Looking for a guide

[okjose]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding is that the personal self is a bit like a veil or filter that I keep referencing to with all the beliefs and thoughts that are associated with it and when this drops away I'm left with direct experience of life. I believe the inherent self is a bunch of thoughts that I'm identified with and this is what causes a lot of my suffering

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking to realise my true nature and to be able to live conciously from that as that. I hoping to find truth whatever that may be, I feel as though I am caught up in my mind and believe my identification with my story and thoughts are holding me back from living and being open to the world.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I have been on a bit of a journey of self inquiry for the past year mostly on my own reading books and watching videos. I feel like I've made a lot of progress but I'm getting to a point where I'd like guidance and to be able to communicate with someone who has realised their true nature.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
About 2 years ago I fell into my true nature briefly while doing some breath mediation. At the time I had no idea what it was but I was able to see my thinking and had a sense that everything is absolutely ok. It felt so natural and like i'd come home and was at rest and it was so refreshing and joyful. However it didn't last very long maybe a matter of minutes but that sent me on a journey of trying to find out what it was and how to get there again. I then started reading books like The Power of Now (Ekhart Tolle) and noticed it affected my heart and there was something resonating. The following year I went on a silent 10 day Vippassana (Goenka) retreat hoping to have the same experience again but as wonderful as the retreat was it didn't end my seeking. That was about a year ago and since then I broadened my search and discovered non-dualism and self inquiry. I believe what I expereinced two years ago was my natural state and that self inquiry can be a process of undoing or seeing through the conditioning I've had.
This has been an obsession now for the past year or so and I spend most of my free time watching or reading people like John Wheeler, Terrence Stephens, Rupert Spira, Mooji and diving into self inquiry.
Even though I haven't realised myself (I don't think so anyway), through out this journey has been a growing sense of peace and joy. It's very subtle but I feel it's an indicator I'm onto something. When I hear something that resonates I feel it in my heart space. More recently I had been feeling a sense of spaciousness and breifly identifying with that and it also feels like i'm right on the edge of discovering something which I think is just the frustration or limit of the mind. The last two days I have been feeling a bit of frustration and impatience and not very spacious at all which is ok as I know it will pass but either way that's why I've come here as I feel I needed to step it up and ask for help and hopefully get some guidance.
I'm very grateful that this site exists and would appreciate any help or guidance. Many thanks :)
Jose

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Bluejay]

Hi Jose,

I'm Henri.

Welcome to the forum. I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

If yes, then we can start...

If you haven't already, please read the disclaimer here: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

And then have a look at what Liberation Unleashed is not in the FAQ: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some guidelines (you may already be familiar with most of this, but just in case):

1. Post at least once every 24 to 48 hours. I'm not strict about this, but I would prefer it if you posted regularly. If you can't, please let me know.

2. Be 100% honest. There is no judgment here. No answer or question is silly or stupid. Your progress is key.

3. This process is based on direct experience, which means sensation, smell, taste, observed thoughts, and so on. There is no need to rely too much on the mind for answers, so long philosophical and analytical answers are best avoided.

4. Pause any other teachings, rituals, books, and practices you are currently involved in. It is best to put all your effort into this inquiry for as long as it lasts. A meditation practice is fine, but anything else can be a distraction.

5. Technology can be problematic. I recommend you type your answers in a text editor like MS Word or Google Docs, and then copy and paste them into this thread. This way you avoid losing your answer if there's a technical glitch.

6. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to answer each question individually. Here are instructions on how to use the quote function if it is not already clear: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And to start, I'd like to know your expectations for realizing that there is no inherent self. You don't have to use direct experience for this. Just share what comes to mind:

1. How will life change?
2. How will you change?
3. What will be different?
4. What is missing?

Enjoy! :)

[okjose]

Hi Henri, Thank you so much for offering to be my guide. I would certainly like to go ahead with you and thank you in advance for your time.

1. How will life change?

On one hand I don't know and I think that is a good way to keep an open mind but on the other, I believe that I will be happier and more connected with life. I suffer sometimes with social anxiety and other worries like a lot of us do and I have a belief that this will help me to stop believing and identifying with the anxious or negative thoughts that pop up. There's a belief that I'll be able to have more freedom in my movements through life without the constant belief in negative or irrational fearful thoughts.

