Doubt obscuring clarity

[CJ10]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the self is a collection of thoughts arising in the moment that are believed to be true. This can be seen as the illusion that it is and in doing so awareness can come forward as the real true self, unchanging, complete, whole.

What are you looking for at LU?
The illusion of self was seen as a collection of thoughts arising as a story in the moment, constantly requiring defending, validation and protection. Whole, unchanging awareness was seen as the true self and is still seen this way but with so much doubt the clarity feels obscured.
"Is this correct?"
"This is different to expectation, maybe it's wrong, maybe it hasn't been fully realized".

The doubt feels overwhelming, and the experience feels like switching between "I" and whole awareness. Awareness is easy to return to, but doesn't feel like the constant dominant experience. Should it? I don't know.

I'm looking for clarity and clear seeing, and an end to the doubt of, "Have I seen it, or is this wrong?". Am I seeing what everyone is talking about, or do I just think I see it and I'm missing the real thing?

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
An end to the doubt and to return to the clarity that was experienced when this was first seen. In some ways the seeing has a feeling of being lost, though not completely. I hope for clear, direct pointing. Honest, hopefully daily conversations, wherever that leads. Nothing is off limits, the more direct the better. Any medium the guide prefers is fine.

I have read other conversations on the forum and am familiar with what to expect from a guide as much as that's possible.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
In terms of intellectual knowledge, a few years of watching non duality videos, reading books, Angelo Dilullo, Pernille Damore, Jeff Foster, Adyashanti, Eckhart Tolle etc. Recently reading an ebook by John Wheeler led to the clearest seeing I've experienced.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[CherylVT]

Hi CJ,
(is that what you prefer to be called?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Cheryl, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Also now is a good time to ask you to read through some important links and let me know if you are OK with everything before we get started.

1) The LU Disclaimer http://www.liberationunleashed.com/regi ... sclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do so as well.

What time zone are you in?

I’m in the Eastern time zone of the United States—GMT-5

If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.

Love
Cheryl

[CJ10]

Hi Cheryl,

Thank you for your reply, it's great to meet you! My name is Carla.

1) The LU Disclaimer http://www.liberationunleashed.com/regi ... sclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

I've read these and agree.

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Thank you I've watched this. Hopefully this reply works as intended :-)

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do so as well.

Sounds great, thank you!

What time zone are you in?

Pacific Daylight Time - West Coast of the United States.

If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.

Yes absolutely!

Carla

[CherylVT]

Dear Carla,

Thanks for your prompt response.
I was away for a couple of days, and i failed to check the "Notify me when a reply is posted" box, so i apologize for my tardiness. Let's get started.

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

I write the pointing questions that I want answered in blue to distinguish them from the rest of the text.
You don’t have to use any other color, but please watch the video on quoting (link in my first message) as this will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.

If you see a question in blue please answer it.

And one more thing for today

There is no separate self, never has been and never will be. That there is, is all just a made up story.

What reactions - from none to subtle to strong - come up when you read that statement?


Love,
Cheryl

[CJ10]

Hi Cheryl, not a problem, I'm excited to begin!

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

The suffering, what feels like "the angst of I" will be gone. Things will go on as before, but without the involvement of I. In the past I have experienced a time when it felt like no self, and everything continued as normal but without the constant 'I' thoughts in the background. Things felt so much lighter and more free and the feeling of I as awareness felt so complete that nothing could ever be wrong. I knocked my leg on a chair and there was just leg connecting with chair and a sensation of pain but no 'I' that felt Why me, or This always happens or I'm in pain. There was just sensations being experienced but without the suffering. I think this is where my expectation is at.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I hope to be able to see clearly what I feel I have glimpsed, and to return to the feeling of awareness that felt so free and whole.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I do not want to develop apathy towards my young daughters. For some reason there is a fear of not being able to care anymore.

4. What are you hoping for?

To live and experience the world in a more authentic way that feels aligned with what I intuitively know to be true.

5. What is missing?

Nothing. The opposite appears to be the case. There's a lot here that's not necessary.

There is no separate self, never has been and never will be. That there is, is all just a made up story.

What reactions - from none to subtle to strong - come up when you read that statement?

There's a feeling of energy, a buzzing feeling that encompasses my body when I read this. There's a stillness that arises and I feel very present. There are subtle thoughts around how much this feeling is enjoyed. A memory arises of what it felt like to experience truly seeing this, but now it's intellectual knowledge, not the living experience it was. If that makes sense…

Carla :-)

[CherylVT]

Dear Carla,

Everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary.

You report a beautiful seeing.

I have experienced a time when it felt like no self, and everything continued as normal but without the constant 'I' thoughts

Before you glimpsed this, did you "expect" this seeing and the feelings that went with it?

Expecting the same experience is useless.

