Free Mango

[FreeAlfie]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The self is an illusion created by the brain and conditioning. I know and see this, yet still often feel a sense of self.

What are you looking for at LU?
To see through the self construct and experience freedom directly. Compassion for the tendencies of being human. Freedom to express my heart fearlessly. Direct pointing without the arrogance that can show up in nondual communities.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Pointing me towards my blind spots clearly without shame or condescension. Patience without collusion. Wisdom, clarity, love and the energy of peaceful abiding versus being in the head and coming off as better than me.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Many years. Many ND books, professional training in inquiry as a deeply trained coach. I’ve been in several groups/ communities in the past years. I’ve done and am doing trauma work. I can easily bypass but I’ve learned that doesn’t work I’m most interested in direct pointing and am a bit burned out on aspects of ND that bypass trauma, humanity and the pragmatic parts of life. I am currently working with someone 1:1 both using TRE and guidance. She suggested this.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

[Bluejay]

Hi Alfie (is it okay if I call you that?)

Sorry about the long wait!

Welcome to the forum. I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

If yes, then we can start...

Some guidelines (I'm sure you're familiar with most of this but just in case):

1. Post at least once every 24 to 48 hours. I'm not strict about this, but I would prefer it if you posted regularly. If you can't, please let me know.

2. Be 100% honest. There is no judgment here. No answer or question is silly or stupid. Your progress is key.

3. Pause any other teachings, rituals, books, and practices you are currently involved in. It is best to put all your effort into this inquiry for as long as it lasts. A meditation practice is fine, but anything else can be a distraction.

4. Technology can be problematic. I recommend you type your answers in a text editor like MS Word or Google Docs, and then copy and paste them into this thread. This way you avoid losing your answer if there's a technical glitch.

5. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to answer each question individually. Here are instructions on how to use the quote function if it is not already clear: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And to start, I'd like to know your expectations. You don't have to use direct experience for this. Just share what comes to mind:

1. How will life change?
2. How will you change?
3. What will be different?
4. What is missing?

Enjoy!

[FreeAlfie]

Hi Bluejay,

Thank you for being my guide. You can call me either Mango or Alf.

1. How will life change?
My first response is I’m not sure how or that it will. But, my hope is that I will be freer of trivial upsets and endless pursuits that I take towards being free of suffering, better knowing what to do or how to live, etc. That I will find the panacea for suffering here at LU. That I’m to blame for my suffering so without the ‘my’ I won’t blame me. I’ll stop seeking and know innately how to live in each moment without doubt or fear.

2. How will you change?
I will no longer identify with the self, self story personal history. I will be present as awareness at all times. Impervious to blame and fault finders, those within or those without.
I will be free of patterns that seem beyond my control, like anxiety, desire to control, prevent harm, to help others, give advice, have the answers be masterful and thereby free of shame or guilt.

3. What will be different?

I will fell clear from being versus from the chatter of my mind and ego. I will be able to access intuition and heart. Freedom from constant anticipation and hope for something other than what’s here right now.

4. What is missing?

Freedom from the noisy mind that keeps going all of the time thinking that it knows everything or that it needs to know more about x,y,z. About how to live, awaken, succeed, be sincere, live fully. What’s missing is feeling unburdened by the challenges of others, ie they aren’t my problem. Feeling free of mistakes, fear of criticism or being made wrong, Fear of being left behind, missing out on life lived fully. With full self expression. Ability to stand up to others. It’s odd that in answering what’s missing what shows up is what’s in view that’s seeming to create suffering. I’m not sure what’s missing…. Easy relationships, full creativity, ease in groups, time well spent, being at peace with what is.

[Bluejay]

Thanks for the answers!

Can you use the quote function when you reply (as I have done below)? It makes it easier to read, especially for other guides that may read this.

Some of your expectations are a bit lofty. It's excellent that you're honest and aware of these. They will often come up in the process as seeming obstacles.

I will be free of patterns that seem beyond my control, like anxiety, desire to control, prevent harm, to help others, give advice, have the answers be masterful and thereby free of shame or guilt.

Seeing that there is no inherent self is the beginning of the journey, so it's likely that you will still feel many of the above things. We can look at these as they come up, but I wanted to point this out now.

It may be that nothing changes, except 'you' no longer believe you're the doer, controller, or decider.

