Revealing the Real

[AlreadySo]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is no "self" separate from life, life is just expressing itself. The felt sense of a “me” is an illusion constructed from thoughts, emotions, and body sensations. There is a belief that “I” am a separate individual in control of “my” life. The “I” is a point of reference, there is no person in there.

What are you looking for at LU?
I have just started with Perenille Damore’s teaching on the Ten Fetters. I am looking for a guide to help me work through the first three fetters so that I may realize that inherently, there is no real "self".

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
From a guided conversation, I would hope for guidance in directly seeing and overcoming; obstacles, false assumptions, beliefs, and identifications. Ultimately, I would hope to stop believing I’m a separate "self".

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Twenty years ago without any spiritual background, I had a pre-awakening (a temporary shift in identity of no self) for three days followed by two years of mystical experiences. Wanting to understand what I had experienced, over the years I read books, watched videos, and attended retreats with Adyashanti, Ravi Shankar in the Art of Living, Mooji, and Angelo Dilullo. I just started Fetter Work using Perenille Damore’s teaching. Six months ago I was made more aware of self-inquiry and read the book “Liberation Unleashed” and found I would greatly benefit from one-on-one guidance. I have meditated inconsistently for the past two decades.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[JonathanR]

Hello AlreadySo

Is there a name that you might prefer me to use?

Welcome to LU. My name is Jon.

I read your introductory words and I'm offering to guide you.

I would require you to place the Ten Fetters (or any other spiritual system) to one side during our conversation here until the successful conclusion of your inquiry here. What I mean by this is that we would need to focus properly together on seeing that there is no self. To allow this to stand a chance of succeeding requires a very open approach in which nothing is assumed and expectations of particular outcomes are dropped. Do you think you can agree to this? Please say if you do not think that it will be possible?

There's no problem whatsoever with your returning to pursue Fetters, or any other line of enquiry afterwords.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

With warm regards

Jon .

[JonathanR]

Hello again,

My wording may have seemed slightly overbearing when I said that "I would require you ..etc

A better way of putting this might be that "it's important and necessary to put various teachings or systems of inquiry to one side".

Regards

Jon

[AlreadySo]

Hello Jon,

Is there a name that you might prefer me to use?

I will use the name "Dariel".

I would require you to place the Ten Fetters (or any other spiritual system) to one side during our conversation here until the successful conclusion of your inquiry here. What I mean by this is that we would need to focus properly together on seeing that there is no self. To allow this to stand a chance of succeeding requires a very open approach in which nothing is assumed and expectations of particular outcomes are dropped. Do you think you can agree to this? Please say if you do not think that it will be possible?

Yes, I can agree to place all spiritual systems aside until the successful conclusion of my inquiry here.

I am letting you know that I live in the USA in the state of California so that you are aware of our time differences.

I look forward to having you as my guide.

All the best,
Dariel

[JonathanR]

Hi Daniel

. Yes, I can agree to place all spiritual systems aside until the successful conclusion of my inquiry here

That's great. It will definitely help you. It can be tempting to listen to gurus or teachers , videos or reading books, especially if there's already a strong idea about where you'd like to end up (so to speak). It's really enormously helpful to drop any expectations , if possible. This can hardly be stressed enough at the start.

. I am letting you know that I live in the USA in the state of California so that you are aware of our time differences.

Ok many thanks for this info. I live in the UK. That's a big time difference but it shouldn't matter. What matters more is regularity of communication. Once a day is ideal. Even more often is ok. Breaks of a week at a time really slows things down. But of course there can be times when one of us may not be able to post for a few days, in which case let's let each other know that?

. I look forward to having you as my guide

And I look forward to walking this path with you, inquiring with you into no self.

A good place to start is to ask you take a look at any expectations that you may have of this process? List any and all, even "silly" or apparently insignificant ones can be worth mentioning.

The other thing is...please let me know what is your current understanding of what "you" are?

Write in as much detail as you see fit.

Thanks

All the best

Jon

[AlreadySo]

Hello Jon,
For clarification, the name I am using is DARIEL, pronounced DA-REE-AL. It is spelled with an ( R ) not an ( N ).

Breaks of a week at a time really slows things down. But of course there can be times when one of us may not be able to post for a few days, in which case let's let each other know that?

Of course. If I know that I will be unable to post for a few days, I will let you know.

A good place to start is to ask you take a look at any expectations that you may have of this process? List any and all, even "silly" or apparently insignificant ones can be worth mentioning.

