Finding nothing

[IngoD]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
What I've heard about it is this: The "I" is nothing more than a thought. Consciousness that has identified with itself and now believes it is a "who". I would like to be able to perceive reality and recognize myself for what I really am.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for help to see myself for who I really am. I am interested in the truth, want to see through the deception and finally EXPERIENCE being one with everything. The "knowledge/belief" read/heard over the many years is worthless and doesn't help me to FEEL the truth. Only what I EXPERIENCE is truth, not what I believe. To believe is just thinking again. Thinking is not perceiving. The solution must be simple. Immediately accessible here and now. Knowing myself cannot take place in the future as it is not real. The solution must be right under my nose, but something is preventing me from seeing it. What is that? The deception? The illusion that I am an "I"? So just a few thoughts, beliefs, experiences? How can I leave them behind and perceive what IS REAL?

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
My wife always says: Don't expect anything. This way you don't make yourself and your happiness dependent on others. To be honest, as of now I'm not expecting anything. Can't expect anything either. What do I wish for? Support. assistance. Also a kick in the ass. I appreciate openness, directness, honesty. Can i dream? My guide helps me to experience oneness.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I meditate every day for 45 minutes (although without "success"). Have lived spirituality (sometimes more, sometimes less) for 25 years. Read countless books and watched YT videos. I have very lively exchanges with my beloved wife, who lives an extraordinarily good life. We talk very often about our spiritual development. Mentally, I'm almost 24/7 in finding the truth.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Bluejay]

Hi,

I'm Henri (What would you like me to call you?)

Welcome to the forum. I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

If yes, then we can start...

If you haven't already, please read the disclaimer here: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

And then have a look at what Liberation Unleashed is not in the FAQ: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some guidelines (you may already be familiar with most of this, but just in case):

1. Post at least once every 24 to 48 hours. I'm not strict about this, but I would prefer it if you posted regularly. If you can't, please let me know.

2. Be 100% honest. There is no judgment here. No answer or question is silly or stupid. Your progress is key.

3. This process is based on direct experience, which means sensation, smell, taste, sight, sound, observed thoughts, and so on. There is no need to rely too much on the mind for answers, so long philosophical and analytical answers are best avoided.

4. Pause any other teachings, rituals, books, and practices you are currently involved in. It is best to put all your effort into this inquiry for as long as it lasts. A meditation practice is fine, but anything else can be a distraction.

5. Technology can be problematic. I recommend you type your answers in a text editor like MS Word or Google Docs, and then copy and paste them into this thread. This way you avoid losing your answer if there's a technical glitch.

6. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to answer each question individually. Here are instructions on how to use the quote function if it is not already clear: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And to start, I'd like to know your expectations. You don't have to use direct experience for this. Just share what comes to mind:

1. How will life change?
2. How will you change?
3. What will be different?
4. What is missing?
5. If you never see that there's no inherent self, what will happen / what won't happen?

Enjoy! :)

[IngoD]

Hi Henri,

I am extremely happy and excited you will be my guide! Thank you so much for your time and help in advance!

First of all I have to say I am german and my english is bad. Sometimes I have to translate your words into my language. So may I beg you to use simple words? That would help a lot. And please forgive me in advance if I don't immediately understand and need to follow up on your questions.

I red the disclaimer, FAQ and your personal guidelines. Also I am reading the german version of the Enlightening Quotes right now, which are really interesting.

Now to your questions:

1. How will life change?

My search will stop. The emptiness that comes with not knowing will no longer cause pain. It will be peaceful.

2. How will you change?

I hope that after your guidance I will be able to see with clear eyes. Realizing the truth about self and also that all is one.

3. What will be different?

I will see through the same eyes, but take a different perspective. I will be more balanced. Will no longer resist life.

4. What is missing?

Sometimes I'm afraid that life will become indifferent to me. I'm afraid of losing the meaning of life. How will God see me when my self and my quest for improvement are lost?

5. If you never see that there's no inherent self, what will happen / what won't happen?

Then I will have to keep searching for the truth. My life is already full of abundance and happiness. I have everything a person needs to be happy. Maybe I'll just be happy the way it is right now?

Once more: Thank you so much for taking time. I appreciate that A LOT!

Love,
Ingo (this is how I want to be called)

[Bluejay]

First of all I have to say I am german and my english is bad. Sometimes I have to translate your words into my language. So may I beg you to use simple words? That would help a lot. And please forgive me in advance if I don't immediately understand and need to follow up on your questions.

