I've exhausted the search, now it's time to be real

[tk12443]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Intellectually, I understand and can talk about the fact that "I" do not exist. I can use words like inherent existence, emptiness, presence, the one, Buddha nature, nirvana, etc. There is not a separate self, a separate me who is in control of this particular body. Knowing this, I still am stuck in rumination/catastrophization pretty deep.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for help (through pointing) to see through the delusion of self. Again, I can use my rational mind to understand and gain knowledge about emptiness and a lack of inherent existence, but I think my cup if full and I need guidance from someone who can perhaps catalyze an actual realization.

I know that there is nothing more that needs to be gained. I know that seeking is in itself part of the delusion and with Youtube is now a pretty serious potential addiction if you can't drop it and step through the gate. There's always more videos, always more awakening talk.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I think that a relationship or a conversation with a real person is far better than solitary practice at times because it allows the "student" to verbalize out loud beliefs that have been rattling around and left unchecked. Sometimes just speaking a belief outload makes one realize the futility of that belief. Sometimes the criticism or push-back from another person can shock you into really questioning beliefs that in reality, you may have not even spent much energy developing in the first place.

So I guess my expectation (I have one only because of this prompt) is to have a series of moments with a real person - who is ahead of me on the path - that will allow for a space to exist where I am held accountable in a way that I cannot seem to do alone. So that I can release beliefs and see reality.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I'm now 50 years old and have been on the Buddhist path since around 22. I've had some exposure to Zen and was a student of Bardor Tulku Rinpoche in the Tibetan tradition for about 10 years. I've read dozens of books - the majority of them Tibetan in flavor, received transmissions, and made a pilgrimage to Tibet to visit my Rinpoche's monastery in 2011. Ultimately, the cultural aspect of Tibetan Buddhism and perhaps the language barrier made it difficult for me to truly grasp. I dropped practice altogether about 5 years ago and during the pandemic was quite content just living out my life as it was unfolding.

Certain personal circumstances occurred over the last year that undermined my belief structure and when I was spinning, I reached for a life-line and it turned out that Thic Nat Han's book on the Heart Sutra was what appeared and subsequently blew my mind. Soon after that, I stumbled across Angelo Dilulo's manual on Awakening and read it. While reading it, I found myself confronted with the news that my marriage of 20 years was over. My wife was in fact a lesbian - something that I did not see coming. After a week or so of groundless free-fall, I had the realization that the only way I could get relief from bewilderment was to let go and really start to question my expectations I had intricately built over the years. Amazingly, the next day I woke up and realized that the pain had shifted into something like unconditional love and a period of profound equanimity persisted for about 3 weeks. Whether I had experienced a first awakening or Kensho, I'm not sure but it was rather beautiful and when it began to recede and contract, I definitely felt sadness and many other emotions return in full force. From this point on, my conviction to persist on the path of inquiry and to dive into shadow work was cemented and has become the main focus of my daily activity. I have accumulated enough, now I just need to do it. The fetters make sense to me and the clarity is like nothing I ever experienced in the dharma previously.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[poppyseed]

Hi TK
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[tk12443]

Hi TK (is that what you want me to call you?)

Yes, TK is fine.

[tk12443]

What time zone are in?

I live in New York - my time zone is east coast/EST USA

[tk12443]

My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Thanks so much Rali, I really appreciate your help and yes, I'd like for you to be my guide. Ive read through the FAQs and am currently reading Gateless Gatecrashers. I work from home and can commit to a daily conversation.

TK

[poppyseed]

Hi TK
Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

I live in New York - my time zone is east coast/EST USA

I'm GMT+2. We have some difference but we'll manage

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[tk12443]

Rali - I'm subscribed and am committed to this process. Thanks again for your help. I have your 5 questions and am about to go on a walk with my dog in the woods. I will post again later today.

TK

[tk12443]

What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

Fundamentally, nothing will be different. If anything, perhaps the thoughts that arise won’t be thought of as my reality. Won’t be so sticky and will no longer have so much power over feelings, and moods, and expectations.

What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

On the one hand, I don’t really have a goal with this because it just feels like another section of the path - and on the other hand, I want it to work. I guess I just want the time spent seeking to be used for living. Even though seeking is living, it can also be consuming and an unproductive thought generator.

What do you want to happen?

I want to participate in this life at a level of awareness that allows the free flow of creativity. As an artist, I feel like I already get to do this quite a bit but I’d like to be more able to accept the human-ness of the people around me. I want to understand the difference between happiness and joy. I would like to deepen my relationship with unconditional love. I want to relax.

What are you hoping for?

I got to experience a couple of weeks of equanimity earlier this year. I’m hoping for more of that even though rationally, I know that that is just another train of thoughts.

What is missing?

Nothing is missing. I’m healthy, relatively comfortable, and open. And its spring here :)

[poppyseed]

Hi TK
Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary.

What do you want to happen?

I want to participate in this life at a level of awareness that allows the free flow of creativity. As an artist, I feel like I already get to do this quite a bit but I’d like to be more able to accept the human-ness of the people around me. I want to understand the difference between happiness and joy. I would like to deepen my relationship with unconditional love. I want to relax.

The question was actualy "3. What do you want not to happen?", so please answer it again.
It would be easier and typo-proof if you copy and paste the questions and then answer them with the quoting function.
Now…
If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Love
Rali

[tk12443]

What do you want not to happen?

As the seeker, I came across a couple of accounts of people talking about certain stages (or a stage in the awakening process) when one’s visual perception views reality as being flat. I also have listened to several discussions on the topic of reality containing no real distance.