If by “process” you mean the inquiry I will be doing with you, I have no expectations. I would hope by the end of our time together, I would have experientially seen through the illusion of a separate “self” enough so that I would definitively and unequivocally know that this is not who or what I am and that there is no separate “self” and there never was one. Thus making it all that much easier to not buy into this belief when it asserts itself again.

I see inquiry with you as a stepping stone. The first step in a process that could take months to years of seeing and unbinding from thoughts, emotions, beliefs, and conditioning while at the same time revealing more and more of what’s real.

The other thing is...please let me know what is your current understanding of what "you" are?

“I” is a label for an illusory entity, (a “self”) separate from the whole of life that is believed to have agency, over the body/mind apparatus. Identifying as the “I” is mostly my experience. Rarely when deeply relaxed, the “I” is not identified with and my understanding and experience of what I am is a mystery that can’t be defined but at best be labeled life itself.

All the Best,
DARIEL

[JonathanR]

Hi Dariel

. For clarification, the name I am using is DARIEL, pronounced DA-REE-AL. It is spelled with an ( R ) not an ( N ).

I actually did write Dariel but predictive text must have switched it to Daniel , as it did again just a moment ago and I had to correct it.

. Of course. If I know that I will be unable to post for a few days, I will let you know.

Thank you. I will do the same.

. by “process” you mean the inquiry I will be doing with you, I have no expectations. I would hope by the end of our time together, I would have experientially seen through the illusion of a separate “self” enough so that I would definitively and unequivocally know that this is not who or what I am and that there is no separate “self” and there never was one. Thus making it all that much easier to not buy into this belief when it asserts itself again.

Good,this is realistic. Provided there is no expectation that a particular sort of experience should manifest..

. I see inquiry with you as a stepping stone. The first step in a process that could take months to years of seeing and unbinding from thoughts, emotions, beliefs, and conditioning while at the same time revealing more and more of what’s real.

It cannot be predicted how no self will be experienced.

. Identifying as the “I” is mostly my experience.

This is where we must start then.

Right here and now the words on this screen are seen. But what is it that is doing the seeing?

Conventionally it is often said that "eyes" which are "the body" (aka "me") are doing the seeing.

So right here and now check this out. What is the immediate experience like?

Is there an experience of eyes doing seeing?

Is there an experience of a body doing seeing?

Is it simply seeing ?

. Rarely when deeply relaxed, the “I” is not identified with and my understanding and experience of what I am is a mystery that can’t be defined but at best be labeled life itself.

That is interesting. I wonder what it is that comes along to seemingly remove this mystery?

All the best

Jon

[AlreadySo]

Hello Jon,

Provided there is no expectation that a particular sort of experience should manifest..

It cannot be predicted how no self will be experienced.

Thank you for pointing this out. I don’t have any particular expectations for my experience (i.e. total bliss or love, thoughts to stop, the heavens opening up, trumpets playing, angels appearing, etc.). I believe that having expectations may hinder my experience.

Right here and now the words on this screen are seen. But what is it that is doing the seeing?

As I look for what is doing the seeing, I don’t find anything.

Conventionally it is often said that "eyes" which are "the body" (aka "me") are doing the seeing. So right here and now check this out. What is the immediate experience like?

The words on the screen are seen as well as everything else in the visual field. Sounds are heard of traffic, birds chirping, leaves rustling in the wind, and construction going on. A cool breeze is felt. As I look for what is doing the seeing, I don’t find anything.

Is there an experience of eyes doing seeing?

No.

Is there an experience of a body doing seeing?

No.

Is it simply seeing ?

Yes.

That is interesting. I wonder what it is that comes along to seemingly remove this mystery?

Focusing on thoughts, and emotions, and identifying as an “I” seemingly remove this mystery.

Thank you.
All the best,
Dariel

[JonathanR]

Hello Dariel

. Thank you for pointing this out. I don’t have any particular expectations for my experience (i.e. total bliss or love, thoughts to stop, the heavens opening up, trumpets playing, angels appearing, etc.). I believe that having expectations may hinder my experience.

Spot on.

. As I look for what is doing the seeing, I don’t find anything.

Interesting

. The words on the screen are seen as well as everything else in the visual field. Sounds are heard of traffic, birds chirping, leaves rustling in the wind, and construction going on. A cool breeze is felt. As I look for what is doing the seeing, I don’t find anything.

That's a good description. Yes of course, other sensations such as sounds may well be experienced at the same time. Did you notice any thoughts appearing?

