of past and future, so I really have problems with the questions. Also, you're referring to some kind of change that is supposed to happen in that future. And here I am lost again. What change? What difference?

1. How will life change?

Life will not change. Future is a concept conceived by "me". It does not exist. Life is whatever is.

2. How will you change?

"I" is a self perpetuating thought construct which is the answer or reaction to whatever appears. How could "I" know, how will "I" look like in the future that is not there? So - no clue.

3. What will be different?

If we insist that future exists or will exist then the answer must be: I don't know. When would it be different? Different to what? But as above - there is only now.

4. What is missing?

Nothing is missing. There is everything that is. The whole. Nothing ever could be missing. Missing from what? From everything? Or from some kind of expectation or imagination?
If I stretch it, and we assume the perspective of a thought that appears often, than I can say that intensity of emotions is missing. Perhaps. Or maybe some kind of understanding from others. But I feel like I am hallucinating now when writing these.

[Bluejay]

Thank you, Sabestian!

What kind of understanding from others are you looking for?

What are you responsible for?

How are decisions made?

[Sabestian]

What kind of understanding from others are you looking for?

Very few people around me can understand how I understand what is. This affects relations. They think I am a bit nuts. Sometimes it's better to not speak freely.

What are you responsible for?

On certain level "I" am responsible for me, my family and my surroundings, my work. But this is like convention, a contract. I do whatever is needed but I do not control the outcome of these actions, the results don't belong to me.

How are decisions made?

They happen. Sometimes as a result of process thinking, sometimes not. I tend to think about it this way: "I" let the decision happen. "I" let it happen.

[Bluejay]

Very few people around me can understand how I understand what is. This affects relations. They think I am a bit nuts. Sometimes it's better to not speak freely.

Yes, this path can feel lonely. Totally understand that.

To get started, I like to lay the foundation with a few very simple exercises.

Are you familiar with direct experience vs. thought content?

Socks Exercise

There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience).

For example: If I ask you what color your socks are, you can answer in two ways:

- You can think and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

- Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are.

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

[Sabestian]

Very few people around me can understand how I understand what is. This affects relations. They think I am a bit nuts. Sometimes it's better to not speak freely.

Yes, this path can feel lonely. Totally understand that.

Not as much lonely, as dry and boring. Kind of. I don't get a "loneliness" vibe about this feeling.

There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience).

Yes, I am fully aware of the difference. I have been questioning my "knowings" all my life. While doing so I came to understanding that there is a level on which I will never be able to differentiate fully between knowing and seeing. Sometimes I see my knowing or seeing, but sometimes I still catch myself knowing my knowing or knowing my seeing. Never ending progress, I am in peace with this.

[Bluejay]

Yes, I am fully aware of the difference. I have been questioning my "knowings" all my life. While doing so I came to understanding that there is a level on which I will never be able to differentiate fully between knowing and seeing. Sometimes I see my knowing or seeing, but sometimes I still catch myself knowing my knowing or knowing my seeing. Never ending progress, I am in peace with this.

Okay, good.

Here's the next pointer:

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what do they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts about something, because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought about ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk about can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

- Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
- Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Enjoy and let me know what you find out :)

[Sabestian]

My view is that the apple in this exercise is a trigger for a cascade of thoughts. Starting from sensations that are immediately hijacked by thoughts to memories and expectations as to the taste for example.

All the above are workings of a biological interface of my body and mind needed to interpret and handle "reality". I see these sensory experiences as something needed for my body to collaborate with other objects. If there is a certain set of sensory inputs that resembles pre-programmed mental construct known as "apple" that this is the label the mind sticks to it.

It requires conscious effort to stop at the sensory experience and hold the thought process. Then I can fully appreciate separate sensations of the smoothness of the surface, it's coldness and hardness. All these are not "apple" any more. Just certain sensations, as they are.

[Bluejay]

Thanks Sabestian.

I have one request: Could you talk to me like I'm 7 years old? What I mean by that is to simplify your language, and use direct experience to describe what's going on.

For example:

All the above are workings of a biological interface of my body and mind needed to interpret and handle "reality". I see these sensory experiences as something needed for my body to collaborate with other objects. If there is a certain set of sensory inputs that resembles pre-programmed mental construct known as "apple" that this is the label the mind sticks to it.

While this explanation is great, it is not needed for this inquiry. It is also a lot of thinking/concepts.

Does this make sense?

So when you say: "All the above are workings of a biological interface of my body and mind needed to interpret and handle "reality"."

This all may be true, but almost none of this is direct experience.

It requires conscious effort to stop at the sensory experience and hold the thought process. Then I can fully appreciate separate sensations of the smoothness of the surface, it's coldness and hardness. All these are not "apple" any more. Just certain sensations, as they are.