A memory arises of what it felt like to experience truly seeing this, but now it's intellectual knowledge, not the living experience it was. If that makes sense…

This makes complete sense. Experience happens, then ego / "I"-thoughts step in to claim the territory. Continue to be alert to this recurring dynamic.

a fear of not being able to care anymore

Fear serves to protect the imaginary self from harm. In this case it protects “you” from changing and losing your ”humanity”. But let’s be clear here… why would the absence of something that has NEVER existed cause a change in existing stuff?

You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realized that Santa is not real (I hope you did :) ), did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?

Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary.

Please let me know what you find.

Love,
Cheryl

[CJ10]

Afternoon Cheryl,

Before you glimpsed this, did you "expect" this seeing and the feelings that went with it?

No, the experience was very different to the expectation I had before it. The experience itself was so ordinary.

…why would the absence of something that has NEVER existed cause a change in existing stuff?

It can't. Everything will always be as it is, regardless.

Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary.

Please let me know what you find.

The fear is a thought arising that seems followed by sensation - tightness in the chest, arms, shoulders. But the thought doesn't point to anything. There's nothing in direct experience it refers to. Thought is protecting thought. Which isn't necessary.

Carla :-)

[CherylVT]

Dear Carla,

Thanks for your responses.

the experience was very different to the expectation I had before it.

Exactly. This is an example of why expectations are useless.

fear is a thought arising that seems followed by sensation - tightness in the chest, arms, shoulders. But the thought doesn't point to anything. There's nothing in direct experience it refers to. Thought is protecting thought. Which isn't necessary.

And when you think about your daughters, what about those fears of not being able to care any more?

What comes up when you read that there is no self, never has been, and never will be?

If you look for the I, what is there?

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

Where exactly did you look?

What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything.

Love,
Cheryl

[CJ10]

Hi Cheryl,

Thank you so much for these questions. I apologize if my answers are a little clunky, I found it difficult to describe the experiences.

And when you think about your daughters, what about those fears of not being able to care any more?

I can't find that fear anymore. I can think the same thoughts but there are no sensations attached to it and the feeling of fear isn't there. There's a feeling of the fear attaching to other thoughts. "This process is taking up my time, away from my daughters" but this time it seems obvious these are just thoughts and thoughts around my daughter's are good ones for grabbing my attention. I can sit with the thoughts and sensations and just allow them and not have them mean anything. Sensations arise - tightness in the chest and shoulders, thoughts about how uncomfortable it feels. But they pass.

What comes up when you read that there is no self, never has been, and never will be?

Feelings of frustration. There are thoughts around "I" should have got this already.

If you look for the I, what is there?

A feeling of familiarity, a part of me that feels unchanging. It's a part that never feels like it ages or is ever any different to what it is now. I sit with this "feeling" and experience thoughts, sounds, sensations. This to me is interpreted as awareness, but there's a sense of ownership. It's "my" awareness.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

Feelings of anger and frustration. There are sensations of tightness in the chest and shoulders and a warm flush of energy through the body. Thoughts come up - "There's something because I'm aware."

Where exactly did you look?

My original answer to this would be in the body senses and "inside me" however when sitting with this it suddenly seemed like there was no "inside me". There was something about "me" that didn't have a location and so when I look (visual field, hearing, sensations in the body) there's no sense of location there's just what's happening. Hearing, touch, smell, even thoughts don't have an attachment to happening "in the body" as before. It feels surprising that sensations in the body like my leg on the chair can be felt as not being located in the body.

What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything.

As I sat with these questions I have noticed there are many feelings of frustration present around 'waking up'. Something I want to do, achieve. I hadn't noticed previously how much that was there.

Carla :-)

[CherylVT]

Dear Carla,

I can think the same thoughts but there are no sensations attached to it and the feeling of fear isn't there.

Congratulations for sticking to Direct Experience.

thoughts around "I" should have got this already.

Sez who?

WHO should have got this already?

How is that even possible?

How can you compare now to a mythical now?

It's "my" awareness.

Describe awareness using DE.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

A feeling of familiarity, a part of me that feels unchanging.

Very precisely, describe this feeling of familiarity in terms of DE.

there's a sense of ownership

We will come back to this in more detail later, but for now What is owned?
Be specific.

"There's something because I'm aware."

Oh yeah? What is that something? Where is the I who is aware?

there was no "inside me".

Very good noticing.

many feelings of frustration present around 'waking up'. Something I want to do, achieve. I hadn't noticed previously how much that was there.

Again, good noticing.

Till soon,
Cheryl

[CJ10]

Dear Cheryl,

Thank you for another day of guidance :-)

Sez who?

It's just a thought.

WHO should have got this already?

The collection of seeing/hearing/smelling/tasting and sensations bound together by thoughts into a "person".

How is that even possible?

It's not. It only seems possible through thoughts and stories.

How can you compare now to a mythical now?

I can't. It seems very obvious when worded like that :-)

Very precisely, describe this feeling of familiarity in terms of DE.

As I sit here, the familiarity is:-
The sensation of the phone in my fingers; the noticing of the sensations before the label "fingers on the phone".
The seeing of the words before they are read.
The sensation of my body against the couch before the thought of body or couch.
It's hearing the sound of the fan without the thought of fan.