4. What is missing?

Freedom from the noisy mind that keeps going all of the time thinking that it knows everything or that it needs to know more about x,y,z. About how to live, awaken, succeed, be sincere, live fully. What’s missing is feeling unburdened by the challenges of others, ie they aren’t my problem. Feeling free of mistakes, fear of criticism or being made wrong, Fear of being left behind, missing out on life lived fully. With full self expression. Ability to stand up to others. It’s odd that in answering what’s missing what shows up is what’s in view that’s seeming to create suffering. I’m not sure what’s missing…. Easy relationships, full creativity, ease in groups, time well spent, being at peace with what is.

Again, it's unlikely that thoughts will stop. They may lessen for a period after realization of no self, but it's rarely permanent.

As you wrote in the beginning of your post:

My first response is I’m not sure how or that it will.

This is a realistic expectation. Let's find out if anything changes :).

Now, here's a question I'd like you to answer next:

What comes up when I say there is no inherent self -- no witness, no doer, no controller, no independent self in charge of life?

Enjoy!

[FreeAlfie]

What comes up when I say there is no inherent self -- no witness, no doer, no controller, no independent self in charge of life?

“ Initially, I felt disappointment, disbelief, loss of hope and resistance even though I intellectually accept that there is No Self. And, have never been able to locate a self via inquiry. The loss of hope is due to fear that realizing there is no self means living with and accepting all of the attribute I mentioned in the first four questions.

However, after reading your question early last evening, I awoke in the middle of the night with a negative, worried mind, filled with thoughts about things I find unpleasant and unhelpful (especially in the middle of the night 😂) After a bit I had the insight that if there is an internal self surely it could prevent or stop this process and not experience insomnia or worry. For that matter, it could control a host of things. Perhaps that’s the suffering, the illusion of a controller that isn’t doing its job so that my life feels ‘perfect.’ After a bit I did fall back to sleep.”

[Bluejay]

Hi Alf!

I'd like to remind you again to quote as I do below. All you have to do is highlight the text you want to quote in the forum reply box and hit the "quote" button above that, and it'll put quote brackets around it.

After a bit I had the insight that if there is an internal self surely it could prevent or stop this process and not experience insomnia or worry. For that matter, it could control a host of things.

That's a good insight. If there is a controller, where is it? Is it sleeping on duty or what's going on? ;-)

Initially, I felt disappointment, disbelief, loss of hope and resistance even though I intellectually accept that there is No Self. And, have never been able to locate a self via inquiry. The loss of hope is due to fear that realizing there is no self means living with and accepting all of the attribute I mentioned in the first four questions.

Ah, so the 'self' loses hope because if there is no self, then what is there to do? There's an assumption that action stops, but there has never been a self, and action has happened anyway. How is that possible?

Something you can do when these kinds of thoughts come up is to take them as nudges to inquire. Who or what is losing hope? Who are these thoughts referring to?

The above questions are for you to ponder during the day, if it resonates.

What I really want to focus on is what you mentioned above with the following questions:

- What is being protected by the disappointment and resistance?
- Why is it there?
- What feels threatened?
- Is it still needed?
- What's beyond the resistance?

As you go through these questions, pay attention to anything that comes up in your mind, such as 'random' images, feelings, or thoughts. They may be clues.

Enjoy!

[FreeAlfie]

[quote]
- What is being protected by the disappointment and resistance?

Fear of hurt, failure, doing it wrong. Fear of being an outsider by seeing there is no self and maybe not having compassion for the stories of self identified others.

- Why is it there?

It’s a form of armor. It is a relic from childhood when parents couldn’t be counted on which was disappointing to my forming self sense. It’s familiar to generate that story.

- What feels threatened?

A sensation inside feels threatened. I’d have to add words to say what that is but now it’s just a feeling of loss and loneliness and sadness. Of being small and unsafe.

- Is it still needed?
I’m not sure it’s needed now. It’s a familiar spot inside the sensation it protects is painful but not that bad to feel without generating a story about it. So many actions have been sourced from this dynamic as I’m beginning to feel and see this now.

- What's beyond the resistance?

Truly, just what’s happening now the feelings in the moment. Then some fear arises about not having protection for the baby inside. Is there even a baby inside 🤣😊😉

[FreeAlfie]

I’m struggling to use the quote function. My apologies.

[Bluejay]

To use the quote function, put what you want to quote within the quote brackets. Like this:

Code: Select all

[quote]This is the text that will be quoted.[/quote]

I had to use the 'code' function above to show the quote code. That's why it looks a bit weird. I'll be back with a reply to your answers soon!

