What is this?

[sittingfrog]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There seems to be nothing in experience indicating a self... in the five senses that's all they are. There is a process that creates the concept of self. Seeing that there is no self is like a never ending cycle that keeps repeating itself... there is still a sense of someone who wants to see the end of itself, while clearly that's impossible.

What are you looking for at LU?
Don't know... it's hard to point my finger and say there is the self but subtle effects of believing in a self still. I'm hoping to find out where there are fixations... probably no definite end to this in one sense.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Someone who can point to my fixations that I'm overseeing. I have run out of the low hanging beliefs to question and need a new perspective. I've also lost the initial excitement and seeking... it's all less serious now.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? Not a spiritual person in the conventional sense. Intense seeker for the past couple of years... self seeking self sounds funny now.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[poppyseed]

Hi sittingfrog
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[sittingfrog]

Hi Rali,

It's nice to e-meet you and thanks for being my guide :)

(is that what you want me to call you?)

You can call me Ben or sittingfrog.

What time zone are in?

PST (Pacific UTC-8)

If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.

Let's do it!

Love,
Ben

[poppyseed]

Hi Ben

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

PST (Pacific UTC-8)

I'm GMT+2. We have some difference but we'll manage

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[sittingfrog]

Hi Rali,

My responses are a bit short but I kept them honest and I hope my response doesn't come across as flippant. Let me know if you'd like to see longer responses.

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

In one sense, nothing in particular, as there has always been no separate self. So everything continues as before. In a more day-to-day sense, priorities will probably change. If you don’t have to maintain a ‘me vs world’ relationship, maybe you’ll make different decisions in life.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

Life to be a little lighter… see things as they are and not add pain on top of pain.

3. What do you want not to happen?

There is not much I can say here. Whatever happens, happens.

4. What are you hoping for?

Simpler life :)

5. What is missing?

Nothing is missing from life but changes occur. Where would something missing be hiding?

[poppyseed]

Hi Ben
Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary.

Now…
If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Love
Rali

[sittingfrog]

Hi Rali,

Thanks for your feedback. Here is what I have for the follow-up questions:

If you look for the I, what is there?

There is a mental image of a body from a third-person point of view. There is also a body sensation in the face.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision-maker, or a witness, what comes up?

The question that comes up is “Then what am I?” And if there is no decision maker/witness why is there a point of view? Why am I not experiencing things from everyone’s point of view?

Where exactly did you look?

In the thoughts, visual field and body sensation.

What exactly did you find?

Thoughts referring to an “I”. Physical sensations that are localized… for example, there is only physical sensation from one pair of arms sticking out not all pairs of arms that are seen.

Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Thoughts are pretty repetitive in referring to an I but they don’t seem to be pointing to anything other than other thoughts. In the visual field, there is no inherent difference between what’s considered my body and other objects… just lights and colors. In the body sensations, however, they feel exclusive to an I.

Love,
Ben

[poppyseed]

Hi Ben

Thank you for your answers. That gives me an idea where to start.
But before we do let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:
If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.


Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's color, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, color(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[sittingfrog]

Hi Rali,

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

That makes sense.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?)

The sound / word apple doesn’t carry any information relating to the experience of apple (visual, physical sense, etc), so I would say it’s just a label and through that label, the apple is not known. Similarly the thought "I know that's an apple" doesn't seem to refer to anything other than the thought itself.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

There are no lines between the apple and the page in the visual and sensory information. There are just colors and a cognitive categorization/labelling of a part of that visual field as the apple. Apple can not be found in the five senses.

Love,
Ben

[poppyseed]

Hi Ben

There are no lines between the apple and the page in the visual and sensory information. There are just colors and a cognitive categorization/labelling of a part of that visual field as the apple. Apple can not be found in the five senses.

Very good!
All words are symbols. They are not reality. Reality is what actually is, regardless of the absence or the presence of any symbol or word. Reality is what still exists after we stopped thinking about it.

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (sensing)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.
Love
Rali

[sittingfrog]

Hi Rali,

That was a very interesting practice. Thank you :)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

The feeling of rain on my head, simply = sensing
Drops of water on my glasses, simply = seeing
Thinking my vision going to get blurred, simply = thinking
“Stupid me should have brought an umbrella”, simply = thinking
Planning how to convince my daughter to go home early, simply = thinking
Telling my daughter to wrap up and go home, simply = hearing
Feeling my lips move while I talk to her, simply = sensing
The smell of rain = smelling
Wishing today was sunny like yesterday, simply = thinking
The tightness in my upper chest, while I wish the above, simply = sensing


Love,
Ben

[poppyseed]

Hi Ben

Very good! I can see you understand how to look.
For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?
Love
Rali

[sittingfrog]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for these questions.

A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?

