Trying to find that there is no separate "myself"

[Nobody8]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I do understand that there is no "me" as this "me" is only a thought, a mind, a concept of what I believe is me. Trying to find "me" I see a body, sensations, thoughts, emotions, hearing, smelling, but no real personality. I do understand that there is no "me" intellectually, but in real life I still feel myself as separate from everything else.

What are you looking for at LU?
I really want to get rid of separate "me" and stop identify myself as a mind and body separate from everything else. I know that real me is pure consciousness, life, being, but I want to feel it, not just know it intellectually.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect that my guide will give me right questions and advices where to look to be able to really see that "me" is not real and that everything is connected in life and happens without any control of myself.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
From the age of 18 I started my seeking journey (now I am 46). Most of that time I was reading spiritual books, watching spiritual movies etc. That helped me always watch what my mind was doing in different situations. I can not say that I am able to not over react to different situations, but at least I am able to analyze why "I" - my mind reacted one way or another. Last 2 years I was searching for self realization desperately - I was reading any books I could find, watching all YouTube self realization videos that came to me. One day I found a book "Gateless Gatecrashers" that I found very interesting and promising. Now I am here.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[poppyseed]

Hi Nobody
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[Nobody8]

Hi, Rali,

My name is Vitas. I am glad that you will be my guide and hope you will help me to really see what is real and what is not.
My time zone is GMT+3. Conversation on a daily basis is OK for me. Let's start and thank you for helping me.

Love,
Vitas

[poppyseed]

Hi Vitas
Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

My time zone is GMT+3.

I'm GMT+2. Perfect :)

Conversation on a daily basis is OK for me. Let's start and thank you for helping me.

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[Nobody8]

Hi Rali,

Here I tried to sit and write what came to my mind when answering your questions:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

It is a tough question because I will know that for sure only when I realize that there is no separate me. Now I can only ask my mind and write what it says: my mind says that there should be a shift in perspective; now I see everything happening around me and to me, also that I can control things that are happening. After realizing that there is no separate self I should understand that everything is just happening, going on. Not to me and without any control from my side.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I expect to see life happening as it is, without filtering it through my mind (brain) and giving everything some kind of labels or judgements. Living life as it is now, is living my brain’s life. I want to see everything in real colors. After realization of no separate self there should be less stress and anxiety, I hope.

3. What do you want not to happen?

There are no things that I want not to happen as I realize that what should happen will happen. I can only change my approach to everything that is happening.

4. What are you hoping for?

I hope to be able to calm down in stressful situations. Also, I hope to be able to help others realize that there is no separate self, but first of all I have to realize it myself.

5. What is missing?

The Reality. I do not want to live my life thinking that here it is me and there is world or everything else. It is a lie. I do understand on an intellectual level that there cannot be any separation in the universe, because if we scale out to subatomic level, we can see that there is nothing: no molecules, no atoms, just some kind of energy. So, everyone and everything in the universe is made of the same energy and cannot be separated in any way, but still my mind says, that I am a person that controls something and there is life happening to me.

Love,
Vitas

[poppyseed]

Hi Vitas
Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary.

Now…
If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?


Love
Rali

[Nobody8]

Hi Rali,

Thank you very much for your time and effort helping me to understand that there is no me.
Here are my observations:

If you look for the I, what is there?

When I look for the I, the I can not be found. There is a body, thoughts coming from nowhere and going to nowhere, sensations, feelings, but “I” cannot be found.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

The first thing that comes up is “Yes, I agree with that. Everything is just happening by itself. Thoughts are coming from nowhere; decisions are made somehow.” The only thing that is not so obvious is the witness. Who or how the body can be seen, thoughts, sensations and feelings observed without a witness?

Where exactly did you look?

I can’t say exactly where, but it feels like inside my head right behind the eyes or lower at the chest/heart area. But it is not so clear as when I close the eyes body boundaries disappear or are not so obvious.

What exactly did you find?

I can find a lot of thoughts and feelings coming right after that, especially when these thoughts are about past or future events that are very sensible for “me”. I can look to these thoughts arising like from a distance and just let the go, but when it comes to feelings – it is not so easy. I can feel fear arising, tension in the chest area, quicker breathing. I try to convince my brain that these feelings are the same as thoughts, just coming and going, but it is not so obvious still. I think that these feelings and sensations in the body are very good indicators for where I am on my journey. For what I see and feel now, I still do identify myself with my body, so that means I still see myself as a separate person. On the intellectual level I do understand that there is no me, but in real life it is still here.

Thanks again for "your" time.

Love,
Vitas

[poppyseed]

Hi Vitas
Thank you for your honesty! Your answers give me an idea where to point.
Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.


Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[Nobody8]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for your explanation and clarification.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Yes. Now it is clear.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

An apple is not actually known - it is only a label. So it can’t be found in actual experience. So it is the same with a lot of things that are labelled: a cup (clay in the shape of a cup), school (building, children, books), lake (a lot of water, plants, fish) and so on. Am I understanding this correctly?

Love,
Vitas

[poppyseed]

Hi Vitas

An apple is not actually known - it is only a label. So it can’t be found in actual experience. So it is the same with a lot of things that are labelled: a cup (clay in the shape of a cup), school (building, children, books), lake (a lot of water, plants, fish) and so on. Am I understanding this correctly?

Almost…
"a cup (clay in the shape of a cup)" - a cup is label, clay is also a label
A cup is label/thought content for seeing (colours) and touching/feeling (sensations) (if you’re holding it).

