The spectator self, at the very least :)

[Daaf]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Hmmm, 1) No coherent or 'one' self; 2) No orchestrating (deciding, free will expressing) self; but 3) The shattered figments and fragments we call Self seem to be a direct consequence of both our history and the way we 'tend to process' things (if that makes sense).

What are you looking for at LU?
The final fall into freedom. Even the spectator or referencer Self to melt. The hope or objective is that the personalised session may lead to greater insight and integration than the more general theory.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Personalising the otherwise General. The mirror that shows you what you're somehow missing. The sudden insight or instinct that dissolves whatever 'Ego, ergo, error' wiring still exists. Borrowing from all the angles visited by the guide.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Mediation for last couple of years, and more profoundly for last 9 months, with great benefits ('the good is even better and the bad is less bad').

LSD when younger (39 now) which led to being (even) less judgemental, and very much self (and other) accepting.

Fully understanding that much transcends our understanding. Not necessarily requiring definitive answers.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[poppyseed]

Hi daaf
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[Daaf]

Hi Rali,

Wonderful that it's you since you just guided my brother, Mick.

I'm ready.

And, yes, life will happen (over the WE); double baptism of my 2 youngest daughters (I have 4 in total), and planning to make it a 3-day celebration :).

Very excited.

Thanks again!

All my love,
David

[poppyseed]

Hi David

Wonderful that it's you since you just guided my brother, Mick.

Wonderful!! :)

What time zone are in?

Should I presume that you also live in Belgium (GMT +2)?

And, yes, life will happen (over the WE); double baptism of my 2 youngest daughters (I have 4 in total), and planning to make it a 3-day celebration :).

No worries! Thank you for letting me know! Enjoy :)

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[Daaf]

Should I presume that you also live in Belgium (GMT +2)?

Yes; thanks!

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

Nothing, and everything. Nothing in the sense that my mind will still hijack my being. Everything in the sense that I will have integrated that thoughts don't define me. A bit lighter, with some 'work' or 'play' to do to embody it after realising it.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

More freedom even. Less fear/ anger perhaps (in the 'my ego feels threatened and since my entire being resists being either controlled or challenged, I lash out in anger, and I'm great at anger and I feel great doing the 'anger-dance')

3. What do you want not to happen?

Hmmm, don't see what could happen that I would want not to happen.

4. What are you hoping for?

To only be dancing, all the time (i.e. nothing to disturb me).

5. What is missing?

Too much in my head. Mostly the future (sometimes the past, which is worse)

[poppyseed]

Hi David
Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary

Now…
If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Love
Rali

[Daaf]

Hi Rali,

Thanks & I hear you. Expectations (and analysis) are what sours the party; any party. In its absence, sheer nirvana.

Here we go:

If you look for the I, what is there?

That guy that appraises things in a certain light, in a certain way. While I can't pinpoint the location and totally understand to what extent that 'fragmented self' is only on the receiving end of things; it still is.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

I get that; as these things are just happening and cannot be attached to a unified self. At the same time, at its basic level, living means that all these things are happening; and living is feeling, and thinking, and doing. And these things, while not under our control still seem to have a relation to an actor, or acting forces which draw on patterns and habits.

Where exactly did you look?

What exactly did you find?

Aie, aie, aie, I looked in my mind. Analysing. If I look, I can pick up its trail in my head, in my chest, on my skin especially in the wind. So, in that sense, I get it out of my mind and into the world. Yet that's when the mind is muzzled only...

Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

When in my 'mind', it's this feeling of a dense, clogged space inside my head, between the temples. But when interacting in an engaged manner it's a laughing wave bursting from the back of my throat and exploding into lightness in my head. The wind on my skin is where I can check out of the head. Motion sometimes too, running, dancing - I do it all the time - but often I'm still living in this cage up there where too much plotting for too little reward seems to be going on.

[Daaf]

Thanks a lot, Rali!!!

And all my love to you too!

[poppyseed]

Hi David

Thank you for your answers. That gives me an idea where to start :)

But before we do, let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's color, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, color(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


Love
Rali

[Daaf]

Hi Rali,

Thanks a lot! And, sorry, busy day yesterday (Home to Paris to Ghent and back).

Ok, got you. the world as is, before labelling. Let's try.

right?

Right!

However, is 'an apple' actually known?

No, only its characteristics as can be perceived by our senses. Fragmented yet vivid and colourful experience. No meaning. Just meanderings.

(Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Just the thought. The apple is in reality but the combination of these characteristics filtered by our specific senses.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No

Thanks!

Love,
David

[poppyseed]

Hi David

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No

Very good!

