The beginning of the end?

[JustinCase]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
"The self" is primarily a label that we use to describe the personality structure, including the body. Through focus and direct experience one might actually "see" that the boundaries of that self are false, revealing the true nature, which is No-self.

What are you looking for at LU?
The life I've been living until now has been spent on and off in the search of who I really am. I have got many concepts, ideas, experiences bundled up but haven't progressed that far as one would like. Now, I am trying to find here someone who could actually help me in finding doors and keys, or just to truly realize there is no doors, no keys, no one that looks for them and nothing to find.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would like to omit the term "expect" here, because I am not that big at assumptions, predictions, and hopes anymore. Expectations are just thoughts and desires and about the future, and none of them are true, so let what will befall. I am open to whatever conversation there is. No specific preferences or expectations.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
The usual suspects: meditation, journaling and contemplations in the beginning and later on Spiritual autolysis, and "witnessing the witness".

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[gmalen]

My name is Gunnar - I’d be happy to guide you.

I appreciate your sincerity and intent. You're in a great place with this, I feel it. A few things first...

Disclaimer: I'm new to guiding on the LU site. I passed through the gate early January. A long-timer in the LU community named Vince is my mentor for guiding, lending his oversight for us. I will be off-grid in Hawaii for 1.5-2.5 months between April-June, 2023. Vince has agreed to take over during that time if we are still conversing. I'd be happy to return afterwards or Vince may be willing to continue if you wish.

Alright, so If you haven't already read the disclaimer. Here is the link. http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link. http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Agreements together:

- The momentum of inquiry is important. Post at least once a day or every second day. If you need more time or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know. I will do the same :)

- Throughout this exploration, I would like you to answer all questions that I have written using the quote function. Even if a question seems redundant at times, it has a purpose. The identity structure is fickle but quite simple in how it functions. So trust the process even when it feels like you’ve ‘already looked there’. If it has a question mark, give it a response!

- I’ve done my share of honorable, silly, beautiful, and not so beautiful things. No judgment here. 100% honesty is very important. Don’t hold anything back. If there’s shame around things like fear, mistakes, or trouble seeing something, do your best to express it and we’ll work through it.

- When answering questions, don’t answer from memory - look into your immediate, direct experience - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts (not the content of thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.

- Please put aside other teachings (videos, books, teachers, etc) during this period together - LU resources/books are fine. Otherwise, direct all your focus into the inquiries we’re exploring. If you have a daily meditation practice, I encourage you to continue it, but it’s not necessary for this exploration.

Do these agreements work for you?

Here is a link to a video with instructions on using the Quote Function if needed.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

May I refer to you as Justin? What time zone / country are you in? By the way, I'm open to meeting by zoom/skype down the road if we think it'd be beneficial.

If this feels like a good fit for you, I’d like to start by exploring your expectations around awakening or crashing through the gate as we call it here:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing right now?

Cheers,
Gunnar

[JustinCase]

Hello and thank you for replying, Gunnar.

The agreements works, and I will be able to post every other day or even every day. I'll respond to every question honestly and with no holding back.
Now. I don't understand how NOT to answer from memory, since every information is already a memory. Every sense and thought is already the past. Every experience as well. Can you elaborate more about that?
Also, what is the difference between "thoughts vs content of thoughts"? To me, thoughts already have a content. Without content, there is no thought. A thought is a packet of information. If a thought is "hollow", then it isn't there. Or?

It is perfectly fine if you call me Justin. :)
The time zone is EET, Helsinki, (GMT+2).

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing right now?

My mind is very analytical and it wants to define the terms that we use, but the first thoughts that pop up are:

- Life would change for the better.
- I would become less afraid or completely unafraid (in general).
- Reality would APPEAR different.
- The realization that all is one.

