curiousity

[EllieRose]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I am very curious about this,and it has made me a bit obsessed lately. I have had some experiences,short lived though,that I felt I was inside my mind.With everyone else, with all things,like I was inside instead of seperate. And I wonder? Is it possible to shift into this at a permanent state of beeing,and is this I experienced the no self?

What are you looking for at LU?
I look for help in seeing more clearly what is this illusion of me,the truth of who I am.Find it a bit difficult to answer this,it is just a hope for help to change the way I see the world and my place in it. I think a guide would help me a lot with inquiry and move /point me in the right direction through dialog and communication. I have a feeling that this is very energetic,so my hope is to be open to what is given me. A part of me understand that this is not my own choice, that this search for my true self is not my doing, so I look for a discovery at LU
What do you expect from a guided conversation? I hope for help and pointers that help me see who I am,who I am not.I am very curious,and I believe I am ready to dig in, and having a dialog with someone would be amazing. I am alone in my search now, so it would be amazing to find a guide to help me and connect with.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I began with yoga 6 years ago,and my awareness somehow expanded and gave me more space on the inside. Did several different plant medicines, that shifted my perception and made me seek the truth.So I ,read eckhart tolles book and followed the talks with him on utube. Since then my life has revolved around myself,my psyche,and how to be free. I try to be present and do my yoga practice,followed by meditation. Beeing in nature is the most spiritual place in my experience,my hole system loves and relaxes when it can breathe in nature. My interest in the concept non duality is kind of new compared to many seekers I see and hear have reached this awakening. so I am afraid I am too new and not so experienced in this work so to speak,but I find it impossible to stop this search even when I try to give it up and just live.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

[JonathanR]

Hello EllieRose

Welcome to LU. I'm Jon and and am offering to guide .

I read what you've written with interest. Your inquisitiveness is a very good thing that will definitely help. Don't worry about being 'new' to non-duality. In many ways this can be very helpful because it ican be very confusing for someone to think they know all about non-duality when there is't much to 'know' , as such.


What we would do Is have a conversation , the focus of which would be for you to make the realisation that there is no self. I would offer pointers in the form of questions. I would not be teaching or 'telling' you what to think or believe. It would be for you to take my questions and look at your experience to find out whats true and what isn't.

Would you be able to post once a day, (mostly)? This is much better than a slow exchange with a week or two between replies.

Are you able to put any spiritual teachings, teachers , DVDs or videos aside for the time that we will be talking? Please let me know.

If you feel ready to start, please tell me what is your current understanding of what "you" are?

Warm regards

Jon

[EllieRose]

Hello Jon!
Thank you for offering to guide me,I am feeling exited and curious and a bit scared of what will come out of this process.
To your questions regarding to stop watching utube and reading more on this topic while I "work" with you,I will promise you to really try to let it go,.It feels like an obsession, but I am ready and I want to move on to focus on my own experience. I really feel that in my belly,actually.
On your next question,on what I take myself to be,I will reply and send it tommorrow? A bit busy right now. We can go for daily communication,or everyother day if it is a lot involved?
Yohoo,this feels quite exiting,thank you again.
Warm hugs from Rita/EllieRose

[JonathanR]

Hi

Would you like me to call you Rita?

Great to hear from you.

. me,I am feeling exited and curious and a bit scared of what will come out of this process.

That's perfectly fine

. I want to move on to focus on my own experience. I really feel that in my belly,actually.

Very good

. On your next question,on what I take myself to be,I will reply and send it tomorrow? A bit busy right now.

Ok.

. We can go for daily communication,or everyother day if it is a lot involved?

Yes. Thats a good sort of pace. These conversations tend to be fruitful if that kind of pace can be maintained.

. Yohoo,this feels quite exiting,thank you again.
Warm hugs from Rita/EllieRose

That's great! These inquiries can be exciting.