-No, there is nothing other than thoughts.

Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?

-No, nothing other than the thought appears. A separate thinker is just the next thought in a seris of thoughts.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

-No, they appear on their own accord.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

-This is a weird one for me to answer… it’s referring to a thought in the past which doesn’t really exist, besides a thought about it now. It doesn’t seem possible to think about thinking… it’s just one at a time. But the short answer is no :)

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?

-No entity or thing regulates or interacts with thoughts in any manner. This includes attention… there are no compartments to the experience… so there is nothing to choose from or focus the attention on. The flow of thoughts does not change (and is always changing).

Where do thoughts appear from? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

-They appear out of nowhere. I would say they are neither random nor structured… both of those concepts are thoughts. Outside of the thought context, thoughts don’t seem to be any particular way.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:

-The keyboard feels cold under my fingers
-Wonder what I’m going to think next
-My next thought would be great
-[visual thought of seeing myself laughing]
-That’s the fifth thought

Could you predict the order of their appearance?

-Absolutely not, LMAO.

Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?

-No

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

-You can’t prevent a thought from appearing… you won’t know of a thought until after it appears, so it’s too late to stop it. There also don’t seem to be a mechanism for stopping thoughts.

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.

-This is another weird one for me. The start, end and middle of a thought seem to only exist in a second thought about that thought. The thought would always be exactly as long as it is. Grammar rules are very conceptual. This thought is just as complete as.

Are thoughts 100% true?

-They only seem to be true as they relate to other thoughts and even then they’re not always true. Thoughts may or may not agree or oppose with other thoughts and that’s about it.

What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

- Just a collection of appearances… five senses + thoughts… not sure if I’d call it what I am… to be 100% exact, this question can’t be answered in words. It would be paradoxical to think about and write the answer to this. I think the best answer is just silence and immersion in the senses.

[poppyseed]

Hi Ben

Very good observations! I really enjoyed reading your answers!

- Just a collection of appearances… five senses + thoughts… not sure if I’d call it what I am… to be 100% exact, this question can’t be answered in words. It would be paradoxical to think about and write the answer to this. I think the best answer is just silence and immersion in the senses.

Good! But just in case… Are the senses and thinking personal? What identifies with them?
Focus on the feeling of am-ness/being, aliveness.
Can you tell if there is a being or just being?
Is life happening to a being or as being?
Is that “aliveness” any kind of object or subject? Is it even a human?
Is it what you've taken as "you"?

If you look for the I, what is there?

There is a mental image of a body from a third-person point of view. There is also a body sensation in the face.

Let explore the “body” :)
Exercises:
1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear
2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.
Love
Rali

[sittingfrog]

Hi Rali,

Are the senses and thinking personal? What identifies with them?

-No, they are not personal. The appearance only appears to itself with no gap. There is no identity or identifying with senses outside of thoughts.

Focus on the feeling of am-ness/being, aliveness.
Can you tell if there is a being or just being?

-There is nothing outside of being, no inside and no border… so being is just being.

Is life happening to a being or as being?

-Life is happening as being… life, happening, being all the same.

Is that “aliveness” any kind of object or subject? Is it even a human?

-Not object or subject… in fact there is nothing alive (as opposed to dead).

Is it what you've taken as "you"?

-Anything taken as “me” is something observed and can’t be me. “Me” as a concept is the six senses or the observer of them but in actuality it can’t exist in any form that can be observed or talked about… any attempt to describe a “me” will make the described ‘not me’.

1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear

-There is just coldness. No cold object, no can, no finger or skin or nerves… just the body sensation. Without conceptualization the coldness has no location and no boundaries… it’s just in the middle of no where and everywhere at the same time. I’m not sure what you mean by the “details”. There is texture to the experience but no particular order they appear in… it’s more of a fluid change, constantly changin… perhaps like how background noise constantly changes.

2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

-No there is no sense of height, size shape or form at all. The physical sensation can’t be located or even related to a specific part of the body, without thoughts. No boundaries where the body starts or ends.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?

-No boundary. There is just a single sensation appearing, without any traces of skin or chair.

Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?

-There is no body outside of thoughts.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

-The label is obviously a thought referring to other thoughts. The memory of a shape in the mirror, the knowledge that the two long things sticking out the sides are called arms and are part of the body… the labels for the body parts etc. In the actual experience, no body exists… no separate body exists with any sort of boundaries.

Can the 'body' do things?

-In the direct experience it’s just a constantly changing appearance… let’s say in the visual field, while “picking up a glass of water” it’s just changes in colors and light (and even that’s saying too much) in the experience there is no actual hand, glass or water and so nothing separate to act on anything else. So nothing is done and the body does not do anything.

Beautiful dance of colors :)

Much love,
Ben