Amen to the Seen

[Marimbo]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I can understand, that there is no me in the body or elswhere, because me cannot be found as an object, so who is the I thats looking and searching for something.
Who is the seer without a self?

What are you looking for at LU?
Of course the end of suffering and seeking and finding peace in whatever comes up. Guidance for this clear seeing. A deep looking for seeing, what is not there and where I make the mistakes, which causes the not seeing and suffering and endless seeking.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Help in whats coming up and also motivation in looking closer and where exactly to look. Having someone in my side, who already hast ended his search and knows the pitfalls and bypassing, which he/she went through.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Travelled to India for 8 times, to Sai Baba, Papaji, Ramana Maharshi, invested in Advaita Vedanta, had many god and light experiences and for the last 20 years I worked mainly with A Course in Miracle.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

I, too, was an ACIM student for 25 years. Good stuff in some ways and not in others. Maybe it helped prepare me. I don't know, but then, I don't know much of anything any more. :)

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.
Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.
If you know yourself to be a skeptical person, prone to doubt,  I may not be the best guide for you. I never had any doubt. I can connect you with one of our other guides who did & who can guide you better than I.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.  

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you?  What time zone are you in, please?

I'm in Colorado, US.

Loving,

[Marimbo]

Good evening Dear Stacy,

Thank you for your reply and yes, I would like you to be my guide.

I have the time to post every day and I am surely not a sceptical person.

Wonderful, that you also underwent the Mindtraining of the Course in Miracle, I don´t know, what anything is for...

I have read the disclaimer and also "Liberation Unleashed is not..." in the FAQ´s of LU.

How will life change?

I have no idea, but in the falling away of the self, the war against my self will come to an end.

How will you change?

Maybe not at all, there will be no identification with a me any more.

What will be different?

Seeing me as a small self is like an inprisonment, so beeing free and liberated from this prison.

What is missing?

The actual experience of this liberated state, if it´s an experience at all.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Zoom, Skype, Messenger, Whatsapp is okay for me, I am living south from Berlin, CEST.

Thank You for beeing here , for your support and guidance and love.

with love
Lorenz

[Anastacia42]

Good afternoon, I only use the forum, but if you need someone to do other chats are something we can ask.

Your expectations sound relatively reasonable.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be?

Much love,

[Marimbo]

Good afternoon Dear Stacy,

I didn´t get the question What would you like for me to call you? So that was for the name and not for chats, hope that´s right.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be?

I looked at this question, looked again, went for a walk and its like, I never wanted to see this. Thoughts came up, emotions and some distractions to not remain at the looking fora separate self, not seeing and finding it and then just seeing and realizing......no Santa Claus, I saw my father in the shop buying this present and it was never Santa Claus bringing it to me, or like looking for a Godfather seperate from me in heaven bringing me salvation.

Wau, it´s like that someone told me all the time in my life, look for this thing, which is not findable, don´t stop the search.

And it can´t be found by thinking. Your quote from Adyashanti was good and I didn´t like it after 20 years with the mindtraining.

Thank You
Love
Lorenz

[Anastacia42]

Good morning!

I somehow lost track of our thread. If you don't get s reply from me, write again, so I see it, please.

Let's continue, ok?

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Much love

[Marimbo]

Hi again and good afternoon,

let´s continue and I will write again, if I don´t hear from you for two days.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Okay, I am clear about this, I don´t have to think up anythinkg. .....feel like a child,

Thank You
Love
Lorenz

[Anastacia42]

Thank you.

Yes, like a child. Let's practice this.


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[Marimbo]

Good evening Dear Stacy,

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

playing guitar:
Seeing the guitar, simply=image/color
Smelling smoke in the air, simply=smelling
Feeling the sound in my chest, simply=sensation
Tasting rest of juice in my mouth, simply=taste
Hearing the meloldy, simply= Sound
Thought about better tuning, simply=thought

eating Indian food:
Seeing the plate with rice and dhal, simply: image/color
smelling the spices, simply=smell
Feeling the spicy food in my mouth, simply=sensation
tasting the food, simply= taste
Hearing the chewing, simply=sound
Thought about eating more, simply=thought

trinking lime water:
Seeing the cup, simply=image/color
smelling the lime, simply=smell
Feeling the warmth of the water, simply=sensation
Hearing it swallow, simply=sound
Thought about next to do, simply =thought

Brushing teeth:
Seeing the toothbrush, simply:image/color
Smelling the toothpaste, simply=smell
Feeling the past and brush in my mouth, simply=sensation
Tasting the paste, simply= taste
hearing the brushing, simply=sound
Thought about it´s enought, simply=thought

Hope, I understood that correct, now I go to bed.

Thank You forever
Love
Lorenz

[Anastacia42]

Good, Lorenz. Yes, you've got it.

The point is that we made up all of the stories on the left.

Now try this:

Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,

[Marimbo]

So I did this 20 min. exercise....

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The second is truer, more simple

2. What is here without labels?

It´s a spacesness, a transparency, a no thingness, no boundaries

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

The labeling with I affect the experience, is adding boundaries while using only verbs is much more natural in describing it.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

With label "I", the body is tightening , dense while using only verbs, the experience of relaxing and openness and spacesness is there in the body.

Wonderful experiments.

Thank You Stacy

Love Lorenz

[Anastacia42]

Yes, very good.

I think maybe you misunderstood #3, though.

The labeling with I affect the experience, is adding boundaries while using only verbs is much more natural in describing it.

Try this one to see what effect labels have or do not have:

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.

Loving,

[Marimbo]

Wow...good questions and pointers, amazing.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Actual experiece is letters or image in the color red.

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

The color red is experienced.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

No, doesn´t have a one-to-one correspodence with `reality`. The label `GREEN` suggests something else, as long I give words meaning on a day to day or memory basis.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?[/quote

Yes, `I` associate with the word GREEN the color green with the experience of the color red. But without past memory GREEN is just a label that overlays the actual experience of red.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Okay, the redness is not affected with this labels, not in any way.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Redness doesnt`t become good or bad and the labels have no affect whatsoever on ``reality`.

Let me know what is SEEN.

Redness is seen.

Puh..... Thank You Dear Stacy

Love Lorenz

[Anastacia42]

Good. Yes. That is the point. Labels don't change what we SEE.

The same is true of "self." You can label something "self" all day long, but in Direct Experience what is there? Nothing, but thoughts & labels!!!

Can you SEE this? (Not just rationalize it.)

Much love,

[Anastacia42]

Now back to this:

With label "I", the body is tightening , dense while using only verbs, the experience of relaxing and openness and spacesness is there in the body.

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

(Note: I sent 2 replies.)

Loving,