Wrapping up the search

[Beeze]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That I as I have experienced myself isnt the real "me".

What are you looking for at LU?
Accountability, a final push, a nudge (or a shove) when I get off track. There have been so many openings here, no lasting shifts. Peeking at the no-self, only to have the mind grab it and quantify it and claim it, time after time. The current identity feels flimsy at best, I am at a beyond desperate state. Honestly, if it takes a few weeks to get a guide, its entirely possible I will have wrapped this up already. Theres really nothing left here but to finish this. Literally nothing else matters.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
No pulled punches, an assist in cutting through the remainder of my personal hiding places, and someone to help see the stuck spots I may not be seeing on my own. Im not afraid of anything I might be told, the time for being concerned how I appear to others has past. This is the last step here for me.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
13 years at this, shikantaza, Zen koan practice, self inquiry "who am I", using sense gates, presence practice.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

I think you're right. This may not take long.

Watch this, please:

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you know yourself to be a skeptical person, prone to doubt, I may not be the best guide for you. I never had any doubt. I can connect you with one of our other guides who did & who can guide you better than I.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Loving,

[Beeze]

Hi Stacy,
Ted here. Thanks for responding!
So heres where things are at. After I requested a guide, I began reading the gatecrashers book, using it as if I were being written to, digging into the questions posed. The first evening there was a huge release of emotions, sobbing uncontrollably, and finally a sense of "being home" (I had felt something similar many times, I feel reaching out to you has in some part been for clarification).
Over the next 2 days, I kept "checking back in", looking for that "I" that I could not find. When there is an active search here, and most of the time through the day, there is not a sense of I. There is at times a sense of re-identification, but it is seen through basically instantly.
Something felt like it shifted, and in its wake there wasnt the sense of desperate searching, but also a sense that the work/process emotionally speaking isnt completed, although I seem to have cleared a ton of it. In my case, there was a lot of trauma, wounds, etc. My day to day is to notice and feel these things, there is a strong awareness of when they come up, that they need to be felt but not over-indulged in or pushed away.
Additionally, there was a kind of grieving the first night with all the tears, as it felt like I was losing the last thing I was hanging on to, this "companion" of "me". As I continued clearly looking for this me, it was nowhere to be found, just some old residual patterns of identifying with the thoughts/internal monologue.
At moments, there are thought patterns that are stickier than others, and old habits. A sense of needing to stay alert to ensure that I dont miss a belief that would pull me back into that identification. Not sure if that work is done yet, but I cannot find an I, and the flavor of the process has changed.
The urge to move forward, fully integrate, etc remains, as I feel there is more to be explored.
I just watched the "falling" video, it felt pretty spot on as to whats happening now. Having said all that, I am still open to having a guide, or you pointing something out that I might have missed. No stone unturned, you know? I felt it was really important to check in with someone.
A question: is it often that there is residual emotional work/habits/patterns that happen after the initial shift?
Thanks for you time, I look forward to hearing from you.
Also, I am on Pacific standard time, and am open to having a phone chat with you as well.
T..

[Anastacia42]

Beautiful.

is it often that there is residual emotional work/habits/patterns that happen after the initial shift?

Every single person, as far as I know, has more to sort out. We have a couple of teleconference groups you can attend to help you get clearer.

There's an aspect that you haven't mentioned having to do with choice & control. But let's check.

These are our traditional "final"questions. These should show what else there may be to guide about, if anything.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Beautiful.

is it often that there is residual emotional work/habits/patterns that happen after the initial shift?

Every single person, as far as I know, has more to sort out. We have a couple of teleconference groups you can attend to help you get clearer.

There's an aspect that you haven't mentioned having to do with choice & control. But let's check.

These are our traditional "final"questions. These should show what else there may be to guide about, if anything.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Beautiful.

is it often that there is residual emotional work/habits/patterns that happen after the initial shift?

Every single person, as far as I know, has more to sort out. We have a couple of teleconference groups you can attend to help you get clearer.

There's an aspect that you haven't mentioned having to do with choice & control. But let's check.

These are our traditional "final"questions. These should show what else there may be to guide about, if anything.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Loving,

[Beeze]

Hi again.

I was digging into control and choice a few months ago, it seemed important to look, and at the time was unable to find a "resolution" so nicely intuited on your part. I think Id like to take a day or so to really dig into the final questions, so it might take me just a bit to answer them. Couple days at the most.
Talk soon!
T..

[Anastacia42]

Try this pointer to look at "control. "

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Loving,

[Beeze]

Hello again!