2. How will you change?

I believe I'll be happier and more connected to life somehow and more at ease. I sometimes feel as though there's a gap or invisible barrier between me and my surroundings. I feel that's possibly the filter of the mind or the buzzing of the mind if that makes sense - like I'm splitting my attention between thoughts and direct experience.

3. What will be different?

Apart from what I've said above I don't think I believe anything will be different in terms of how life presents and appears.

4. What is missing?

Deep down I don't believe anything is actually missing but I do sometimes have the strong feeling that I need something but I don't know what. Like a sense of something lacking. Bit like a baby for a dummy. I used to be a smoker and it's almost the same kind of feeling as wanting a cigarette but with this there's nothing there to grasp. I've allowed myself to just sit and feel into this at times and looking inwards has helped or trying to be aware of awareness but this does sometimes feel like an effort. I would imagine this sense of lack is just the activity of thoughts somehow but Im not sure. That being said the more I think on it the more I realise this sense of lack is what has driven my spiritual seeking (as I think is the same for many others). I gave up smoking permanently and alcohol for a while and unnecessary eating or snacking to try and get closer to this sense of lack. Just as an experiment really. I guess I had the belief that I was ignoring or masking something with vices.

[Bluejay]

Thank you so much for offering to be my guide. I would certainly like to go ahead with you and thank you in advance for your time.

Excellent. Happy to be your guide. Let's begin the 'journey' :)

On one hand I don't know and I think that is a good way to keep an open mind but on the other, I believe that I will be happier and more connected with life. I suffer sometimes with social anxiety and other worries like a lot of us do and I have a belief that this will help me to stop believing and identifying with the anxious or negative thoughts that pop up. There's a belief that I'll be able to have more freedom in my movements through life without the constant belief in negative or irrational fearful thoughts.

Great. Feel free to be as honest as possible. Often we can have a surface "I don't know," but when there's more poking, the truth is revealed.

These expectations are reasonable. Anxiety and fear can lessen, but it may not be what you expect.

I believe I'll be happier and more connected to life somehow and more at ease. I sometimes feel as though there's a gap or invisible barrier between me and my surroundings. I feel that's possibly the filter of the mind or the buzzing of the mind if that makes sense - like I'm splitting my attention between thoughts and direct experience.

This is already a very keen insight!

I would imagine this sense of lack is just the activity of thoughts somehow but Im not sure. That being said the more I think on it the more I realise this sense of lack is what has driven my spiritual seeking (as I think is the same for many others). I gave up smoking permanently and alcohol for a while and unnecessary eating or snacking to try and get closer to this sense of lack. Just as an experiment really. I guess I had the belief that I was ignoring or masking something with vices.

It can definitely be a way of avoiding unpleasant sensations in the body.

Thank you for your honesty with all this.

Now that we have your expectations fleshed out a bit, let's begin setting the foundation.

Socks Exercise

There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience).

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

- You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

- Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are.

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

[okjose]

Hi Henri,

Yes I believe I’m clear on the difference.
I feel like sometimes there’s a mental overlay ie: if I am hearing the sound of a car there is also a mental image and label that can be kind of distracting from the direct experience of sound but I’ll do my best to look directly at whatever you direct me to.

[Bluejay]

Yes I believe I’m clear on the difference.
I feel like sometimes there’s a mental overlay ie: if I am hearing the sound of a car there is also a mental image and label that can be kind of distracting from the direct experience of sound but I’ll do my best to look directly at  whatever you direct me to.

That sounds good!

Let's try it and see how things go.

Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. Exactly.

Enjoy :)

[okjose]

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. Exactly.

Thanks Henri, I tried this a couple of times today already but I’ll start again tomorrow so I’ve had a full day of it and report back.

[Bluejay]

Thanks Henri, I tried this a couple of times today already but I’ll start again tomorrow so I’ve had a full day of it and report back.

Understood! Thanks for letting me know :)

[okjose]

Hi Henri,

Here are my lists.

