Gate me outta here!

[filtah]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that this sense of self, sense of being me, dispite feeling very really is actually an illusion. I can't find this me when I look, only thought. I understand there is a possibility to see thorough this illusion and for some kind of shift in identity to occur.

What are you looking for at LU?
i'm looking for help. I recently discovered the fetter model and I'm interested in working through this process. I would be interested if someone with experience here could guide me, but ultimately it doesn't matter. I'm looking for freedom, and the means are not important. I've had glimpses of stillness, peace and clarity, and have experienced the falling away of habits. There has been moments where I've seen through this self, but there is doubt. I can't know if these experiences were true or real when perceiving them as memories. If it is possible for some kind of permanent shift to happen here, then this is what I want.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Clarity. I'm aware of my mind's ability to trick myself, and I think without a guide, this will continue to happen and behaviours will remain unseen during this process. I need a clear mirror to help me see for myself, the truth of what I am (and not), so this is what I want from a guide.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been on and off this path for about 15 years. This interest in truth and seeking basically began after reading Total Freedom by J Krishnamurti. I had never heard anything like this before, and it was not what I expected. I started learning vipassana in my 20s and have attended several 10 day retreats.
This has shaped my idea about meditation practice, however I have explored other tequniques and methods like self enquiry.
I have ready a lot of books, too many probably, which has just filled me with ideas, and for the most part, been a form of entertainment if I'm honest. There were significant changes for the good however, lots of insights and beautiful experiences, but no real shift in identity. Right now, the seeking has taken a more central place in my life. There has been a seeing with greater clarity, and there is a desire and willingness for truth, and a doubt in what I take myself to be.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

If it is possible for some kind of permanent shift to happen here, then this is what I want.

Yes & no. Here at LU we only guide to see no self. At first, that comes & goes, maybe for years. I'll share a couple of videos about that. There is the Ten Fetters model & a group here discussing that on Zoom. But let's do Fetter 1 here first. Fetter 2, Doubt, seems to be where you are & Fetter 3, Rites & Rituals usually falls with the first 2.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you know yourself to be a skeptical person, prone to doubt, I may not be the best guide for you. I never had any doubt. I can connect you with one of our other guides who did & who can guide you better than I.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Watch this, please:

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

Loving,

[filtah]

Hi Stacy,

Thank you for offering to be my guide.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

You can call me Fil. I’m in Central European timezone.


I fully accept your request to post at least every day. I don’t see any reason why this would not be possible, I’m committed to this process, so I'll do my best.

I’d be very happy to accept you as my guide through this process and excited to get started.
Thank you so much :)

I’ve read the disclaimer and the FAQ, I’m clear with all of that thank you.

Yes & no. Here at LU we only guide to see no self. At first, that comes & goes, maybe for years. I'll share a couple of videos about that.

Thanks, these were helpful. I can see this is going to be a process, I don't expect that kind of stability out of the gate so to speak. I think just getting started is the most important thing.

In response to your questions:

How will life change?

I expect there would be greater clarity of what is actually happening.

How will you change?

I guess I would be less identified with the thinking process. not that it would stop, but I would be able to see through the identity it creates, and know that this is not ‘me’, or inherently real.

What will be different?

This sense of I would be recognised for what it is.

What is missing?

I actually don’t think anything is missing. It could be the other way round. there is an identification, and belief in something inherently unreal.
So what is missing is therefore the ability to recognise this is happening.


Thats the best I got, on reflection I can see how self centred these responses are.
Thank you, looking forward to your response.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Fil,

Good start.

What comes up when you read that there is no separate self, never has been and never will be? That it is all just a made up story?

Loving,

[filtah]

Hi Stacy,

What comes up when you read that there is no separate self, never has been and never will be? That it is all just a made up story?

Let's see. Going to the mind - It sounds like a concept, another story. It actually sounds ridiculous. How can that be true?
It gets rejected. How can I believe such a thing. Why is this idea rejected though? By rejecting this, could it mean that I believe the opposite?
That there is a separate self, which is 'me', has been so from when I was born, and will continue to exist until I die.
This is more believable - yes, but how do i know for sure? its also a story..
I’m aware of a story, ok, thats accepted, but it's a story about me. it refers to a ‘me’ here. I see a distinction between the story of self, and the actual experience of being a self. So then comes the question - what exactly is meant by "separate self”?
I would say self is what it is that I take my self to be. Of course self is just a word, but it points to something real, here, which is me.
So to question the existence of this doesn't make sense - I’m not rejecting the inquiry, just seeing what comes up from the mind.

