Uncertain - I'd love to clarify on whats next

[SaLou]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
When I observe what I think is me, I find sensations like my heart is pounding and "I'm nervous". Am I the collection of these changing, uncomfortable/enjoyable and substantive sensations? I use to think "I" was my thoughts but then I observed everything happening inside from body sensation to visual and auditory content was not me

What are you looking for at LU?
I'd like to connect with someone who can reflect where I am at in terms of realizing self/no-self. I've been at this for some time and it's been a gradual process with some peaks but when I read about self view and no self in terms of how it's described at LU, i'm curious. I've never had anyone to talk to who is openly further down the path then me.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect there to be some dialogue to help clarify the beliefs/experience i have or don't have around self. I'm available to work on this now. I expect to be questioned and challenged to think critically. I have been skeptical in life so doubt and confusion can still come up. I expect there to be reciprical respect and honesty. I'm excited

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've followed one thing to the next which led me here. Im part of group that meets daily online to meditate, we each do our own thing, no guidance. I like this very much. Through books, inquiry, videos, therapy, ceremony and most of all intensive meditation retreats there is less of the me that suffers. Daniel Ingram MCTB2, shinzen young, vipassana with s.n. goekaji. After one big peak experience a few years ago, the following weeks were equanimous! wow I didnt realise that was possible. Mental content dissappeard, almost. Over the next months the push and pull of life came back and i mourned that silence I experienced but I haven't gone back to that "me" again. was that realising no self? where next...

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Bananafish]

Hi SaLou. :). My name is Kento, one of the guides here.
I've been guiding for quite a long time, and may be able to help you in some way.

Please let me know if you feel like having a dialogue with me.

Warm regards,

Kento

[SaLou]

Hi Kento! I would like to have a dialogue with you. I appreciate this, Louise

[Bananafish]

Hi Louise. :) Ok, let's start, then.

Are you familiar with our object of observation / inquiry, namely what
people here call direct experience, or in a more general term, raw sensation
without any verbal or conceptual label attached?

If not, we could start from that.

Warmly,

Kento

[SaLou]

I think so. Bird sound - there is hearing. Body sitting - feel etc

[Bananafish]

Nice. :). Please note that even "hearing" and "feel" are names and not itself.
You will notice that, even when you feel that you are observing without labels,
what is observed is not itself.

Anyway, let's continue, then.

Now, please feel into the body and observe the sensations that the attention goes naturally.
Take your time and don't strain yourself too much.

Then, please report what you found out. It could be anything that you feel is worth reporting.

Warm wishes,

Kento

[SaLou]

Goodday Kento,

First report evening: Sensation are coming and going. Random. Resisting thoughts is uncomfortable. Labelling keeps happening. Smiling. Sigh... Sensations are just happening. Attention moves about chaotically. Hear in, taste, hear in, feel in, see out, see in, feel out, feel in, hear in, hear out, feel in, hear out, feel, feel, feel, hear, hear in, hear in, hear out, see in...

When feeling whats going on inside I generally prefer to direct attention rather than let it move about. So, i have found this a little challenging

When you said "feel into the body and observe the sensations that the attention goes naturally." By naturally - did i understand you correctly that you were asking me to observe sensations, without trying to direct attention?

Second report, next afternoon:

There's more sensations happening. Attention is on this sensation, then that one, then the whole body and zooming into this part and there, so busy!

Eyes closed, i experience an emotion. For the first time i see what i called emotions as a combination of thought (image and sound) AND body sensation that has charge. Its gripping. And my eyes shoot open to seeing the wall. There's this transition of experiencing sensation to looking with eyes at wall. I think "oh im not that emotion that was so gripping but by comparison looking at the wall is more "me". But where is "I" in the looking and seeing?" Well i'll leave it at that

Reflecting on what is worth reporting has been interesting, thank you for that

Have a wonderful day
Many thanks,
Louise

[Bananafish]

Hi Louise. :) You're doing a great job in observation and describing it!
Keep the good work, and let's see what happens. :)

By naturally - did i understand you correctly that you were asking me to observe sensations, without trying to direct attention?

Yes, exactly.


Now, let's proceed a bit. Please do the same, but this time, look closer to see whether
there is any subject, a feeler, which is feeling all those sensations. If there is any, please describe what
it is. Also, it would be worth asking yourself, regarding attention, who or what is
attending to a sensation.


Please try that out and report again what comes out.


Best wishes,

Kento

[SaLou]

Hi Kento :)

look closer to see whether
there is any subject, a feeler, which is feeling all those sensations.

