END OF SEEKING

[Bonan]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand intellectually that when people say self mean a concept of the mind , a memory which is a thought. A thought is just a thought not the content of thought like when you see a photograph in reality you see the frame not the actual people inside the photograph. But I don't feel a radical shift in identity and in the way I face my life.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for someone who is out of the subjective experience of Angelos to guide him see possible illusions that he overlooks or denies. Specifically I would like to clarify in which ways I make this process more complex. Also, one sticky point that I have is that I am confused how I will apply these teachings practically in my life.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
"I" expect for the guider to have realised the traps of the journey of no self and help me avoid them. "I" would like to try something guided for the first time. "I" expect to help me dissolve a little bit this confusing realm (spirituality,non-duality) for me. "I" know that no one can do the work for me but if all are connected then I can explore my reality (outside theoritacally) for pointers to the Truth.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I am not so experienced in spiritual practices. I use meditation for watching my breath and my sensations and I try to apply self-inquiry.
I read books and I watch videos on Youtube. I have not ever contacted a teacher or meet him/her face to face. All of them are pointing in something simple that is always there . So why I cannot see it since its so simple?

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[poppyseed]

Hi Bonan
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[Bonan]

Hi Rali,

Nice to meet you

My real name is Angelos and you can call me with this name

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.

In this period of my life I am unemployed so I am able to answer every day.

What time zone are in?

Time of Athens, Greece , 1 hour ahead South Africa.

I am ready to start.

[poppyseed]

Hi Angelos

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

Time of Athens, Greece , 1 hour ahead South Africa.

Perfect :)

In this period of my life I am unemployed so I am able to answer every day.

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[Bonan]

Hi Rali ,

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I will be free from the constant overthinking and I will trust the intuitive nature of life. There will be no room for self-doubt as self will be something created from the mind. I will stop to search for the next thing that I expect to give me freedom. I will enjoy the life as a child in combination with the maturity of an adult.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I expect to feel surely that I am awakened without doubts. I expect that my intense confusion adout the life will be on track for resolution or it will end completely and the only thing I will have to do is to deepen the realization of no self. I expect that all my wrong beliefs about life will be presented as a consequence of this realization. I expect to overcome the fear of the death that it is a fear that is chasing me all my life. I expect to create a flow in my life accepting the reality as it is, without blockages and attachments. I expect not to fight with my thoughts and my feelings constantly. I expect to accept the mystery of life without the existential questions torturing me all the time. I expect to be able to find a rest place inside me independently from the external circumstances. I expect to stabilize the connection with my true nature as God or consciousness.

3. What do you want not to happen?

To live all my life without realizing the Truth. It’s a destructive scenario that I want to avoid at any cost. I don’t want all these doubts to remain as it happens now. I don’t want the inquires or the exercises that I will do here to lead me nowhere and to remain in the same situation as before. I don’t want to continue to live in delusions despite my efforts. I don t want to remain trapped and slave of my mind. I don’t want to remain with this feeling that I need something urgently to change my situation.

4. What are you hoping for?

I hope for a clarity of what it is really true. I hope for a better understanding of what limits me in life. I hope for a radical insight which will change my relationship with life. I hope for the feeling that there’s not something wrong with life. I hope for a transcendence of the mind and I hope for a tasting of the source that makes life possible.

5. What is missing?

One thing that I am missing is that I don’t understand the concept of control. If there is no self and control then I understand that we should live randomly without plans. So we are at the mercy of the fate. To let planning happens without being attached to future or the results? Is there planning but no planner? Also, I don’t understand if the realization of no self is the answer for all human problems. I consider that the trauma work is necessary anyway. Otherwise , we speak for spiritual bypassing. But what it is the real value for someone to realize no self? Is there a life of no self a life without values,principles and life purpose (consciously created)?

[poppyseed]

Hi Angelos

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Some of your expectations are somewhat reasonable and others not so much, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT (please acknowledge that you’ve read it -
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041 ). When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside - it is all much simpler and ordinary. Is this OK with you?

One thing that I am missing is that I don’t understand the concept of control. If there is no self and control then I understand that we should live randomly without plans. So we are at the mercy of the fate. To let planning happens without being attached to future or the results? Is there planning but no planner? Also, I don’t understand if the realization of no self is the answer for all human problems. I consider that the trauma work is necessary anyway. Otherwise , we speak for spiritual bypassing. But what it is the real value for someone to realize no self? Is there a life of no self a life without values,principles and life purpose (consciously created)?

