Fetter Freedom

[Juliane]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand fully that there is no “me”, that “I” am nothing and simultaneously everything. This emptiness is indeed the most peaceful understanding. The experience of the world of form without the filter of "me" is absolute freedom. My highest priority in life is full liberation, to dis-identify from the illusion of a separate self completely.

What are you looking for at LU?
From my earliest memories of being in the world (probably like every baby/child) I understood I wasn’t a separate self. As I grew into a toddler I noticed others such as my parents did not appear to share this perspective. There was nothing wrong with this, no judgement, it was solely an observation. At 4 or 5 years old, it occurred to me to ask, well then, “Who Am I?” There was trepidation, however, due to an innate understanding that posing this question would cause me to fully experience, to come to face to face, with the fact "I" was indeed nothing.

I summed up the courage, however. Truth has always been my passion. And after some procrastination finally I asked, “Who Am I?”

Shockingly, I totally disappeared! And so did the rest of the world! I had NO idea that would happen, and, obviously, I can’t put words to this, but there was no “me”, no body, no more anything - no world! Just attribute-less infinity. Pure Consciousness. There was, however, some remaining thread, an understanding that "staying" past a certain point meant no option of return. Yet this was attribute-less infinity beyond time and space so please forgive this dualistic linear time-based language being used to explain something unexplainable. The apparent choice was made to return. A process I can’t describe brought me back, and once again I was there apparently sitting on my living room floor.

It never even occurred to me to discuss ANY of this with anyone, I suppose because I'd recognized they simply wouldn’t understand.

I repeated this process of asking “Who Am I”, disappearing and returning several times over the course of maybe a few months - and then stopped as I wondered if perhaps I was doing something I shouldn’t be - there was a fear, some sort of understanding of a risk it was quite possible not to be able to return. Being only four/five years of age I didn’t know what I was doing. The closest thing I can compare it to is a near death experience. However, I wasn’t holding my breath or doing anything to hurt myself - simply sitting on the living room floor, alone, in my beautiful family home inquiring “Who Am I?” and thereby experiencing the answer.

As an adult, I didn’t find out about Ramana Maharshi until I was around 46 years old. I was studying yoga at an ashram in South India when we were taken to visit Sri Ramanasramam. I was absolutely gobsmacked as I read about his experience on a plaque on the wall. My goodness! This was the first time I’d read or learned of someone experiencing something like what I had. However, he'd stayed in his body and continued to live life in that state. Whereas for me the whole world disappeared and then I’d returned to the world of form/body, and gone on to develop an ego (unfortunately). Though I've been obsessed with philosophy and spirituality all my life.

Though I know the truth, it often felt like I subsequently went backwards from this beautiful experience, becoming immersed in the illusion of a separate self/identity. Without describing my entire life, I grew up, developing an ego, suffering and eventually finding Zen Buddhism, then after discovering Ramana, finding Nisargadatta & Robert Adams, followed by Nonduality teachings on YouTube which led most recently, to discovering the Fetter Model. The Fetter Model very much speaks to the dilemma here; knowing the truth, yet still getting identified with the illusion frequently! It feels working through the Fetter Model will logically provide the tools to untie the knots holding the fake "me" in place.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Compassionate pointing and guidance through the ten stages in the Fetter Model. An ability to be completely vulnerable and honest about that which is preventing "me" from permanently dis-identifing from the illusion of a separate self.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I absolutely love meditation, practicing twice daily for 1-2 hours. I am also a yoga teacher and also practice yoga asana. I spent several years working with a Zen Buddhist Sangha however it seemed to not take people all the way. I absolutely love Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta and Robert Adams. The recent discovery of LU makes me feel there are a group of people out there who completely understand everything I've been obsessed with all my life:)

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Anastacia42]

Good morning!

Welcome. Here at LU forum we only guide through the First Fetter. With that the 2nd, Doubt & the 3rd Rites & Rituals usually fall. Then there's a teleconference group that is exploring the remaining Fetters.

So, why don't we start with "final" questions to see if any guiding on that is needed, then I can invite you to the Fetters group?

Asking "who am I?" so young sounds amazing to me.

You may get something from these 2 videos:

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

And let's check to see where you are:


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Also...
Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Thank you,

[Juliane]

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Good day Stacy!

Thank you very much for your reply. I am pleasantly surprised to have been assigned a guide so quickly. Please call me Juliane. I am in time zone EDT (Eastern Daylight Time North America).

I have watched all the recommended videos and will proceed to answer the questions you've sent next.

Thank you once again.

In loving kindness
Juliane

[Anastacia42]

Looking forward to your answers, Juliane.