It's safer not to answer from memory so have another go at this exercise right now and notice if thoughts appear whilst it's happening?

. Focusing on thoughts, and emotions, and identifying as an “I” seemingly remove this mystery.

Interesting observation. Do you notice if there is much choice or control over focusing on thoughts (or not)?

Thank you

Jon

[AlreadySo]

Hello Jon,

It's safer not to answer from memory so have another go at this exercise right now and notice if thoughts appear whilst it's happening?

Words on the screen are seen as well as objects in the periphery. There is no experience of eyes doing seeing. There is no experience of a body doing seeing. It is simply seeing. No thoughts appear whilst it’s happening.

Interesting observation. Do you notice if there is much choice or control over focusing on thoughts (or not)?

I notice that most of the time when thoughts arise the tendency is to become fixated on the content of the thoughts. But if I am vigilant and looking for thoughts to appear, I can put my focus on something else (i.e. what is in the visual field) instead of the thoughts.

All the best,
Dariel

[JonathanR]

Hi Dariel

. Words on the screen are seen as well as objects in the periphery. There is no experience of eyes doing seeing. There is no experience of a body doing seeing. It is simply seeing. No thoughts appear whilst it’s happening.

That's very straightforward.

Please now notice whatever is heard. This could be quiet sounds such as breathing , or louder sound such as birds singing, tools being used somewhere, voices somewhere. It doesn't matter what is heard it's all fine .
Now, what is doing the hearing? Is it 'ears' that hear, or a body hearing. Does hearing just happen directly (as it were) ?

Are any thoughts noticed as you try this?

. I notice that most of the time when thoughts arise the tendency is to become fixated on the content of the thoughts. But if I am vigilant and looking for thoughts to appear, I can put my focus on something else (i.e. what is in the visual field) instead of the thoughts.

In this case, what is doing the vigilance?

What is putting it's focus on something else?

Who or what can become fixated on thoughts?


Regards

Jon

[AlreadySo]

Hello Jon,

Please now notice whatever is heard. This could be quiet sounds such as breathing, or louder sound such as birds singing, tools being used somewhere, voices somewhere. It doesn't matter what is heard it's all fine.

There’s a repetitive crackling sound from the computer, the sound of an airplane, traffic passing by, a neighbor’s voice, and a constant high-frequency tone like the sound of a snowy television that’s not getting good reception.

Now, what is doing the hearing? Is it 'ears' that hear, or a body hearing. Does hearing just happen directly (as it were)?

Hearing just happens.

Are any thoughts noticed as you try this?

No.

In this case, what is doing the vigilance?

The action of vigilance is thought to be done by the illusory “I”.

What is putting its focus on something else?

When I look to see what is putting its focus on something else, there’s nothing there but a sense of spaciousness.

Who or what can become fixated on thoughts?

By looking, it has been discovered that there is no separate “I” or separate “self”. Fixation seemingly just happens, by who or what, is a mystery.

All the Best,
Dariel

[JonathanR]

Hello Dariel

Thank you for doing this hearing exercise.

. In this case, what is doing the vigilance?
The action of vigilance is thought to be done by the illusory “I”.

Does this trouble you? The idea that thought presents this idea that an "I" does the vigilance?

Is it necessary to get rid of thoughts?

. By looking, it has been discovered that there is no separate “I” or separate “self”. Fixation seemingly just happens, by who or what, is a mystery.

Is there a self that needs to prevent this from happening. Please look to find out?

Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing?

Try right now to prevent thoughts.


Regards

Jon

[AlreadySo]

Hello Jon,

Does this trouble you? The idea that thought presents this idea that an "I" does the vigilance?

Having the idea doesn't trouble me but believing the idea does as this requires belief in a separate “I” which seems to keep me from experiencing the truth and what’s real.

Is it necessary to get rid of thoughts?

No.

Is there a self that needs to prevent this from happening. Please look to find out?

There is no separate self when looked for.

Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing?

No.

Try right now to prevent thoughts.

As much as tried, thoughts can’t be prevented.

All the best,
Dariel

[JonathanR]

Hello Dariel

. Does this trouble you? The idea that thought presents this idea that an "I" does the vigilance?

Having the idea doesn't trouble me but believing the idea does as this requires belief in a separate “I” which seems to keep me from experiencing the truth and what’s real.

What does the believing ?

Does it seem that believing just happens?


Is there some way to prevent the thought "I" from appearing ?

Are there moments of 'waking up' again (after a period of believing in "I"?). If so who or what makes this waking happen?

All the best

Jon