Here's the results of the hand flipping exercise. There was definitely a greater clarity once there was a focus on the exercise.
Some observations: At this point, every time there is a deep inquiry into a specific "thing", like the flipping exercise, or walking or making dinner, etc, its as if something goes deeper/clarifies even more. The sense here is that this continues ad infinitum. After the last days of inquiry, there were "points in time" where there felt like little wisps of "me-scented smoke", nothing substantial. Immediately as these arose there was a quick focus/clarification. Then just back to whatever was happening. The recognition of a flow, or a seamless space showed up as the most recent "phenomenon", for massive lack of any word to describe it.
Sidenote: The concept of space disappears more often. It happened some months ago, and just hints since then. It doesnt stay, but there are times when there's nothing in between "me" and what I'm "looking at". This has a slightly different quality than just "no solid person or controller". It comes and goes of its own accord, although occasionally seems to be more readily available if theres no active distractions, but even that isnt constant. It just seems that way, I cant lock it down to a formula.

Here's the flipping exercise. Apologies, I did it in Word and just added my own quotes.

“How is the movement controlled?”

The movement isn't controlled at any certain point. When I “zoomed in”, searched from the apparent center “me”, then flipped, then felt the sensation of flipping, looked for a thought, etc (this went around and around for a few moments, from any possible “vantage point”, hand, thought, head, etc. it became clearly obvious that it was all one seamless “thing”, movement, action, whatever. Words don’t really touch it. Flipping wasn’t separate from seeing wasn’t separate from moving attention around wasn’t separate from thought, although thought doesn’t appear as it is happening. This was like an edgeless space. Damn.. Terrible description. Im going to stop trying to put it into words.


”Does a thought control it?”

No. Thought can show up “before” sometimes, or “after” the movement, but its never consistent or predictable. And never as the movement the thought was about happens.

”Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?”

No. Just a registering of all the stuff listed above. Controller is only inferred before or after the “event”, and its just an inference. Even the inferring doesn’t show up unless attention moves toward the concept.

”How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.”

The decision is both spontaneous and a product of what came “before”, but not always. Flow seems to be the best word to describe it. I don’t find any solid decision point.

”Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?”

It seemed arbitrary, possibly based on a preference in the moment, but no one controlling even the suggestion of preference

”Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?”

Nope.

Thats all for now.
T..

[Beeze]

A quick thing to add in my primary description of the flipping exercise. When I described it as a seamless movement, it wasnt just the hand. It included everything in my field of vision as well. i.e. the "background", objects near the hand as it flipped, etc.

[Anastacia42]

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

This is important for 2 reasons:

1, I usually read this on my phone and it makes it much easier to see what is an answer and what is a question.
2, later when we get to final questions other guides will be looking at this and we want to make it easy for them to help.

Thank you,

[Beeze]

Hello again!

Here's the results of the hand flipping exercise. There was definitely a greater clarity once there was a focus on the exercise.
Some observations: At this point, every time there is a deep inquiry into a specific "thing", like the flipping exercise, or walking or making dinner, etc, its as if something goes deeper/clarifies even more. The sense here is that this continues ad infinitum. After the last days of inquiry, there were "points in time" where there felt like little wisps of "me-scented smoke", nothing substantial. Immediately as these arose there was a quick focus/clarification. Then just back to whatever was happening. The recognition of a flow, or a seamless space showed up as the most recent "phenomenon", for massive lack of any word to describe it.
Sidenote: The concept of space disappears more often. It happened some months ago, and just hints since then. It doesnt stay, but there are times when there's nothing in between "me" and what I'm "looking at". This has a slightly different quality than just "no solid person or controller". It comes and goes of its own accord, although occasionally seems to be more readily available if theres no active distractions, but even that isnt constant. It just seems that way, I cant lock it down to a formula.

Here's the flipping exercise. Apologies, I did it in Word and just added my own quotes.

How is the movement controlled?

The movement isn't controlled at any certain point. When I “zoomed in”, searched from the apparent center “me”, then flipped, then felt the sensation of flipping, looked for a thought, etc (this went around and around for a few moments, from any possible “vantage point”, hand, thought, head, etc. it became clearly obvious that it was all one seamless “thing”, movement, action, whatever. Words don’t really touch it. Flipping wasn’t separate from seeing wasn’t separate from moving attention around wasn’t separate from thought, although thought doesn’t appear as it is happening. This was like an edgeless space. This seamless movement included the background, "objects" around the hand. Damn.. Terrible description. Im going to stop trying to put it into words.

Does a thought control it?

No. Thought can show up “before” sometimes, or “after” the movement, but its never consistent or predictable. And never as the movement the thought was about happens.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No. Just a registering of all the stuff listed above. Controller is only inferred before or after the “event”, and its just an inference. Even the inferring doesn’t show up unless attention moves toward the concept.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

The decision is both spontaneous and a product of what came “before”, but not always. Flow seems to be the best word to describe it. I don’t find any solid decision point.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

It seemed arbitrary, possibly based on a preference in the moment, but no one controlling even the suggestion of preference

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Nope.