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Love
Rali

[Nobody8]

Hi Rali,

I have looked into daily activities and tried to label them.
Here are some of these activities:

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Eating soup:
Seeing a plate of soup, simply= image/colour (seeing)
Smelling the soup, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the soup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the soup, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing when stirring and taking a spoonful of soup, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about eating the soup, simply = thought (thinking)


Walking in the nature:
Seeing surrounding nature: trees, grass, birds, simply= image/colour (seeing)
Smelling the forest, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the sun, wind on the face, feet touching the ground simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting when drinking water, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing birds singing, wind blowing, lake waves crashing into the shore, simply = sound (hearing)
Thoughts about walking, birds, trees, lake, simply = thought (thinking)


Swimming in the lake:
Seeing water, simply= image/colour (seeing)
Smelling water, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the cold of the water, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the water when it gets into the mouth, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing waves crashing into the shore and water splashes, simply = sound (hearing)
Thoughts about swimming, simply = thought (thinking)

Love,
Vitas

[poppyseed]

Hi Vitas
Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.
How does it feel to see what actually is?

There is a body, thoughts coming from nowhere and going to nowhere, sensations, feelings, but “I” cannot be found.

Let’s start the exploration with “body”

1.Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear
2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.

Love
Rali

[Nobody8]

Hi Rali,
Thank you for your guidance. This time it was not so easy and obvious, so I needed more time to look deep.

How does it feel to see what actually is?

It feels strange and interesting at the same time. To see what actually is I need to focus and look. If not, the mind gets in the way and all the attention goes to thoughts. But at least now there is understanding where to look.

1.Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear

At first, I was sure that cold appeared at the fingers, but then I closed my eyes and looked deeper. Now, it is not so obvious. I am not able to determine the exact place where I feel the cold. It seems like coldness everywhere before mind kicks in and labels it as “cold” and points to the exact place “fingers”.

2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?

No, it cannot be known how tall the body is.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

No, weight and volume are not determined in DE.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No, there is no shape or form. It seems like there is no “body” at all, just sensations.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?

There is no boundary, just one sensation.

Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?

It is not „my“ body. It is just a body.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

When the mind is between pure sensation and perception there is an inside and outside of the body, but when looking with DE there is no inside and outside, just pure sensations. It feels like mix of different sensations flowing one to another.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Label “body” actually refer to pure sensations and the actual experience of the body is only these pure sensations: coldness, warmth, tension, pain etc. Now when writing this, a thought came in: How can anyone determine in DE if it is coldness, warmth or pain? In DE it is just a pure sensation without a label. Labels can be added only with past experience in place. Interesting…

Can the 'body' do things?

That was a tricky one. I had to spend half of the night with it and still not 100% sure. If the “body” in AE is pure sensations, how these can do anything. It seems like everything is happening through the body as the “body” cannot decide what to do and do it.

Love,
Vitas

[poppyseed]

Hi Vitas
Nice looking!!!

At first, I was sure that cold appeared at the fingers, but then I closed my eyes and looked deeper. Now, it is not so obvious. I am not able to determine the exact place where I feel the cold. It seems like coldness everywhere before mind kicks in and labels it as “cold” and points to the exact place “fingers”.

Very good! So is there really “fingers” or are ‘locations’ (body parts) just labels for sensations and colours that appear or not together?

Label “body” actually refer to pure sensations and the actual experience of the body is only these pure sensations: coldness, warmth, tension, pain etc. Now when writing this, a thought came in: How can anyone determine in DE if it is coldness, warmth or pain? In DE it is just a pure sensation without a label. Labels can be added only with past experience in place. Interesting…

Yes!! The actual experience of the body is thought. Thought points to sensation and labels it a ‘body’, but a body cannot be found as actual experience.

Can the 'body' do things?

That was a tricky one. I had to spend half of the night with it and still not 100% sure. If the “body” in AE is pure sensations, how these can do anything. It seems like everything is happening through the body as the “body” cannot decide what to do and do it.

Seems like/feels like = thought content
Nothing in DE is “seems like” or “feels like” – it’s either here or not.
Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

If “body” is a label pointing to sensations and colours, can sensations do anything – can they hear, see, feel, think…? Can seeing (colours) do anything – see, hear, think…?

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen.
Repeat the exercise several times. Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Love
Rali

[Nobody8]

Hi Rali,
Here are my last observations:

So is there really “fingers” or are ‘locations’ (body parts) just labels for sensations and colours that appear or not together?

“Fingers” are only labels for sensation in DE.

If “body” is a label pointing to sensations and colours, can sensations do anything – can they hear, see, feel, think…? Can seeing (colours) do anything – see, hear, think…?

Now there is 100% seeing, that „body“ cannot do anything.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

There is no connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror. Only thoughts and mental images suggest that there is.

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

There is no connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror.

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

There is no connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image ‘of movement’.

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

The image does not suggest that it is “me” or “my body” or “body” at all. There are only colours and shapes.

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

Just by the image in the mirror there is no ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs. Only thoughts and mental images from the past suggest so.

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

There is no “body”, only pure sensations.

(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?

No “body”. Only sensations.

Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all? Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

No, there is no AE of walking. Just thoughts about walking.

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

No ‘body’ or such thing as ‘walking’ can be found in AE. Just thoughts about ‘body’ and ‘walking’.

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Sensations cannot be localized in space. They just are.


Love,
Vitas