Warm hugs back

Jon

[EllieRose]

Hello Jon!
What I understand by "me" or who I am is honestly that I dont know yet.
I know that when searcing within myself,or in my mind,I can find a lot of words to describe who I am as a person.But then I know that things change so fast,so I can be everything,both good and bad,and so on.I feel like there is two of me,one is constantly changing identity or roles and appears differently with changes in mood,with the surroundings and with different company.I am a mother,a daughter,sister,...
And the other me is the one I feel is more constant,the one I always am so to speak, this is more a sense,a feeling I guess.When I am alone,nothing is troubling me,at peace with a book or just relaxed after yoga or sometimes in meditation,I feel more like myself than what I feel when I am stressed out.
What really makes me wonder and question what and who I am;or what we are,is my experience around other people.I believe I can actually feel what other around me feel sometimes.Especially with one individual I am convinced that I connected with him deeply,I even noticed that we were holding our breath and then started gasping like exactly the same time.He is not someone I know well,but I was listening to him telling his lifestory,and was completely absorbed in...all of him it felt like I was a mirror 100 %. This is one example of many that makes me very curious and really obsessed on finding some answers.
I could easily tell you things I have read and heard on what teachings I believe in or not believe in,but what I need to know is the truth if possible,and what I maybe believe in does not satisfy me anymore. So I know there is no entity within me,but it feels like I am inside my head somewhere anyway. And I feel mostly like there are boundaries between myself and the world. So even if I totally feel like part of this planet and feel unity with animals and nature, I have a lot of trouble with humans, and mostly with myself. It can feel as I am splintered into many parts,and even after living half a century,I am still not able to find out whats wrong.
Hope this answer is ....well,useful for you and for me.
Have a good night,or day.I dont know where youre from,I am in norway, and it is way past my bedtime,haha....
from your new friend Rita

[JonathanR]

Hi Rita

Great to hear back from you. :-). I'm in England

. I could easily tell you things I have read and heard on what teachings I believe in or not believe in,but what I need to know is the truth if possible,and what I maybe believe in does not satisfy me anymore

This is great. That dissatisfaction will serve you well.

. So I know there is no entity within me,but it feels like I am inside my head somewhere anyway. And I feel mostly like there are boundaries between myself and the world

That's very helpful to know. Thank you.

This gives us something to work with. When you say "inside my head' do you mean you identify with thinking thoughts, as if you are the thinker? Or more that you feel spatially located within the head or the body ?

We can definitely look at thoughts or feelings of boundaries between what appears to be "you" and the world

Here is a very interesting exercise. It is not an
intellectual exercise. You have to try it out for real.

The words on this screen are seen but what is it that is doing the seeing?

Conventionally it is often said that it is "eyes" or "the body" that is "me" that is doing the seeing.

So, right here and now take a look to find out. What's the actual experience?

Is it one of 'eyes' seeing, or of 'a body seeing'?
Is seeing simply happening ?

Let me know how you get on?

Best wishes

Jon

[EllieRose]

Hi!
I would place myself mostly in my head,or brain, if Im honest. When it comes to thoughts I dont choose them or produce them.but I feel that I decide whitch ones my attention goes to more or less if I am calm enough. I also feel it is me who take action or dont take action in regards to cravings from my body/mind.It is so easy to repeat something I have learned or read,even when I try not to.This suddenly feels a bit scary, I dont know why since nothing has happened! I think it is the idea that I will always go in a circle based on conditioning, if I dont decide anything that happens.
well well,to this exercise, I would say seeing is what happened if I must choose one of the choices. But also attention on seeing was experienced both in my eyes and my body, I feel actually a bit annoyed if this nondual thing , not you,I dont know why I all of a sudden feel really tense and unsure. It will pass, i am sure of that.
so long!

[JonathanR]

Hi Rita

. This suddenly feels a bit scary, I dont know why since nothing has happened! I think it is the idea that I will always go in a circle based on conditioning, if I dont decide anything that happens.

Scariness is often experienced in these inquiries into "self" . It can be quite a step into the unknown. The good news is that anxiety of fear can usually be dealt with successfully.

I feel actually a bit annoyed of this nondual thing , not you,I dont know why I all of a sudden feel really tense and unsure. It will pass, i am sure of that.