Hopefully, you’ll be able to answer these questions yourself, but if you still have them later we can come back to them

Now…
If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Love
Rali

[Bonan]

Hi Rali,

Is this OK with you?

Ok I trust the process

If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

If I look for the I , it seems that there’s an entity inside the body who pulls the air in the lungs. I cannot form this entity in my mind because it has invisible qualities. The same entity (soul,psyche) is behind the eyes. When I touch something I clearly feel the boundaries of the body. So as entity I understand that I am inside these boundaries. Even when I close my eyes I feel my hands, my feets, my cheeks , my back in the chair. So I feel that I am an entity entrenched by the limits of the body. I am not everywhere. I am closed in this location. A good marked area , a separate self………

[poppyseed]

Hi Angelos

Ok I trust the process

Great! Thank you!

If I look for the I , it seems that there’s an entity inside the body who pulls the air in the lungs. I cannot form this entity in my mind because it has invisible qualities. The same entity (soul,psyche) is behind the eyes. When I touch something I clearly feel the boundaries of the body. So as entity I understand that I am inside these boundaries. Even when I close my eyes I feel my hands, my feets, my cheeks , my back in the chair. So I feel that I am an entity entrenched by the limits of the body. I am not everywhere. I am closed in this location. A good marked area , a separate self………

Thank you for your honest answer. We will come back to checking the validity of these beliefs.

Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[Bonan]

Hi Rali,

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

Yes it's clear for me the difference between "I look at something" and " I think about something"

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

OK It's clear

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

At this point I am confused, You said that there' s difference between knowing and looking. Is there a difference between actually knowing and knowing? Looking is actually knowing?

If this is the case the apple is not actually known. It is just a label that arises . The real apple is not there. Only pixels and the thoughts that arise from these pixels. No "apple" can be found in actual experience.

[poppyseed]

Hi Angelos

At this point I am confused, You said that there' s difference between knowing and looking. Is there a difference between actually knowing and knowing? Looking is actually knowing?

Basically I was asking if an ”apple” is actually there. “Known” in this case is synonymous to “recognised”, not "learned". It just shows you how relative labels/words are as their meaning can be different from one person to another, and from one use to another.

If this is the case the apple is not actually known. It is just a label that arises . The real apple is not there. Only pixels and the thoughts that arise from these pixels. No "apple" can be found in actual experience.

Very good! I get what you are saying with “pixels” but as you saw already it’s better if we use the same DE vocabulary – the terms proposed in the definition of what DE is – seeing, hearing, sensing, smelling and thinking (not the content). So in this case “apple” points to thought content ABOUT seeing (colours), tasting (if it’s eaten), sensing (if it’s touched), and smelling, right?

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee's aroma, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Love
Rali

[Bonan]

Hi Rali,

Very good! I get what you are saying with “pixels” but as you saw already it’s better if we use the same DE vocabulary – the terms proposed in the definition of what DE is – seeing, hearing, sensing, smelling and thinking (not the content). So in this case “apple” points to thought content ABOUT seeing (colours), tasting (if it’s eaten), sensing (if it’s touched), and smelling, right?

Ok it's clear

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life

Please see below:

Seeing the flowers outside the window = image/colour (seeing)
Hearing the neighbour's child to cry = sound (hearing)
Sensing the road as I walk = sensation (sensing)
Thought about going to the doctor = thought (thinking)
Sensing the desk as i touch it = sensation (sensing)
Hearing the music in the car = sound (hearing)
Smelling the food in the plate = smell (smelling)
Thought about awakening = thought (thinking)
Tasting the biscuit = taste (tasting)

Angelos

[poppyseed]

Hi Angelos
Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.
How does it feel to see what actually is?

If we can apply the same exercise to "I" in stead of "apple":
So if you look at the 'I/me' , is it actually known?
Yes, sensation labelled as “I” is known, as are the thoughts ABOUT an “I”, but an “I” isn’t actually known. It is a concept…and concepts aren’t an issue, unless they are believed.