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

Wow, that really put you into a tail spin of stories. That's okay. Following these next guidelines will help you get out of that.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Loving,

[filtah]

Hi Stacy,

Wow, that really put you into a tail spin of stories.

Yeah, that question really pulled me in!

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Yes, this is clear.


I was right about my socks though lol.
but would never has known that without looking, so yes, the difference is crystal clear.

Thank you :)

[filtah]

Hi Stacey,

I'm not sure exactly what i'm meant to be questioning today,
but being committing to posting every day,
I thought maybe I would share an experience.
I took a wrong turn on my way back home,
and quite automatically, I ended up in a story of self judgement about taking the wrong turn,
I even was imagining how my wife would react, also judging me about this.
It felt uncomfortable, and i was saying inside 'I don't want to be judged like this', feeling the unpleasant emotion.
Then there was a recognition of what was happening and laughter!
All just a story, and nothing at all to do with what is happening now - simply driving a car!
It was really clear that thinking is never now. In this case was a reference to an imagined future.
It's amazing how hypnotic the mind can be. it was all really trivial, but an interesting catch.

[Anastacia42]

Sorry... Good story about your stories.

Here's your first pointer to practice this:

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[filtah]

Hi Stacy.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Sitting at a table having lunch

Seeing the cup in front of me, simply = image/color
Seeing the sunlight reflecting over the table, simply = image/color
Picking up the cup, feeling the feeling the pressure agains my fingers, simply = sensation
Lifting cup to face, smelling coffee, simply = smell
Taking a sip of the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the sound of people taking, cars moving, simply = sound
Thinking about this 'noting' process i'm doing now, simply = thought

Sitting at my desk

Seeing the computer screen in front of me, simply = image/color
Typing on the keyboard, simply = sensation
Hearing the sound of the keys when pressed, simply = sound
Thinking about the words to type, simply = thought

Driving home

Looking at the road in front of me, simply = image/color
Feeling the pedals under my feet, simply = sensation
Hearing the sound of the engine, simply = sound
Thinking about the work I was doing earlier, simply = thought

[Anastacia42]

Very good. The point is to separate our made-up stories from Direct Experience. "Self" is a made up story.

Try the next step:

u]Mind Labeling Experience[/u]

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving

[filtah]

Hi Stacy, I can't post today, it's got really late.
I'll post later in the morning, have to get up very early anyway,
sorry.

[Anastacia42]

Thanks for letting me know.

If you can't post, try to practice.

Loving,

[filtah]

Hi Stacey,

Here's my report on the excersise:

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

I am sitting in a chair
I am looking at a pen writing in a journal
I am feeling a phone in my hand
I hear the sound of a car in the distance
I hear people talking nearby
I smell tobacco smoke faintly
I am looking at the reflection of trees in my phone screen
I am thinking
I taste coffee
I feel the warmth of the coffee in my belly
I feel the sensation of breathing
I am looking at a small dog
I hear the sound of cars driving by
I taste the coffee
I am thinking
I feel sensation in my shoulder
I am looking at my journal
I taste the coffee
I hear people talking
I am feeling sensations in my gut & chest
I taste the coffee
I see a car driving by
I am thinking

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

Thinking
Sitting at a chair
Looking at a pen and journal
Tasting coffee
Looking at reflection of trees in phone screen
Looking at watch
Hearing people talking
Feeling sensation of breathing
Tasting coffee
Smelling coffee
Looking at a bicycle
Looking at journal
Thinking
Feeling sensations in hands
Feeling sensations in face
Tasting coffee
Looking at person walking
Thinking
Feeling sensations in gut & chest
Looking at car
Hearing people talking
Hearing footsteps
Feeling wind of face and legs
Thinking
Looking at people walking
Looking at watch
Hearing the wind blowing
Feeling the wind blowing
Seeing leaves falling, blowing in wind
Looking at people walking
Feeling wind
Hearing sound of cars driving
Feeling sensations in body
Tasting coffee
Feeling sensations in body
Thinking
Hearing engines in the distance
Hearing people singing
Seeing person walking with dog

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The second one feels 'truer'. Adding I is not required to describe the experience, so I would say it's more accurate.

2. What is here without labels?

Just whatever is happening, what is experienced by the senses.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

I don't know. I wan't to say no, but I'm not sure. I am open to the possibility that adding labels does change the experience, but I don't see this directly. I would say that there is a lot of added thought with the labelling, so this definitely does add to the content of the experience.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

It felt a bit lighter to be honest. It's subtle, but I did get a sense it was more natural, and 'truer' to describe what was happening.

Thank you

[Anastacia42]

Excellent!

No labels don't change anything. If I call you a bluebird, do you change into one? No.

You're right about the lighter feeling without "I."

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,