It's everything that is noticed. The familiarity is the noticing that's always fundamentally the same.

What is owned?
Be specific.

Nothing. The ownership is just a thought, and the thing that is thought to be owned is experience. "My experience". But sitting in DE without looking into the thought content, nothing is owned and things are just happening. Thoughts can come and are noticed and it's fine. There's no reaction to the thoughts. But listening to a thought about the idea of "me" draws attention back into a separate person sitting on the couch. And "My experience" is back.

The thought of me (or a thought that assumes I) ties together all the elements seen/heard/felt/tasted etc into an experience that is mine, different from yours, and therefore felt to be owned.

What is that something?

It's the thing that's now noticed with no location. There's no location so it has a feeling of being everything. Or encompassing everything perhaps?

Where is the I who is aware?

There doesn't feel a strong sense of location anymore. Thoughts, sensations, seeing, hearing etc doesn't feel attached to a location or body. Like everything is happening separate to the body, or not "in my head" like was previously felt. It only becomes "I" when a thought about me comes up.

Another thing I'm noticing while directly looking with these questions today is how much the analytical part of mind is trying to grab onto what is seen. I can see it trying to make a schematic or fit everything together to make diagram of what reality (best word I could find) looks like.

Carla :-)

[CherylVT]

Dear Carla,

Good work!

The collection of seeing/hearing/smelling/tasting and sensations bound together by thoughts into a "person".

Oh, yeah? Where is the collection?
How can anything be "collected"?

Where is the bound together-ness?
Be specific.

It only seems possible through thoughts and stories.

Bravo!

the familiarity is:-
The sensation of the phone in my fingers; the noticing of the sensations before the label "fingers on the phone".
The seeing of the words before they are read.
The sensation of my body against the couch before the thought of body or couch.
It's hearing the sound of the fan without the thought of fan.

You given 4 excellent examples of DE. But what about each one is familiar?
Familiarity requires comparing this to that. "Oh, i've felt this (compared to the one that happened) before."
But experience is not a series of Xerox copies--this feeling is not like the other one. How do you know a sensation is "familiar"?

The familiarity is the noticing that's always fundamentally the same.

What is the noticing? Stick to DE.
How do you know that it's "always fundamentally the same."?

nothing is owned and things are just happening.

Yes! Sink into this knowing, this realization as often as you can.
Set a random time and "sink in" to this knowing several times a day.

The thought of me (or a thought that assumes I) ties together all the elements seen/heard/felt/tasted etc into an experience that is mine, different from yours, and therefore felt to be owned.

You've seen the mechanism. Keep an eye out for that pesky mechanism, which will lead you down the garden path!

Keep looking,
Cheryl

[CJ10]

Hi Cheryl,

Where is the collection?

The collection is in thought only. The sensations/hearing/smelling/tasting come and go in direct experience and can only be "collected" by thought. Which is also coming and going in direct experience without any doing or control. But the thought isn't collecting it even, it's just a single thought in a moment that says it does. And another thought in another moment says it does again.

How can anything be "collected"?

It can't. The collection is just a thought in this moment and that thought is not chosen.

Where is the bound together-ness?
Be specific.

In thought only. Without the thought things are just happening. The bound together-ness is a single thought in a single moment.

What about each one is familiar?

There's no otherness about each one. I read your reply while eating lunch and as I read this sentence, tasting and the sense of the one tasting were the same for a brief period. Except that implies separation which there wasn't, there was just taste happening.

How do you know a sensation is "familiar"?

I don't think the familiarity is in the sensation, I think it's in the not being separate. Maybe familiar is not the right word. It's more of an "I know you, because we're the same". Except I know there are probably a lot of problems with that statement. Lol.

What is the noticing? Stick to DE.

Noticing is a thought. (???!!!!!)

How do you know that it's "always fundamentally the same."?

I don't. I can't back that up with anything in direct experience. It's actually the opposite, there's no way to know that.

Carla :-)

[CherylVT]

Dear Carla,

Oh, good. You are leaving so many assumptions behind--collection, familiarity, sameness.

Now, let's review Direct Experience.

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise. Google for a picture of an apple.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.
Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.
This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?
Have fun and let me know what you find out.

Love
Cheryl

[CJ10]

Good morning Cheryl,

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

Content of thought cannot be known. Not in the way the taste, color, smell & feel of the apple can be known.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Only color and thought. 'apple' is not here.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No. The taste can, the smell can, the feel can. The appearance of the thought can. But apple can't.

However, is an apple actually known?

No, apple is the content of thought and cannot be known. Color, taste, smell, feel and thought arising can be known.

Have fun and let me know what you find out.

Color, taste, smell & feel of 'apple' are known without requiring thought of 'apple'. These sensations are known as they are and are unchanged by thought content. Thought could say 'pear' and these sensations are still unchanged and unaffected by that thought.


Carla :-)