Placing new herb plant on window:

Seeing plant, simply = image/colour
Picking up and moving plant, simply = sensation
Placing plant down and rolling down cellophane packaging, simply = sound
Smelling hand after touching plant, simply = smell

Having a cup of tea:

Looking at cup, simply = image/colour
Picking cup cup, simply = sensation
Drinking tea, simply = taste
Placing cup back down on coaster, simply = sound

Opening package/box:

Seeing box, simply = image/colour
Cutting through tape with fingernail, simply = sensation
Opening lid of box, simply = sound

Brushing teeth:
Putting toothpaste on toothbrush, simply = image/colour
Placing toothbrush/paste in mouth, simply = sensation
spreading toothpaste around, simply = taste
thought to smell tooth paste, simply = thought
Smelling toothpaste, simply = smell

Making a cup of tea:
looking at kettle, simply = image/colour
Turning it on, simply = sound
placing teabag in cup, simply = sensation
Pouring water, simply = sound
Stirring tea, simply = sound

Having shower:
Looking at tap, simply = image/ colour
Turning tap on, simply = sensation
Water coming out, simply = sound
Anticipating water temperature, simply = thought
Getting into shower, simply = sensation

[okjose]

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. Exactly.

So sorry I've just realised you specifically say 'same order'. Shall I do some more today and post again later today?

[Bluejay]

So sorry I've just realised you specifically say 'same order'. Shall I do some more today and post again later today?

Not a problem. No need for more. You did good on the exercise :)

Let's move on to the next step:

Mind Labeling

Here is an exercise which examines how the mind labels experience. This takes about 20 minutes and you will need pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 2 x 10 minute parts. For each 10 minute part pay attention to any bodily sensation (is there any tightening, or any relaxing?)

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

- I am sitting on a chair
- I am hearing a clock ticking
- I am looking at a computer screen
- I am feeling hungry

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the second ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”.

Describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

- Sitting on a chair
- Typing
- Breathing
- Blinking
- Hearing the clock
- Hunger

(Watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Enjoy! :)

[okjose]

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The second list without the 'I' seems truer in the sense that the I thought doesn't need to be there. It's more direct and cleaner to say hearing clock etc.. The list seem more factual and direct.

2. What is here without labels?

I don't really know. I would say hearing, seeing, feeling, thinking, tasting and smelling. Everything is still here.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

No, labels don't change the experience, they just describe it with thought. Although the labelling is like another experience that's added on (so in that sense maybe). They can maybe be a bit distracting from the direct experience since they're a thought that seems to be trying to describe the thing as its happening. But there a definite delay from direct experience to the labeling. The label distracts from the direct experience.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

It felt relaxing at one point durning the listing without the 'I'. And a bit easier and free flowing / less complicated.

[Bluejay]

Yes. Good good :)

Now the natural continuation:

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what do they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts about something, because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought about ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk about can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

- Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
- Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Enjoy and let me know what you discover :)

[okjose]

However, is an apple actually known?

I don’t have an actual apple in front of me so I’m using the image on the screen for this. At first I couldn’t see it but then it seemed clear:

You are correct all that is experienced is the image / colour and thought. For me the thought is just the word apple and thought of how it might taste, smell, feel but this is not actually experience this is just thought.
“Apple” is imagination and so cannot be known or actually experienced. Apple doesn’t exist really, it points to imagination.
As I was writing this it went from being totally clear to not so clear, like it’s a bit tiring for the brain (which is kind of ironic because it's the thinking and not the actual experience that is tiring). I’m interested to try this again in the morning.

[Bluejay]

You are correct all that is experienced is the image / colour and thought. For me the thought is just the word apple and thought of how it might taste, smell, feel but this is not actually experience this is just thought.

“Apple” is imagination and so cannot be known or actually experienced. Apple doesn’t exist really, it points to imagination.
As I was writing this it went from being totally clear to not so clear, like it’s a bit tiring for the brain (which is kind of ironic because it's the thinking and not the actual experience that is tiring). I’m interested to try this again in the morning.

Yes. Excellent looking.

Apple is a label that doesn't exist in direct experience. We're so used to using labels like this that we forget they aren't real.

See if you can relax as you do this exercise. No need to strain. Let it happen by itself.

Let me know how it goes in the morning :)