[Anastacia42]

Excellent. Pretty much perfect seeing.

So, Ted, are you ready to reply to "final" questions that are posted on Saturday, March 18?

If so, please quote and reply under each one, as you just did with Palm Flipping. Then your answers will be shared with other guides, who may have questions.

Much love,

[Beeze]

Sure thing, Ill wrap them up this evening. Thanks for your help! Felt like there was just a tiny push or a few areas of clarification left.
T..

[Beeze]

Hello again. Here's the final questions

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The separate self is implied through repetition, such as actions that seemed to be centered around a body. Theres a trained response both from external stimulus (environment, parents, settings, etc) that reinforces this. I cannot remember when this sense originally started, but it feels like mid-childhood. As an adult, a separate self maintains through thought, memories, and an apparent continuity in experience. However, once really examined, the continuity dissappears. For example, theres an assumption that there is continuity in sleep, but theres no registering of a person in deep sleep, and during dreams, it feels far more like experiencing something completely different than your waking environment. Belief and what we are told tells us that they are only dreams. After examining this aspect for a long time, the dreams are no less "real" than my waking experience, they are just appear more temporary.
How it works seems to be a momentum of belief, a habit of identifying with the content of thoughts, referencing memories, etc. This seems to need effort to maintain, although I could not say where the "effort" generates from. It was simply there, and as Ive moved through this process, the effort shifted of its own accord.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels familiar, and strange at the same time. Having experienced multiple shifts over the last 13 years (always with a return to identification), this is quite different than those. None of the explosive bliss that accompanied them, nor the fear of losing something which always followed. To be very transparent, that lack of bliss was quite a relief. The actual bliss isnt a maintainable state, it drained the body very quickly in my case, and after having it crash later, I was tired of swinging the energetic/emotional extremes. At some point the experiences lost their appeal.
Before this dialogue, there was still a sense of desperation, an urgency, despair at times, and a waiting for yet another big moment in time, in the hopes it would eradicate any further seeking. My present experience is that although there are times that an invitation for identification appears, its almost always immediately seen through. A sense of refocusing sometimes, or return to the senses, which usually includes the visual field combined with the "presence" sense. When there is a prompting to examine this deeply, the visual field is not separate from the sense of presence.
When the body has an emotional response, its almost always immediately embraced, and the attention goes directly to the sensation, i.e. gut, chest, etc. Then the thought is identified as such, rather than immediately pouncing on the content. This whole movement is infinitely less frequent than even a week ago. I could say that there appears to be posssible residue left yet to address, but theres no concern attached to the idea. If it comes, it comes. Theres already been so much emotional work done here over the last year, theres not a fear of ther crying, getting angry, even uncontrollable sobbing if it shows up. Every time those emotions have been allowed to just be there, its felt more beneficial than resisting.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Its very hard to describe a single bit, as it happened over a couple days. Before I was assigned a guide, I had downloaded the gatecrashers pdf. I barely made it through the first two accounts, reading slowly, and treating the questions as if they were being directed at me. There was a huge release of tears, sorrow, grief, etc. The last thing I had felt like I had been holding on to after a year of emotional processing was this companion of "me". My circumstantial life had fallen apart, and I found myself in isolation. Long term relationship had ended, moved all the way across the country, and what few people I stayed in contact with I could not have a conversation with for more than a few minutes before it became uncomfortable for lack of a common ground. So the last thing, which appeared about a week before I reached out, was this sense that I was hanging onto the last thing, this "me". The only companion I had left. And there was a ton of anger surrounding that. Resentment at having an extremely hard life. (drugs, prison, suicide attempts, lots of death around me, i could go on and on). An anger of "why did this happen to ME?" I didnt ask for any of this bullshit. Keep in mind, this was after many "opening" events, so it was clear there was something more peaceful that could be experienced, I just couldnt stabilize it. And I was hanging on to this "Ted", demanding he be saved, rescued, whatever. My last friend. The only one who had been there with me the whole time. And now I had to let him go. THere was much more to this process, but thats a short version. The sobbing came from a sadness and grieving for "Ted", and it also felt like a funeral of sorts.
After that whole movement passed, I felt clear enough to really start looking again, and got back into the gatecrashers stories. It was a ruthless examination, guided by the questions the guides were presenting. And sometimes I would get up, and pace, and talk out loud. Labeling each sensation as it came up. "thought". If it was an emotion with a label, I described it out loud as "sensation in the chest, gut, etc". This went on for hours. More sobbing as I went to bed, as I wasnt finding "Ted". Kept asking myself out loud, over and over again, "WHERE is Ted", which was immediately followed by a scan, through thoughts, environment, sensations, etc. But a sense of relief was also in those final tears, a sense of home.
I woke up the next day, feeling like I needed to spend at least a day or two clarifying, and re-clarifying. At the end of the next night, there was this huge monologue, out loud and by myself. I sat on my bed and walked through every sense, examined them out loud, looking for a me in them, swatting away any assumption or belief. Just kept returning to the immediate experience of anything I found in the room, from light, to the comforter on the bed, a candle, body sensations, etc etc. It was quite strange really, I wish I had recorded it, but Im sure I sounded like a Vulcan from star trek, all logic, no assumptions of any kind. Took me an hour or two to go through all of it, and break it all down. Smaller versions happened of this when asked to do the hand flipping exercise, which yielded even greater clarity. At some point after only a minute of doing the exercise, there wasnt even separation from the hand flipping, the seeing of the hand, the sensation, or the background "behind" the hand. Just one edgeless movement.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Decision sometimes appears to come from a sense, or prompting, but it is unclear where that sense originates. If there is active resistance to it, it becomes increasingly more uncomfortable. I would call this intuition, but thats not quite the right word. Other times, it happens on its own, with no "conscious" urging. These seem to be related to the significance of the 'event". Making dinner or watching a movie just happens. Larger ones, like maybe quitting a job or something, seem to have the unoriginated urging with them. Im definitely curious to explore the different dynamic, if any, between the two.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