Although, I theoretically know that life is a label that we use for the period between birth and death, where "period/timespace", "birth/death" are untrue - in other words, illusion - I am still away from really "getting it".
Then, how can we separate the I from life? Mustn't they both occur simultaneously? And if life changes, I changes and vice versa? Or is it that I change, and therefore my life changes? An illusion of subject/object relation. Duality. Likewise, "better/worse", a duality that implies two. If Truth is all, how can there be two?
Change is also an illusion within awareness. Nothing changes. It only appears so.
Same with "becoming unafraid". Who becomes what? Isn't fear just an unpleasant sensation within the boundaries of the body-mind? Aren't all sensations fleeting in nature, and therefore untrue, unreal? Who is afraid? Just a bunch of thoughts and sensations. Within Consciousness, nothing is becoming anything. It just is. The part where something becomes something is only an appearance.
Nothing is really missing, since everything is whole already - always has been, always will be (if we assume that time exists). It is the ego/false self craving unity to end suffering that comes from being a finite form with the inevitability of death. Could it be just a coping mechanism of ego then? To cope with the fact that there is no self there? No one is there to "become" anything.

I guess I've captured a snapshot of the direct experience for you to see. I've left it pretty much unedited.
I hope I managed to answer in the preferred format and that the quote function has been used correctly. (I can quote each question individually, but I've felt the stated questions fall within the same category.)

Cheers,
Justin

[gmalen]

Hey Justin,

I appreciate the clear and organized message. Let's do this thing :)

I don't understand how NOT to answer from memory, since every information is already a memory. Every sense and thought is already the past. Every experience as well. Can you elaborate more about that?

You are correct here. Let me phrase it this way. Don't use memory to regurgitate concepts and ideas that you already have stored in thought. Look into your direct experience of the senses, including the experience of thought (not its content), in the moment of looking and then use thoughts/memory of that to describe what you see/saw.

Also, what is the difference between "thoughts vs content of thoughts"? To me, thoughts already have a content. Without content, there is no thought. A thought is a packet of information. If a thought is "hollow", then it isn't there. Or?

Great Q. Well tell me how you know that a thought is occurring? What is the experience of a thought like? Or how do you know you are thinking? This exploration here is touching on what I mean by the 'experience of thought' being a part of direct experience.

Oppositely, when speaking of the content to which a thought refers, we can recognize that it is not something tangible or real in direct experience. The following exercise is designed to let you ‘feel’ the difference between actual experience and imagined experience (the content of thoughts).

--------------------

Close your eyes and imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine the spoons form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Look and feel at the imaginary spoon for a while.

Then open your eyes … is there a spoon here, in real life?
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or did it never exist?

Notice that there was no boom and no bright flashes of light when the imaginary spoon was no longer imagined. Remember this, the shift to seeing through the illusion of a separate self is not going to be any more than this, it is just a dropping of a belief – the belief is the glue that holds the illusion together.

Now go and get a spoon from the kitchen and hold it in the same way that you imagined it.

Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature.
Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.

Now open your eyes … is there a spoon here, in real life?
Are the image of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?
How does imagining and experiencing the same thing differ?

Now close your eyes again and bring your attention to the image of “me”, the separate individual entity. Spend some time exploring this, and then answer the following question:

Is it an image or is it an actual entity?

The questions are really just there for you to consider as you do the exercise, I do not need detailed answers to each one, just some reflections on how the exercise went for you, or if you have any questions or need any clarification.

---------------

- Life would change for the better.
- I would become less afraid or completely unafraid (in general).
- Reality would APPEAR different.
- The realization that all is one.

How would life change for the better?

Your latter points are all possible at deeper phases of awakening. What we are talking about together now is the first shift. Passing through the gate. Which is simply seeing through the illusion of the separate self. No big fireworks. It's like when you found out santa claus wasn't real... Just a moment of clear seeing and the illusion drops and can never be believed again.

So in this case, none of those latter points apply. Being afraid, getting angry, being reactive, resisting life, feeling separate - these don't change. EVERYTHING BELONGS. Justin is still Justin. The character plays on. It's just seen that Justin is not really real. He's no where to be found. When you look for Justin or the 'I' that is controlling, managing, thinking, or doing, you find nothing in your direct experience. No self, no entity, no person, no 'I'. Life is just happening. The effort to control or manage... is just happening... no controller. no manager. Thoughts happening. No thinker. Doing happening. No doer. YOU DON'T EXIST. YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO CONTROL. What is your internal reaction to reading this?

Then, how can we separate the I from life? Mustn't they both occur simultaneously? And if life changes, I changes and vice versa? Or is it that I change, and therefore my life changes? An illusion of subject/object relation. Duality. Likewise, "better/worse", a duality that implies two. If Truth is all, how can there be two?