Does the label "I" contain an actual I...does it contain an actual person?
Does the label "I" itself, suggest in any way that it is an I?
Does the label "I" know anything about an I?
What does the label "I" point to? In other words, what does the word/label "I" actually refer to?

Let’s explore the main culprit in the delusion of self – thought/thinking– a bit further

For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

Love
Rali

[Bonan]

Hi Rali ,

These questions are mindfuck

How does it feel to see what actually is?

There are the basic sensations independently of the content. The sesnsation is the common ground to all experiences when I am not sleeping.

Does the label "I" contain an actual I...does it contain an actual person?
Does the label "I" itself, suggest in any way that it is an I?
Does the label "I" know anything about an I?
What does the label "I" point to? In other words, what does the word/label "I" actually refer to?

The answer is I don't know because the only thing I can recongnize is sensations and sensations are not a person

In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way?

1)My attention recognises the thought.
2)I touch the brain that does the thinking.
3)No I didn’t do anything to make a particular thought appear . No I couldn’t do anything to make a different thought appear that exact moment . And of course I cannot select to have only pleasant thoughts.
4)No I cannot choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts.
5) Yes if I choose to think an elephant and I can think it. Why I chose the elephant in the first place is the mystery

6) No there’s not a traffic cop . Thoughts come without order. No it cannot be changed. Whatever happened happened with a very specific way
7) Thoughts appear from the mind but where is the mind located I don’ t know. Maybe in the brain. They appear randomly. But in some of them I can find connections.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

A Buddha  A sea  A person  a jewelry  A key

1) No I could not predict the order of their appearance
2) No I didnt know which will de the second or the fourth
3) No it’ s not possible to prevent a thought from appearing . No I cannot stop thinking a thought in the middle. It doesn’t last for a long time . At one moment a new thought comes.
4) Sometimes they take content from previous thoughts but it is not absolute .

I never can say that thoughts are 100% true
When I don’t think what I am I don’t get an answer……..

Angelos

[poppyseed]

Hi Angelos

These questions are mindfuck

That’s the idea :)

The answer is I don't know because the only thing I can recongnize is sensations and sensations are not a person

1)My attention recognises the thought.

OK…
1.What suggest that attention is personal, if there is no entity there (person)? Who/what points the “torch” at things?

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does. Focus on focusing, attention itself.

Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?
What moves attention? Can anything be found that moves attention, or does attention/focus move on its own?
Is thought in control of attention?

2.Can the attention be separated from its object (thought, sensation)? Is there a visible border that demarcates where the thought ends and attention starts? Are there solid thoughts that float around and attention that catches/sees them? Are there solid thoughts or just thinking (verb)? Is it really happening like in language where you have subject/object relationship? Can there be attention without objects? Can there be thoughts without attention? Are there noticing and thinking or just noticing_thinking? Please LOOK, don’t intellectualise, imagine or remember from your previous experience!

2)I touch the brain that does the thinking.

What is a “brain” in DE? Is it something that could be seen, heard… or it is learned about (think “apple” example)? How is it directly seen/known that the brain does the thinking, or is it assumed/learned?

5) Yes if I choose to think an elephant and I can think it. Why I chose the elephant in the first place is the mystery

Exactly! If you didn’t choose to think of a pink elephant, why do you think chose it? Is it because another thought says so?

7) Thoughts appear from the mind but where is the mind located I don’ t know. Maybe in the brain. They appear randomly. But in some of them I can find connections.

What is a “mind” in DE? These are labels that talk about DE but can they be found in DE?
I suppose the analogy with the icons on your computer desktop comes handy. They are used as a visual representation of what is actually a binary code – zeros and ones - so you can make use of them. But is the icon of email really a box with mail in it?

When I don’t think what I am I don’t get an answer……..

So what happens to the “I” when it is thought about?
Love
Rali

[Bonan]

Hi Rali ,

I am stuck on this point

Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?
What moves attention? Can anything be found that moves attention, or does attention/focus move on its own?
Is thought in control of attention?

Yes attention moves by itself but we can practice to keep it at one point. And it's possible for us to do it. We focus on the breath and with this practice we improve our ability to concenrate our attention to one thing. Differently if we couldn't control our attention we couldn't able to function on our daily life. To read a book or to write these words is necessary to keep my attention there.What you suggest is that attenetion control itself? Sorry, I don't get it.