There's no feeler feeling sensations

regarding attention, who or what is
attending to a sensation.

A sensation just arose so i asked who is attending to the sensation. Empty. There's no one directing attention. I have not found "me" when i look so there's some sense of clarity. I'm able to verify this over and over.

When i ask "what" is attenting to a sensation, looking is not so clear. I hear "I don't know". Feels murky confusion. So i ask what is the belief? There must be something directing attention. I don't know how to look for "what". Its not me but its something unknowable. Resistance arises to the certainty of the beleif. Unsure of how to investigate

Fascinating territory... feels like the edge. Thank you

Louise

[Bananafish]

Very nice, Louise. I think we could proceed from what you wrote:

There must be something directing attention.

Directly see whether this is true. When attention goes to something, is there someone
who is attending? Can you completely control it? What is the nature, the characteristics of what
you call attention?


Enjoy the inquiry!

Kento

[SaLou]

Hi hi Kento,

I made the claim that there must be something directing attention.

Directly see whether this is true. When attention goes to something, is there someone
who is attending?

This doesn't seem to be true. I don't find anyone. Attention is moving about, happening.

Can you completely control it?

Haha not so much. Similarly how sensations/thoughts are happening, im seeing attention is happening too. I hadn't noticed this quality so much about attention before

What is the nature, the characteristics of what
you call attention?

What a great final question. I inquired into the nature of what i call attention in the same way that i would any other sensation. Suddenly rather than "murk - must be something" i identified sensations like "i don't know" and "heart beating". A bunch of sensations seemed to be fused together so i never thought to look. Seemed to be blocking. I'm suspecting that although on an intellectual level with some direct experience, i knew attention was not me but i hadnt known how to look so i had been thinking it was me directing it. Surrprise to me, attention is changing, its empty. I'll keep looking as i'm curious so see what i find/don't find. Thank you Kento I really appreciate this

[Bananafish]

Fantastic, Louise! Glad that you are working with the inquiry
with interest and curiosity. :)

Let's get it down slowly; so, for the rest of the day (when you can), please observe the sensations just
like we did before, plus, observe attention in the same way.

This time, you could put a bit emphasis on the impermanent nature
of sensations, by observing when it appears, when it goes, where it appears, and where it
goes. Experiment a bit and see what comes up. :)

It would be nice if you could spare some time, sitting quietly, exclusively
for the inquiry; although that's always optional. The key is to observe as many times as possible to
see clearly.

Warm regards,

Kento

[SaLou]

Alright here we go! Hi Kento.

What I can report:
Sensation, attention is coming and going. It seems like attention is noriced at different points of where and when it changes. There's a fluid quality of many many arisings and passings. There are gross sensations that when observed closer are uncountable. Attention like sensations can be described as vast, constricted etc but those words are added on top of the experience which is happening, changing

From your 2nd reply you wrote:
"You will notice that, even when you feel that you are observing without labels,
what is observed is not itself."

So I added the word attention: You will notice that, even when you feel that you are observing attention without label, what is observed is not itself.

Looking at attention in this way is hard to do and explain. Maybe Its looking back at the looking

Mental content appears: what is attention? So i observe its nature again. Changing.

Do i keep referring to what i experience as attention with a special name "attention" when it's also a sensation? Well that's a thought and another sensation... :) im not sure what attention is lol but there seems to be less reactivity as i keep looking

May you have a good day and many many thanks for UM and sharing your time and experience with me,

Louise

[Bananafish]

Hi Louise. :) Thanks for the good day wishes, and I hope your day is great as well!

Now, back to the crucial point to be looked at ... here we go:

Is there a directer of attention somewhere?

Please savor this question as you ask it to yourself, and don't forget to
actually observe attention, how it is appearing and disappearing, and what it is doing. :)

Don't worry if thoughts about attention appears; as you notice they appeared,
come back to the bare feeling of attention.

Hope you enjoy it!

Kento

[SaLou]

Goodday Kento,

Is there a director of attention somewhere?

When looking, attention has a fused quality with sight faculty and there is seeing. Attention seems to meld with sound and there is hearing

Yesterday attention appeared to be like a spotlight or little grabber of sensation eminating from a center point

Now attention is more of the experience. Where and when attention goes, is the bare sensation of hearing, not an observation of sensation by the spotlight holder. In the seeing, there is seeing. This is in contrast to thinking I am directing attention on seeing. Goash words are inadequate

Also this is new for me so I'll leave it at that and head to sleep

Blessings to you
What a challengingly marvelous process,
Louise