You could say life and 'I' are one. Some say self is everything, some say self is empty, an illusion. They're pointing to the same thing: There is no separation. There is not two. That is the illusion that is cut through... by no one... lol.

It is the ego/false self craving unity to end suffering that comes from being a finite form with the inevitability of death. Could it be just a coping mechanism of ego then?

Thankfully, we don't have to understand all of this conceptually. In fact, the self/mind can't understand the end of itself. All we have to do is look in direct experience and see what's there, and what's not there. Spot the next thought you have that has an 'I' or 'me' in it... can you find in DE what that word in thought is referring to?

I hope I managed to answer in the preferred format and that the quote function has been used correctly. (I can quote each question individually, but I've felt the stated questions fall within the same category.)

Yes, how you did it was all good :)

Peace,
Gunnar

[JustinCase]

Hey Gunnar,

Thanks for the quick response! :)
I feel a bit sluggish today, so I hope I am making sense in the following responses...

Well tell me how you know that a thought is occurring?

I know it through perception.

What is the experience of a thought like?

The experience is akin to a sudden appearance of an audio/video packet with minuscule amounts of tactile sensations.

Or how do you know you are thinking?

I don't really know it. I just perceive it. "I", in this instance is being used as a term for awareness.

Within awareness, AV packets appear and disappear, and the mind comes up with a story how they come into being, what they are, and how it knows that it knows.
But knowledge is derived from the senses and thoughts. Experience as well. The self too. Only awareness could be said to "linger". No thoughts, no mind, no appearance, nor disappearance ... Just awareness. The content of awareness does not exist, as it is transient and relative, but awareness does.

… is there a spoon here, in real life?

There is no spoon. :)

So how did you see that there is no spoon?

My sense of sight informed me that there is none.

What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or did it never exist?

It never existed. It only appeared that it disappeared.

… is there a spoon here, in real life?

I must say, yes, there is a spoon.

Are the image of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?
How does imagining and experiencing the same thing differ?

It differs only by the magnitude of the sensation and apparent consistency of the material world. But, obviously, no difference, whatsoever - conceptually, at least.

Now close your eyes again and bring your attention to the image of “me”, the separate individual entity. Spend some time exploring this, and then answer the following question:

Is it an image or is it an actual entity?

It is an actual entity. But I know that isn't true. Is the mind that much conditioned that it resists the idea that there is no actual entity? :O

How would life change for the better?

If we liken the false self to a lens through which awareness shines through and we drop the need to reinforce a false sense of self, beliefs and boundaries would also drop. Liberation would occur, giving the entity the opportunity to engage in reality virtually boundless. Once "I" returns to "source", it gets reintegrated and fearful egoic needs and desires get discarded in favor of "higher" functioning. Still in the dream, but not fooled by the shadows on the wall anymore. Just like with Santa... it is a nice story, but if the individual entity wants to navigate through the world, it would need better knowledge about how it works (in context of a good life). Likewise, realizing that there is no self, could also bring about better navigation and less traction, due to discarded ignorance. But all of this is just a story about how life would change. I have no clue what will happen, nor if it will actually be "better".
Am I making sense?

YOU DON'T EXIST. YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO CONTROL. What is your internal reaction to reading this?

Conceptually I know I don't exist, and it angers me that after all these years of pounding against it, I am still in front of the gate.
I don't like the idea of not having control.

Those are my reactions reading that. The mind also jumps in, trying to say things like "I know I don't exist, but what with it," or "Possession is an illusion, as well as I am, and as well as control - for control to exist, there needs to be something to control, which there isn't. There is only Absolute Undifferentiated Consciousness."
I understand that Justin isn't real. That he is a fictional character in a fictional world. And that is where he's stuck. He doesn't know how to proceed from here. What to do when you come to the conclusion that oneself isn't real but didn't really realize it at a cellular level? How to navigate through reality?

Spot the next thought you have that has an 'I' or 'me' in it... can you find in DE what that word in thought is referring to?

It foremost refers to the personality structure, and then the body.

I am so grateful for this, Gunnar. Thank you so much, and I hope I hear from you soon!

Best wishes,
J

[gmalen]

Justin,

The experience is akin to a sudden appearance of an audio/video packet with minuscule amounts of tactile sensations.