Much love,

[Juliane]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no separate ‘self’, ‘me’ or ‘I’ at all, anywhere, in any way shape or form. There never has been. There is only the appearance of separation within the relative world of form, which itself is an illusion. There is no inside vs. outside. There is only that which never changes and cannot be described. All else is unreal.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Relatively speaking, the illusion of separate self begins to form in childhood. It is an amalgamation of conditioning (societal, familial, cultural, ancestral etc.), memories, experiences and stories, like a computer program of sorts which creates a fake persona/mask, a false identity often referred to as ego. The primary addiction beneath all addictions is to ego. The ego wants to survive and will do anything to perpetuate itself, thus its insatiable appetite and cause of all suffering. Of course this is all illusion, none of it is real.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

To see this is the greatest peace and freedom. Pure love. Contentment. Nothing needs to be any certain way. All is beautiful. There is no time. Ultimately there is actually no thing. Being identified with ego, on the other hand, is pure suffering. From ego, nothing is ever enough, something is always wrong- there is always unrest – no matter the life circumstance.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Well, “I” was quite young (4 or 5) and, therefore, fortunate enough to still be retaining the understanding of what “I” was without it being knowledge – it was preconceptual wisdom. What pushed “me” over the edge at that age to actually ask the question “Who Am I?” was curiousity and an innate obsession with truth. Also, witnessing the oddity the unnecessary seriousness and drama “adults” created, the oddity of having a name, the oddity that “others” considered it very important to pretend this being of “Juliane” as well as themselves were all separate. “I” saw through this and yet I also knew I was being pushed to play this part. As a consequence it occurred to me to look deeper into the issue via the question “Who Am I?”

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

It occurred to me to ask the question some time prior to my summing up the guts to actually ask! As in maybe days, weeks, perhaps months. This was all occurring within me, none of my family were aware – though I was an outgoing, vivacious, happy child, I just saw others weren’t tuning in to any of this so it didn’t remotely occur to share. One day, as I was sort of a courageous, daring sort, I just decided to finally do it. Sitting on my living room floor I finally asked, “Who Am I?”…

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

It wasn’t that I expected an answer. I somehow knew that by looking directly at the question I would experience the truth. Though I had no idea what would happen… I completely disappeared in every sense of the word! And so did the entire world! There was nothing. There was only consciousness. It was pure indescribable infinity. This is all beyond words, the “next part” very difficult to explain due to it all being beyond duality/time/space and yet I can only use those terms to describe it. There was an understanding that if “I” remained here I would never be able to return back. And this was very scary, so a “choice” was made at the last possible opportunity (that’s the part that’s so strange to say but it’s the truth) to return – and a process “I” can’t explain happened and I was back again apparently sitting in my beautiful family home, no one the wiser as to my disappearance. I did this several times over the course of I’m not sure -months maybe a year? And it was scary every time. I had no idea what I was doing and told no one. Eventually “I” stopped as I was scared I might be doing something wrong. And I went back to the task of becoming an “actor on the stage” as seemed to be required.


Describe free will & give examples from experience.

There is no free will. There never has been. There is only the appearance of choice. There is no one to make choices or have a will. There are no others doing anything. It’s all a dream. The world is in the “mind” which is also not real.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

There is no choice. I have no examples as there is no separate self to make choices. There is only the screen on which the drama unfolds.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

There is no control, therefore, there are no examples to give. There isn’t even any experiencer to experience anything.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

Ultimately, nothing happens. Relatively speaking it’s an apparently unknowable mystery.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Ultimately, there is no one to have responsibilities. The unknowable mystery knows what it’s doing. Relatively speaking the qualities of love, gratitude, benevolence, contentment, peace… appear to be what’s left upon liberation, upon waking up.

6) Anything to add?

Love. Infinite love.

[Anastacia42]

Love, indeed.

Your answers will be shared with other guides, who may have questions.

There are a couple of places at the beginning of #5 where it sounds like you believe in decisions, but you come around at the end.

Watch this space & the Private Messages above right.

Loving,

[Juliane]

Thank you very much Stacy!

[Anastacia42]

I guess everyone is sleeping in. No comments, so far.

I'll keep you posted.

[Juliane]

There are a couple of places at the beginning of #5 where it sounds like you believe in decisions, but you come around at the end.

Hello Stacy,

Oh my goodness I am just now seeing that I completely misinterpreted questions 5 and 6 as referring to/ being further expansion of, question 4. In other words I interpreted 5 & 6 to be specifically referring to the awakening process (which of course is a story in itself).

So here are the answers to questions 5 & 6:

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.
There are no decisions to make and no decisions have ever been made as there is no on to make them. Life is just happening. Like watching a movie unfold.

6) Describe intention & give examples from experience.
Because there is no separate self, there are no intentions and, therefore, no examples of them. This is all the illusion of form. Emptiness is form. Form is emptiness.

Thank you once again.

[Anastacia42]

No one had further questions.

Please watch for an email or PM above right, inviting you to our Facebook groups.

It has been a pleasure.

Much love,

[Juliane]

Thank you very much. Have a beautiful day!

[Anastacia42]

You, too!