When I look for an answer to this question, I kind of have to reach for an answer for I am at a point in this life where I’m more open and free to change than ever before. I don’t really have much fear in the same way that one could have some trepidation prior to ingesting a psychedelic for example.

If I had to answer, I would say as a visual artist who paints large oil paintings, I wonder how perceiving no distance or seeing the world as flat would effect what I'm able to put on a canvas. Or even want to put something on canvas. With that said, my particular style already kind of flattens the world and uses illusion to represent 3-D space in a very graphic way, so perhaps it was meant to be and may even enhance my art.

[tk12443]

I'll respond to the new questions in a bit - gotta get the kids to school!

Thanks Rali, I really appreciate you.

TK

[tk12443]

If you look for the I, what is there?

When I look for the “I” there are memories of the one who was always planning, always reacting, always swimming upstream - lots of thoughts arise when I ask the question. Then, those thoughts are often bumped out of the way with more thoughts that remind me to be present. When I look for the “I”, I see thoughts that say thoughts are just thoughts - like clouds passing in the sky. When I look for the “I” it appears as if the source of my visual field is outside of my body whereas normally, the view is from my face.

I can never locate the “I” and I know deep down that there is no real, separate TK that gets to bring order to my little section of the world. A lot of the time there is peace and unconditional love flows freely but from time-to-time, life throws a curveball that disrupts this understanding. This kind of disruption sometimes can cause instability that gives rise to my emotion body. My emotion body is complex (saying this generally and not as a victim) and is energized by past traumas. Even though eventually the energy of these types of storms pass, It is still hard to not feel a self that has been attacked.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

To me, doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or witness all mean the same thing as “I” or me, or self with a small “s”. What comes up when the thought arises to answer this question is the conundrum that is my sticking point - that is to say, where is the key to getting this realization to a level that doesn’t falter. To a place that is irreversible. This is the wall for me. I know there is nothing more to know or gain. I don’t need any more information. Why does re-identification happen and why is it so hard to let go of?

The swirling thought storms always come and then go - have always come and then gone. Is this just how it is and to hope for a future moment when this doesn’t happen is delusion? Will “I” be able to observe it the next time and not get caught in the loop of thinking that those feelings are hurting “me” specifically?

I know these are thoughts and there’s no reason to think one should get rid of them or hope they go in a certain direction. I feel a bit like I’m on a roller coaster - not that it is more struggle than it should be for I do feel generally happy and satisfied and present most of the time.

I should drop the belief that letting go of “separate self” has the effect of reducing the number of pendulum swings between feeling positive and feeling negative. Its not about reducing the frequency or even the depth of the emotional experience on the upswing or downswing - its about just going on the ride and not taking it personally because nature doesn’t give two shits about personal. It is what it is - and there’s no reason to push or pull to make it otherwise because even when you do, it still is what it is.

100% acceptance must be the answer, but does 2 days in a tail spin from being triggered mean defeat or is it just naturally a nervous system that got energized by an event? And just needs a certain amount of “time” to dissipate?

I guess those are the thoughts that arose when prompted by your questions. I’m typing this out on a laptop sitting in a screened porch with my dog and the weather is sunny and 80 degrees. For all intents and purposes, and absolutely beautiful situation. Of course all of the sensations that accompany this environment are great on many levels. Birds chirping, warm breeze on my legs, cold water to sip, a comfortable Adirondack chair pushing back on my butt and back. It’s all beautiful. Even this assignment is beautiful.

[poppyseed]

Hi TK

As the seeker, I came across a couple of accounts of people talking about certain stages (or a stage in the awakening process) when one’s visual perception views reality as being flat. I also have listened to several discussions on the topic of reality containing no real distance.

You see, this is what I mean when I said that everyone has some “idea” about awakening. Let’s look at this… How can something like seeing change if there never was an “I” – it’s not that we’ll do some practices or inquiry and it will disappear – it just never existed in the first place. So, why do you expect things to change? The only change that you can expect is a change in perception.

Thank you for your honest replies with respect to the self, they give me an idea where to start :)
Before we do let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:
If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what color they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what color they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:
Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's color, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, color(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Color (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
R

[tk12443]

Good morning Rali :)

So, why do you expect things to change?

Change happens in every moment and that will not change. No expectations.

1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what color they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what color they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

yes, 100% certain. Even though there are definitely flip-flops on at the moment (I looked).

Direct or Actual Experience is:
Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Seeing, hearing, tasting, and smelling were always obvious. Realization that emotions have two components - sensing plus thoughts just occurred. Realization that thoughts themselves are real but the content is not just occurred. Just like that.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

The apple cannot be known, only experienced for "known" implies some content of thought. The thought is real but the "apple" is not real. "Apple" cannot be found in actual experience.

[poppyseed]

Hi TK

yes, 100% certain. Even though there are definitely flip-flops on at the moment (I looked).

Good! :)

So, why do you expect things to change?

Change happens in every moment and that will not change. No expectations.

Change is part of life – the dynamic side of it, the flow. What I meant here was a change in the nature of reality. The nature of reality cannot change, but how we interpret reality can. Everything will happen the same way it always has, but the perception of it (the content of thoughts) will change with the inquiry – when it is seen what is actually here and what is not. A mirage of an oasis might seem real until it is inspected and it is seen that it is not there and it was never there, only the desert. Is that clear?

The apple cannot be known, only experienced for "known" implies some content of thought. The thought is real but the "apple" is not real. "Apple" cannot be found in actual experience.

Very good!!

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.
Love
Rali