Yes, I like the AV packet idea. What are the minuscule amounts of tactile sensations you speak of? Do those sensations comprise/make up thought, or are they an effect of it?

Or how do you know you are thinking?
I don't really know it. I just perceive it. "I", in this instance is being used as a term for awareness.

Yes, awareness just aware-ing. Are you awareness? Do 'you' have any control over how awareness operates?

No thoughts, no mind, no appearance, nor disappearance ... Just awareness. The content of awareness does not exist, as it is transient and relative, but awareness does.

I like what you're throwin' down here, but when we speak of direct experience, let's talk about our actual experience of things. What you offer here might be 'true' at some deeper level but it is only conceptual.

Is it ('me', 'i') an image or is it an actual entity?
It is an actual entity. But I know that isn't true. Is the mind that much conditioned that it resists the idea that there is no actual entity? :O

Great to just speak your gut instinct here, appreciate the honesty. Now test it out for yourself, if the 'I' is an actual entity, you'd be able to find it. Really look for it, Justin. Set some quiet time aside to take a good look. Here's a fun exercise to get you started:

------------

Suppose I extend my hands to you and, lying, say, here is a watermelon.

And I give you an imaginary watermelon.

You take the imaginary watermelon and “hold it”. Go ahead, do it. Hold the imaginary watermelon—huge—in between your hands. Now I ask you: what should you do to get rid of this watermelon in your hands?

You can’t. There’s nothing there. It doesn’t make sense to ask that question, and in exactly the same way, it doesn’t make sense to ask the question “how can I get rid of or unmask the separate self?” There actually is no self. Never was. Ever. It was always imaginary, right from the start.

It doesn’t need to fade. It’s not about identity (the character of justin) or thoughts fading.

It’s about the truth — that identity doesn’t point to anything. Fade, not fade—whatever. The point is that it is fiction. The strength of the fiction or the content of thought is irrelevant - you can be out in nature with lots of mental space to see the truth of the fiction. OR you can be busy at work, caught up in trying to get things done and solve problems. Either way, the key is knowing that the separate self is fiction. Some days, I meditate a bit more and things are quieter, other days I'm busy and the mind is a flurry of thoughts. SAME underlying reality. Impermanent states/feelings/thoughts come and go. No self or 'I' to be found.

So look at the “I” thought. That’s all that is needed. Look behind the “I” thought. What’s there?

-------------

If we liken the false self to a lens through which awareness shines through and we drop the need to reinforce a false sense of self, beliefs and boundaries would also drop. Liberation would occur, giving the entity the opportunity to engage in reality virtually boundless. Once "I" returns to "source", it gets reintegrated and fearful egoic needs and desires get discarded in favor of "higher" functioning. Still in the dream, but not fooled by the shadows on the wall anymore. Just like with Santa... it is a nice story, but if the individual entity wants to navigate through the world, it would need better knowledge about how it works (in context of a good life). Likewise, realizing that there is no self, could also bring about better navigation and less traction, due to discarded ignorance. But all of this is just a story about how life would change. I have no clue what will happen, nor if it will actually be "better".
Am I making sense?

I hear some grandiosity here, no problem, we all want that at some level and it may come later down the road ;) But as you write with Santa, when the illusion/belief falls away, life goes on nearly the same. The same is true for the illusion of the self falling away. 'Oh, ya, there's nothing really there. Okay, back to life-ing now.' Seeing through this illusion is your main priority at this moment. Nothing needs to change or be fixed or bettered about Justin. I like how you say "still in the dream, but not fooled by the shadows on the wall anymore." All in all, this understanding will be your best friend throughout this process: IF AWAKENING WERE TO HAPPEN, IT WOULD BE JUST THIS. Can you allow everything to be just as it is, even the process of selfing and mind identification, Justin? What are you fighting against?

I understand that Justin isn't real. That he is a fictional character in a fictional world. And that is where he's stuck. He doesn't know how to proceed from here. What to do when you come to the conclusion that oneself isn't real but didn't really realize it at a cellular level? How to navigate through reality?