Again, it may be the strangeness of beginning to see that there really is no self, never was and never will be? It seems as if something feels threatened and there's a feeling to defend or pull away? It's an instinct to protect. It's love in fact. An attempt to protect that which is perceived as threatened or at risk

But there never was a fixed, separate entity 'self' . This has always been an idea, (albeit a fairly universal idea). In fact nothing will change at all and there is nothing that needs protection.

You could try speaking to the fear and tell it really sincerely how much you love it. Give it a great big hug and explain that nobody can be hurt as nothing will really change. Its possible to completely relax.

Does any of this help?

Love

Jon

[EllieRose]

Dear Jon!

Thank you so much for your response. It really helped me when you wrote that the fear was love. I just stopped... and I had a rush of energy in my chest, moving upwards and really changed my inner state instantly. So innocent and loving....
Then,20 min after, when I read your advice on meeting the fear with love, I started laughing,and almost crying, because that was what I just experienced and I was not the doer. Now I am curious and exited again, and my attention feels more strong?
Since yesterdays question on seeing, I have been exploring this walking in nature . It is so beautiful and fresh and vibrant now, with this new way of just experience seeing. The labeling of trees and colors became quiet after a while,and it felt like I could breath with it all.
So now I am off to a new fresh sunny day, and I am going to explore my senses in this new way, so thank you so much,Jon!
I wish you the best day!
Love
Rita

[EllieRose]

HI again.!
By the way, how do I use this Quote function? I like it when you use them, so maybe I could do that myself?
And keep giving me things to explore, I am not annoyed or scared anymore, at least not right now.
Love Rita

[JonathanR]

Hi Rita

I'll just deal with how you can use the Quote function first.

When you are writing, notice the words up above the editing window. One of them says "Quote". So, when you want to quote some part of our chat you just select the lines in the way that you would if you were copying text. "Copy" the text and then , where you would like it to appear as a quote with an orange background, place your cursor and go to the "Quote" word above and press or click on it. That makes the open quote and close quote marks appear . Then you place your cursor exactly in the middle between them and "paste" the lines between them. Bear in mind that you will not see the full effect until you use the Preview function before Submitting your post. It's really not as difficult as it sounds . (Hope this helps?).

I'm delighted with hearing how things changed for you today.

. Thank you so much for your response. It really helped me when you wrote that the fear was love. I just stopped... and I had a rush of energy in my chest, moving upwards and really changed my inner state instantly. So innocent and loving....
Then,20 min after, when I read your advice on meeting the fear with love, I started laughing,and almost crying, because that was what I just experienced and I was not the doer. Now I am curious and exited again, and my attention feels more strong?

Fabulous! Well...that worked then.

. Since yesterdays question on seeing, I have been exploring this walking in nature . It is so beautiful and fresh and vibrant now, with this new way of just experience seeing. The labeling of trees and colors became quiet after a while,and it felt like I could breath with it all.
So now I am off to a new fresh sunny day, and I am going to explore my senses in this new way, so thank you so much,Jon!
I wish you the best day!

You're welcome Rita. Go for it.

You've cottoned on very quickly. You mention exploring your senses. Exploring various sensations out in Nature could hardly be better.

Specifically, I'll mention an exercise to do with hearing. You can try this too.

When you will not be disturbed , sit quietly somewhere and start to notice whatever can be heard. This could be quiet sounds such as breathing or maybe the hum of some electrical appliance somewhere. There may also be louder sounds such as birds tweeting somewhere or a dog barking down the road. There may be louder sounds too, voices talking or machine noise such as cars passing. It doesn't matter what's heard, it's all fine. Simply notice the experience as it's happening.

Now, is there an experience of "ears doing hearing" or of "a self hearing" ? Or is hearing just happening?

Now, at some point it may be noticed that thoughts also appear. If thats the case, does it seem that the thoughts are making hearing happen, or are thoughts something different from hearing, something else?