No problem, Ingo. Feel free to ask questions if something is unclear :)

My search will stop. The emptiness that comes with not knowing will no longer cause pain. It will be peaceful.

There will still be pain, but there will be no one claiming that pain.

And remember, seeing through the self illusion is the beginning of the path.

Realizing the truth about self and also that all is one.

This may or may not happen. It usually doesn't when seeing through the self illusion. All we are looking for here is who is the controller, agent, witness, doer of life.

This is more about sobering up than of having an experience of oneness.

I will see through the same eyes, but take a different perspective. I will be more balanced. Will no longer resist life.

Yes, this is realistic.

Sometimes I'm afraid that life will become indifferent to me. I'm afraid of losing the meaning of life. How will God see me when my self and my quest for improvement are lost?

Thank you for being honest and open here.

Since the self is an illusion, you could say that God is everything, and there is no Ingo making choices, there is just Life arising or God happening.

Then I will have to keep searching for the truth. My life is already full of abundance and happiness. I have everything a person needs to be happy. Maybe I'll just be happy the way it is right now?

Once more: Thank you so much for taking time. I appreciate that A LOT!

Excellent. I am happy to help :)

I like to begin by laying the foundation and make sure we are on the same page.

So here is the first pointer:

Socks Exercise

There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience).

For example: If I ask you what color your socks are, you can answer in two ways:

- You can think and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

- Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are.

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this.

[IngoD]

Thanks a lot for your very fast response and your statements to my answers, Henri.

There will still be pain, but there will be no one claiming that pain.

I know. I don't expect a life without pain.

All we are looking for here is who is the controller, agent, witness, doer of life.

I have heard about not being the controller of „my“ life. Heard about there is no free will. Right now I am in a state, I don't know what is wrong and what is right. Sometimes I think, life is happening without my choices. It just happens. Sometimes I think I am definitely the controller/doer of „my“ life. Could be hard work for you... ;-)

Since the self is an illusion, you could say that God is everything, and there is no Ingo making choices, there is just Life arising or God happening.

This topic could become a real stumbling block on my way to not-me. All my life I try to be a good person so that God will consider me worthy. It could be difficult for me to let go of this thought. I'm just saying. ;-)

Please let me know if you are clear about this.

Absolutely. And I've already read about that on this page and tried the following exercise:
I sat down and named each sensation with just one word.

I heard a bird sing and I thought: LISTEN.
I felt a tension in my back and thought: FEEL.
I tasted the taste of my tea and thought: TASTE.
I saw my daughter walk by and I thought LOOK.

Did I understand and do that correctly?

What I noticed was that my mind was getting still. I practically didn't think anything during the exercise. When a thought came, I thought: THOUGHT. And then the thought and the story behind it disappeared.

Sorry if I'm ahead of the game, but I've read a bit here.

[Bluejay]

I know. I don't expect a life without pain.

Good. I always make sure, so expect questions like this. It's better to catch any potential pitfalls early :)

I have heard about not being the controller of „my“ life. Heard about there is no free will. Right now I am in a state, I don't know what is wrong and what is right. Sometimes I think, life is happening without my choices. It just happens. Sometimes I think I am definitely the controller/doer of „my“ life. Could be hard work for you... ;-)

This is good. It means there is openness. Oh, it's not hard work at all. The fingers type, and there is enjoyment.

This topic could become a real stumbling block on my way to not-me. All my life I try to be a good person so that God will consider me worthy. It could be difficult for me to let go of this thought. I'm just saying. ;-)

We will see how it goes. The good news is that you are not in charge of letting it go. The thought could even be there in the future, but there is no attachment to it.

I heard a bird sing and I thought: LISTEN.
I felt a tension in my back and thought: FEEL.
I tasted the taste of my tea and thought: TASTE.
I saw my daughter walk by and I thought LOOK.

Did I understand and do that correctly?

What I noticed was that my mind was getting still. I practically didn't think anything during the exercise. When a thought came, I thought: THOUGHT. And then the thought and the story behind it disappeared.

Sorry if I'm ahead of the game, but I've read a bit here.

This is fine with me. Most of this is good.

Let's do this next pointer:

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what do they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts about something, because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought about ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk about can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

- Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
- Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Enjoy and let me know what you find out :)

[IngoD]

Oh, it's not hard work at all. The fingers type, and there is enjoyment.