Is smoothness direct experience or a label/thought?

And just to clarify, you said there is no apple, only sensations. When an 'apple' is looked at, what is seen?

[Sabestian]

Thanks Sabestian.

I have one request: Could you talk to me like I'm 7 years old? What I mean by that is to simplify your language, and use direct experience to describe what's going on.

I will try :) I am not used to using simple language.

While this explanation is great, it is not needed for this inquiry. It is also a lot of thinking/concepts.

Yes, I totally agree. When I try to explain anything, my analytic brain takes control.

So when you say: "All the above are workings of a biological interface of my body and mind needed to interpret and handle "reality"."

This all may be true, but almost none of this is direct experience.

This is my exact point when I say that mind hijacks sensations and builds thoughts on them.

It requires conscious effort to stop at the sensory experience and hold the thought process. Then I can fully appreciate separate sensations of the smoothness of the surface, it's coldness and hardness. All these are not "apple" any more. Just certain sensations, as they are.

Is smoothness direct experience or a label/thought?

And just to clarify, you said there is no apple, only sensations. When an 'apple' is looked at, what is seen?
[/quote]

I see colors, shapes, light intensity, lack of movement. And then I see thoughts building upon these. And I see the awareness of these thoughts. And another layer of awareness of awareness ;) etc.

The apple itself is not there in this process at all :D

[Sabestian]

Thanks Sabestian.

I have one request: Could you talk to me like I'm 7 years old? What I mean by that is to simplify your language, and use direct experience to describe what's going on.

I will try :) I am not used to using simple language.

While this explanation is great, it is not needed for this inquiry. It is also a lot of thinking/concepts.

Yes, I totally agree. When I try to explain anything, my analytic brain takes control.

So when you say: "All the above are workings of a biological interface of my body and mind needed to interpret and handle "reality"."

This all may be true, but almost none of this is direct experience.

This is my exact point when I say that mind hijacks sensations and builds thoughts on them.

It requires conscious effort to stop at the sensory experience and hold the thought process. Then I can fully appreciate separate sensations of the smoothness of the surface, it's coldness and hardness. All these are not "apple" any more. Just certain sensations, as they are.

Is smoothness direct experience or a label/thought?

And just to clarify, you said there is no apple, only sensations. When an 'apple' is looked at, what is seen?

Smoothness, lack of movement are thoughts already. Interpretations, expectations.

I see colors, shapes, light intensity. And then I see thoughts building upon these. And I see the awareness of these thoughts. And another layer of awareness of awareness ;) etc.

The apple itself is not there in this process at all :D

[Bluejay]

I will try :) I am not used to using simple language.

Excellent :) That is all I ask.

When I try to explain anything, my analytic brain takes control.

It's very good that you are aware of this.

Smoothness, lack of movement are thoughts already. Interpretations, expectations.

I see colors, shapes, light intensity. And then I see thoughts building upon these. And I see the awareness of these thoughts. And another layer of awareness of awareness ;) etc.

The apple itself is not there in this process at all :D

Yes good.

Do you see that shape is also an interpretation?

[Sabestian]

Do you see that shape is also an interpretation?

Yes, to be honest, I see everything as an interpretation. Color as well. What is red? Whatever I learned to call red.
This is actually my mind's problem that it struggles with. There is nothing solid and knowable. There is no truth and reality. Everything can be dismantled. I see this mind's problem as the limitation of the mind itself. It needs certain points of reference to operate comparatively. In simple language - it can only work if it can judge something against something else.

[Bluejay]

Yes, to be honest, I see everything as an interpretation. Color as well. What is red? Whatever I learned to call red.
This is actually my mind's problem that it struggles with. There is nothing solid and knowable. There is no truth and reality. Everything can be dismantled. I see this mind's problem as the limitation of the mind itself. It needs certain points of reference to operate comparatively. In simple language - it can only work if it can judge something against something else.

Yes, in a way everything is an interpretation. But we need to use some interpretations and concepts for this inquiry. However, we don't want to use more than we have to.

For example, there is a difference between color (seeing different colors when you look) compared to red (learned label).

Below is the next pointer. In this one, you know that the mind labels experience, but what I want you to do is feel what happens.

Mind Labeling

Here is an exercise which examines how the mind labels experience. This takes about 20 minutes and you will need pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 2 x 10 minute parts. For each 10 minute part pay attention to any bodily sensation (is there any tightening, or any relaxing?)

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

- I am sitting on a chair
- I am hearing a clock ticking
- I am looking at a computer screen
- I am feeling hungry

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the second ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”.

Describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

- Sitting on a chair
- Typing
- Breathing
- Blinking
- Hearing the clock
- Hunger

(Watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Enjoy! :)