All words are symbols. They are not reality. Reality is what actually is, regardless of the absence or the presence of any symbol or word. Reality is what still exists after we stopped thinking about it. The word ‘apple’ is just a symbolic representation of something that is real. The actual experience (DE) remains even in the absence of labels. In this case, the word points to the same experience of colours, shapes, smells, tastes, textures, what we collectively call as an apple.

While we are talking about labels, notice the difference between the different types. We have words for experiences (through the five senses), like ‘apple’, and we have words that label something that cannot be experienced through the five senses. These ‘things’ can only be thought of, but never experienced, since they do not actually exist. They just imagined. Like the thoughts of Santa, weather, economy, or country. That is the difference between experience and fiction.

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.
Love
Rali

[Daaf]

Hi Rali,

Thanks! I felt it pervade through my daily hustle and bustle. Get rid of the label, strip the meaning and all is DE.

Ok, here we go:

Drinking water, simply = taste, touch
Typing, simply = touch
Watching the flowers in the trees, simply = image/ colour and form
Excitement about the 3-day party starting later today, simply = thought and sensation
Worrying about an investment in difficulty, simply = thought and sensation
Listening to the people on the Call I muted myself on, simply = hearing
Feeling the urge to make my point on that same Call, simply = sensation
Spinning my future incessantly around in my head, simply = thought and sensation
Thinking about whether there are enough examples here, simply = thought

But is there ever thought without sensation?

Thanks a lot!!

Enjoy the WE!

All my love,
David

May be out till Monday... Not sure though.

[poppyseed]

Hi David

Couple of corrections…

Drinking water, simply = taste, touch
Typing, simply = touch

Drinking water, simply = taste, sensation
Typing, simply = sensation
"Touch" is a label for sensation, but we’ll see about it later…

But is there ever thought without sensation?

Well, all feelings/emotions are a combination of sensations and thoughts. However, there are neutral thoughts that are not linked to sensations like: “The grass is green”, although sometimes it can be linked with sensations “excitement” or "joy". The link between sensations and thoughts is pretty much conditional/illusional, as you will see later. In a way, there are always sensations ("heart beating", "breathing", etc), but only thought content gives them a label and creates further stories about them.

We can start with sensations if you like…
1. Please take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear

2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.

May be out till Monday... Not sure though.

No worries! Enjoy the Baptism and have a wonderful weekend!
Love
Rali

[Daaf]

Hi Rali,

Sorry for delay in replying. Big celebration over the WE! We had 28 people (incl. many children and babies) sleep over on the Saturday... Happiness...

Then chasing my own tail a bit yesterday.

Thanks a lot for the replies! Makes sense.

a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear

Complicated one: It's 'A', but at the same time it seems to jump from the fingers into the brain, lodged in the centre between the temples, in a place that seems somehow (slightly) specific to the sensation 'cold'

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No

Does the body have a weight or volume?

No, just scattered sensations

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No, just scattered sensations

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?

1 sensation

Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?

My sensations appearing in my consciousness and relating therefore to my body, otherwise I wouldn't feel them. But that's thinking. So, a body, a tapestry or a vessel of ever-changing, short-lived sensations.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Scattered, transitory sensations that can appear in connection with the body and how this body interacts with the physical world, or is influenced by emotions.

Can the 'body' do things?

No; the body as can be experienced can only consist of sensations that appear independently out of nowhere, are ever changing and moving and disappearing.

The 'tricky' bit is that often body-sensations are accompanied by a sensation in the mind that may well be influenced by the 'label' as well as the experience itself.

Thank you so much!

All my love,
David

[poppyseed]

Hi David

Sorry for delay in replying. Big celebration over the WE! We had 28 people (incl. many children and babies) sleep over on the Saturday... Happiness...

Then chasing my own tail a bit yesterday.

Life happens… I’m glad it went well and you had fun!

Complicated one: It's 'A', but at the same time it seems to jump from the fingers into the brain, lodged in the centre between the temples, in a place that seems somehow (slightly) specific to the sensation 'cold'

So are there two sensations (!! without thought) – “fingers” and “cold can”? Where is the border that separates the one from the other? How are “brain” and “temples” experienced in DE? Do sensations have a location or the location is their label? Watch like a hawk! Close your eyes and check – where are fingers? What are “fingers” with eyes closed and open?

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation? How is body-chair different from cold-fingers?

1 sensation

Very good! Now why is here only one sensation but two in the first exercise?

Scattered, transitory sensations that can appear in connection with the body and how this body interacts with the physical world, or is influenced by emotions.

Yes! “Body” is a complex label pointing to sensations, colours (with eyes open), smells (odour), tastes (if you lick it :)

The 'tricky' bit is that often body-sensations are accompanied by a sensation in the mind that may well be influenced by the 'label' as well as the experience itself.

What is a “mind”? How is “mind” experienced in DE?

Love
Rali