[Bluejay]

It’s a form of armor. It is a relic from childhood when parents couldn’t be counted on which was disappointing to my forming self sense. It’s familiar to generate that story.

This is a great insight. From my own exploration, I've noticed that almost all of it comes from childhood as a way of surviving or at least comforting oneself. Feeling better about what's going on.

I’m not sure it’s needed now. It’s a familiar spot inside the sensation it protects is painful but not that bad to feel without generating a story about it. So many actions have been sourced from this dynamic as I’m beginning to feel and see this now.

Yes exactly. These sensations are what we want to avoid, and thus we have reactions and all kind of coping mechanisms. This stuff is really more of the shadow work that tends to come after realizing no inherent self, but it's helpful to see it.

Truly, just what’s happening now the feelings in the moment. Then some fear arises about not having protection for the baby inside. Is there even a baby inside

What you can do is assure the baby inside that everything is okay. Welcome all the feelings, and just sit with it. When you notice your mind going into reaction or fear, return to the sensations and sit with them. Welcome everything that arises.

Now, a few follow-up questions on this topic:

- If it's no longer needed, does it want to leave?
- If yes, release and feel it out (check for learnings as it leaves)
- If no, ask what it still wants to tell you

Enjoy :)

[FreeAlfie]

- If it's no longer needed, does it want to leave?
- If yes, release and feel it out (check for learnings as it leaves)
- If no, ask what it still wants to tell you

If it’s no longer needed, does it want to leave? It wants to be fully heard and felt before it leaves. It feels pushed aside as though it’s not valid and so it continues to show up. It wants me to know that it’s ok to be sad and grieve feeling/being minimized and thwarted. Not to beat myself up for ‘negative’ feelings. It’s tired of sacrificing to support others and to keep the peace.

I have a question you mention that it sounded more like shadow work in some of my previous replies, can you please clarify the difference between that and the intent of LU? I was in a system that focused on shadow work as a means to waking up so I may easily slip into that. I found shadow work can be bottomless which is why I moved on. I’m not adverse to doing it, but I want to stay aligned with this process. Thanks.

[Bluejay]

If it’s no longer needed, does it want to leave? It wants to be fully heard and felt before it leaves. It feels pushed aside as though it’s not valid and so it continues to show up. It wants me to know that it’s ok to be sad and grieve feeling/being minimized and thwarted. Not to beat myself up for ‘negative’ feelings. It’s tired of sacrificing to support others and to keep the peace.

With that message delivered, is it now ready to move on, or is there more to share?

I have a question you mention that it sounded more like shadow work in some of my previous replies, can you please clarify the difference between that and the intent of LU? I was in a system that focused on shadow work as a means to waking up so I may easily slip into that. I found shadow work can be bottomless which is why I moved on. I’m not adverse to doing it, but I want to stay aligned with this process. Thanks.

LU is about seeing through the illusion of the inherent self, and that's it. We'll start laying the foundation for this below with the first exercise.

Shadow work can indeed feel bottomless if you're just doing it to do it. The only reason to do it here is if fear, resistance, and so on gets in the way of realizing no inherent self.

Now for the exercise...

Socks Exercise

There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience).

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

- You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

- Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are.

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

[FreeAlfie]

The distinction between mind and direct experience is very clear. And, it’s also clear when to do shadow work and that is when feelings or emotions eclipse the capacity to engage with the LU inquiries.

By the way, my socks are white right now 😉

[Bluejay]

Excellent. White socks are good! :)

You seem to have gotten the hang of quoting. One more thing though: Right now you are quoting yourself. Could you try quoting what I write (for example, if I ask a question), and then your answer doesn't need to be quoted, if that makes sense?

With our white socks on, let's move to the next exercise:

Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. Exactly.

[FreeAlfie]

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Seeing coffee maker, simply = image/color
Smelling coffee grounds, simply = smell
Feeling the coolness of the coffee mug, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the music play, simply = sound
Thought about obituary being read, simply = thought

Seeing TV screen basketball game, simply = images/ color
Smelling popcorn, simply = smell
Feeling the body against the chair, simply= sensation
Tasting popcorn saltiness, simply = taste
Hearing basketball narration, simply = sound
Thought about game outcomes, simply = thought

Seeing carpet vacuuming, simply = image color
Smelling dusty smell, simply = smell
Feeling vacuum handle, simply = sensation
Tasting nothing, simply = no taste
Hearing vacuum motor, simply = sound
Thought about finishing vacuuming quickly, simply = thought