Awesome to hear!!!

However, is an apple actually known?

Ok, let's see. If I had never seen an apple before in my life, I would be able to say the following things about this "thing" for sure:

It has the color red.
It's so big, so heavy.
It smells like this.
It tastes like this when I bite into it.
The skin feels like this.
It doesn't make any noise.
I think there's a "thing" I don't know.

In this way I can actually perceive the apple with my senses.

If I already know an apple, I may remember its size, color, shape, taste, smell, my past judgments about that apple, and feel like I'm sensing the apple without actually sensing it. And I know immediately, that's an apple. But that would then only be thoughts and no real perception (apart from seeing the apple).

Did I get you right?

[Bluejay]

It has the color red.
It's so big, so heavy.
It smells like this.
It tastes like this when I bite into it.
The skin feels like this.
It doesn't make any noise.
I think there's a "thing" I don't know.

Good looking.

Some questions to make sure:

- Does the color red exist in direct experience?

- Does big exist?

- If you close your eyes and touch an apple, what is the only thing that is there?

- When you look at the apple on the screen in my post, does an apple exist without going into thoughts?

[IngoD]

No. The color "red" is just a thought. "Big" doesn't exist without a "small". It's a label. Same as "red".

When I close my eyes, there is something in my hand. Is it an apple? I don't know?

No. The apple in your post doesn't exist.

[Bluejay]

No. The color "red" is just a thought. "Big" doesn't exist without a "small". It's a label. Same as "red".

No. The apple in your post doesn't exist.

Good. Yes, the apple is a label, a thought.

I am asking these follow-up questions because precision is very important.

When I close my eyes, there is something in my hand. Is it an apple? I don't know?

Without going into thought, what is the only thing you know for sure in direct experience?

Here's a list with clues (it's one of these):

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

[IngoD]

Now I got it: Feeling.

[Bluejay]

Now I got it: Feeling.

Yes, perfect. The word we would use in English is sensation, but feeling is OK too.

Now let's do the next one.

One thing before you proceed: Since you are already familiar with many of these exercises, your mind can start doing the exercises and say "I know this, there's no me."

So do your best to look with fresh eyes each time, in each exercise, with curiosity.

Explore ‘Sense of Self'

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there.

You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this sense of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by feeling it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

[IngoD]

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

No. There is no location, it has no shape, nor it has a size. I don't think the self communicates. But sometimes I have the feeling, it forces to do this or that. Reminds of certain things. „Be a good boy!“ (for example). But in fact, I CAN NOT HEAR IT! The sense of self could have some characteristics: Be honest, be good, be loyal... But I am not able to EXPERIENCE those characteristics. I THINK they are there... The conclusion is: The self must be a thought!?

[Bluejay]

No. There is no location, it has no shape, nor it has a size. I don't think the self communicates. But sometimes I have the feeling, it forces to do this or that. Reminds of certain things. „Be a good boy!“ (for example). But in fact, I CAN NOT HEAR IT! The sense of self could have some characteristics: Be honest, be good, be loyal... But I am not able to EXPERIENCE those characteristics. I THINK they are there... The conclusion is: The self must be a thought!?

In the future, could you answer each question separately? So quote question 1, then answer, then quote question 2, then answer, and so on. That would be great :)

Yes, the self is a thought.

Can you find it anywhere else?

And if the sense of self is a thought, can it have characteristics? Can a thought have characteristics? Can a thought be honest, good, loyal? Or are those simply more thoughts labeling the previous thought?

You say that the sense of self has no location, but you feel like you still are a self, correct? Otherwise you wouldn't be on Liberation Unleashed.

[IngoD]

In the future, could you answer each question separately? So quote question 1, then answer, then quote question 2, then answer, and so on. That would be great :)

Sorry. I will do so!

Can you find it anywhere else?

No.

And if the sense of self is a thought, can it have characteristics? Can a thought have characteristics? Can a thought be honest, good, loyal? Or are those simply more thoughts labeling the previous thought?

No. A thought is a thought. Nothing more.

You say that the sense of self has no location, but you feel like you still are a self, correct? Otherwise you wouldn't be on Liberation Unleashed.

Yes. I feel separated from others. I feel an "I" and a "you". But I feel also that the self gets a little weaker. ;-)