i think I covered this with the sense of urging or "inner" prompting. Same thing. Doesnt originate at a point, or with a "person" (which now seems silly to say person, a little. Ha.)

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

I dont think theres actual free will. It can appear that way, but always from a limited set of choices. Choosing one item off a menu as opposed to another, for example. There are still all kinds of preferences here, from foods to clothing, but Im not defined by them.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Again, I think I covered this with free will. But additionally, there is just a continuous movement, without an originating point. If you try to look for a specific why, or moment, etc, it just leads to the one "before" that, and before that, and before that, etc. It becomes pointless to do so. A choice can come up in a moment or situation, and a choice appears to be made, but there isnt a chooser.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

Ha! Id just like to laugh out loud at this one. Its a complete appearance. All I have to do is look at ANYTHING (lets use my present life situation, age, gender, preferences, location, etc"). It seems almost remedial to say "I" had anything to do with ANY of it. I dont know if I ever had any kind of plan or goal for my life, only the constant seeking of safety, pleasure, security, validation, and so on.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

I love these "trick" questions. (just kidding). Things happen. But dont happen. What is a thing that it happens? Theres the senses, apparent recognition of events, but every last "thing" flows into every other. At what point do we say something happened? We have to start by labeling, "heres a thing". But there are still a ton of assumptions that go with that thing. How did my tea cup happen? Why is it on my desk as Im typing? Ultimately, its undefinable. And also, who cares? It is as it is. If there is attention or effort that needs to be applied, to move the cup, drink from it, refill it, it will arise and just happen. This is extended to anything that can be perceived. Its not necessary to assign meaning to any of this, although I would say I have a further urging to go infinitely deeper into ALL of this. This could be just "resting in being", although resting in being isnt a very accurate description, or an "active investigation".

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

A week ago, I might have said I was responsible for not resisting what experience comes up in any moment. For now, I will reluctantly say for the sake of answering the question is that there is an alertness that appears to need to be applied from time to time. The sense is little remnants, like phantoms of a self that will appear to come up occasionally. Subtle doesnt even describe it. If clarification is needed, it will happen of itself. But also, kind of a paradox. I dont feel like, 'Ok, no work left to be done here", like that awful droning of some of the more extreme non-dual movements. Thats just not how it works either, that feels like a kind of resistance to how things actually are, which is constantly in flux. Attention and effort may need to be applied, but there wont be the "I" here doing it.

6) Anything to add?

I mean, I could run long here, thats definitely a personality trait. I enjoy descriptive words. (Clearly, haha!)
I will say this is completely different than what I expected in the beginning. I spent some years in prison, with "Three pillars of Zen" as a guide. Basically memorized it. It grabbed me, no idea why, but at the time I knew I HAD to have whatever they were talking about. And on a funny note, my greatest mistake after my first "kensho" experience in that cell was the urging that came up, that said I wanted it ALL. Complete, perfectly clear freedom. Who even does that? What a dummy I was. Ruined my life. hahahahaha!
the 13 years between then and now have been the most beautiful AND awful of my life. Surviving prison riots is WAY easier than delving into this with any sincerity. But in the end, there was literally no choice. And I felt I had no choice for YEARS before the clear seeing through the nature of choice. What a ride.
And surprisingly, as I mentioned earlier, theres not the huge rush of emotions. Its just this. Im sure theres more emotional work to do, I experienced extreme trauma for almost my whole life, in all kinds of ways. But it will happen of its own, and theres no longer fear or apprehension that goes along with it.
Finally, its all just a story after all.