Love

Jon

[EllieRose]

Hello Jon.
I am really having an emotinal day,from peaceful and happy to a feeling of grief and hopelessness. My hole body seems exhausted of trying to do better,to keep up with all the ideas and judgements from thoughts about myself and my family.I try to stay in the present, but today was intense and painful fall back to old patterns of selfhatred almost.
Well,I really want to get back on track with this possibility to be relieved from feeling guilt and shame,if there really is no control here. Can not wrap my head around that.
On this sound exercise, it really is hearing happening actually .And a lot of thoughts on what the sounds are,which one is closer and from witch direction and so on.Also thoughts on a self that is hearing.
When I listen to music I love; I kind of loose myself in it. No thoughts but lot of feelings.
Hope you have had a good day.
love
Rita

[JonathanR]

Evening Rita

Thanks for your honest post.

.
I am really having an emotinal day,from peaceful and happy to a feeling of grief and hopelessness. My hole body seems exhausted of trying to do better,to keep up with all the ideas and judgements from thoughts about myself and my family.I try to stay in the present, but today was intense and painful fall back to old patterns of selfhatred almost.

I hear you. Yes, it's the belief in those thoughts that can be exhausting. Often it can seem that someone, "me", is suffering exhaustion , judgement , selfhatred and it can seem quite real.

We go on to look at our experience until it's seen clearly that there really is no 'self'. as such, but rather, many thoughts ABOUT 'self'.

. Well,I really want to get back on track with this possibility to be relieved from feeling guilt and shame,if there really is no control here. Can not wrap my head around that.

It goes against everything were taught as we grow up.to hear that there is no control. We will get to that in a while. It is impossible to know how no self will be experienced. Even guilt and shame may appear and feel uncomfortable; but it will be clear that this was never really "my guilt" or "my shame'.

. On this sound exercise, it really is hearing happening actually .And a lot of thoughts on what the sounds are,which one is closer and from witch direction and so on.Also thoughts on a self that is hearing.

Well done for doing this.
Is it clear that hearing just happens? That in hearing there is only hearing ?

And you notice thoughts appearing. Do these thoughts seem to cause hearing to happen or are they something different from hearing, something extra that is added on to hearing,?

Love

Jon

[EllieRose]

Hi Jon!

I had a good night sleep,and the sun is shining.Thank you for your comments on how we are conditioned to meet thoughts like we do,and how that works. After a day like yesterday,I feel like I have cleansed in a way. I have done a lot of work on trauma during my life, now I wonder if my attention/way of meeting feelings is key to everything. So new day,fresh start and ready to go out in this beautiful day...
On hearing sounds, they are clearer and kind of different depending on how "loud" my thoughts are. My thoughts does not cause hearing. A different "thing",or sense, my english is bad,sorry for that.. But it is funny,when I think about your question, I see doubts pop up and try to maybe change my initial answer, like " are you sure thoughts do not control hearing?". thoughts kind of appear as a voice, like a silent sound almost going on all the time. Well, it is hard to describe life in words,it is impossible actually.
I enjoy this so much, Jon.Thank you!

Love
Rita

Ps! Sorry for not using this quote thing yet, I am going to figure it out when I meet my daughter comes by.

[JonathanR]

Hi Rita

. I had a good night sleep,and the sun is shining.Thank you for your comments on how we are conditioned to meet thoughts like we do,and how that works. After a day like yesterday,I feel like I have cleansed in a way. I have done a lot of work on trauma during my life, now I wonder if my attention/way of meeting feelings is key to everything.

Good to hear. Yes. Perhaps attention is key?

. On hearing sounds, they are clearer and kind of different depending on how "loud" my thoughts are. My thoughts does not cause hearing. A different "thing",or sense

That's my experience too. Hearing is hearing. Thoughts are thoughts. As you say, like a different sense. But interestingly, thoughts are also ABOUT something or other. In words, or images, thoughts seem to have this quality of content or story. Do you notice?

Seeing and hearing aren't like that, it seems. They are just happening. Pure, direct sensation . But thoughts are usually "saying" something.

. my english is bad,sorry for that.

No, it's really quite good

. But it is funny,when I think about your question, I see doubts pop up and try to maybe change my initial answer, like " are you sure thoughts do not control hearing?". thoughts kind of appear as a voice, like a silent sound almost going on all the time.

That's very interesting.

I probably asked you before but is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing? Try that now

Also, can you create a thought? Find out if it's possible to "think" a thought up?

What happens?

Love

Jon