Hmmm.. well what are you supposed to do or what did you do with that imaginary watermelon that I gave you earlier? Or how bout with santa - when you realized that he wasn't real, what was the process of shedding that belief? Maybe some anger, confusion, disbelief, frustration, grief, sadness. Time passed, emotions settled, the truth sank into your bones and it became commonplace - no duh santa doesn't exist. Let the anger you spoke of, the confusion, the resistance to this process all flow through this vessel. It is not coming from 'you', it's out of your control, just like clouds in the sky or sounds in your environment. Don't fight this process. Let it happen. LET IT ALL HAPPEN. See that it can't happen any other way...

Spot the next thought you have that has an 'I' or 'me' in it... can you find in DE what that word in thought is referring to?
It foremost refers to the personality structure, and then the body.

Can you find the personality structure in your DE right now?

:)
Gunnar

[JustinCase]

Hey Gunnar,

What are the minuscule amounts of tactile sensations you speak of? Do those sensations comprise/make up thought, or are they an effect of it?

The tactile sensations are just vaguely there, like in the example of the spoon, or when you feel that a thought has some form of presence and "weight" that "pushes" onto the mind. They are kind of both comprising and and effect of it.

Yes, awareness just aware-ing. Are you awareness? Do 'you' have any control over how awareness operates?

I (the false self) is not awareness, and I have no control or knowledge how it operates. It just "sits" there, observing. A bit creepy. Voyeuristic. :)

It’s about the truth — that identity doesn’t point to anything. Fade, not fade—whatever. The point is that it is fiction. The strength of the fiction or the content of thought is irrelevant - you can be out in nature with lots of mental space to see the truth of the fiction. OR you can be busy at work, caught up in trying to get things done and solve problems. Either way, the key is knowing that the separate self is fiction. Some days, I meditate a bit more and things are quieter, other days I'm busy and the mind is a flurry of thoughts. SAME underlying reality. Impermanent states/feelings/thoughts come and go. No self or 'I' to be found.

I am aware of this fact.

So look at the “I” thought. That’s all that is needed. Look behind the “I” thought. What’s there?

I am not sure I understand the idea of "I" thought. Could you elaborate, please?
But, if I understood it right, behind "I" there is awareness (the ever-present observer) and then there is the void.
Here's a story:
I have a memory of "my first memory"... There is this black bubble-shaped perception/environment/space with a hint of a window, I guess, adjacent from the center, through which daylight comes in. Must be the apartment where we lived once. That memory follows me up to this day and I can sense it as "I" - the whole bubble; There is a observer observing itself; perceiver-perception-(object)perceived.
Upon contemplation, I see that the "I" is the body-mind vessel, together with the environment that the vessel appears in, AND the awareness within which all of them appear. Furthermore, I can conclude that the whole shebang is the false sense of self, since that bubble-awareness had a beginning. "The source" from which it came from is non-existent and completely unperceivable; void, nothingness, Truth (with a capital T).
From my DE I can sense it to be true, but it comes and goes - it isn't abiding.
So, behind "I" there appears to be nothing.

IF AWAKENING WERE TO HAPPEN, IT WOULD BE JUST THIS. Can you allow everything to be just as it is, even the process of selfing and mind identification, Justin? What are you fighting against?

This a though one, personally.
A torrent of emotions flooded me... anger, agitation, sadness, grief, antagonism etc.
I am sure I cannot allow everything to be just as it is. The reason is that it ain't pleasant being Justin. I just don't like being me. It wouldn't matter if the whole personality structure just falls away. I would welcome it. Just like a spring clean, I would clean everything out, and then, if I find the desire, put some things back again. This time consciously, though. Throughout this existence the ego has been in a constant tug-of-war with itself; constant dissonance. I would say that I have been fighting against myself and the reality that came out as a consequence of that cluttered, dissonant, fearful persona. At times I wish I could go straight for the jugular and ruthlessly rip it out (figuratively speaking of course), just to stop being "me".
I understand that this process here isn't about changing the ego, but I wanted it out there for you to see. (I hope that, after crashing through the gate, I will be able to sort things out... If I still want it :))

Hmmm.. well what are you supposed to do or what did you do with that imaginary watermelon that I gave you earlier?

I could not do anything with that watermelon, except observe it in imagination. But that imagination made me crave some watermelon, so I ran to the store and bought some. Then there was an experience of "satisfactorily eating watermelon". As false as it is, it is still an experience. No more and no less than stubbing a toe, or having an orgasm.
What I am trying to say is that certain illusions have certain illusory consequences. What can I do with that? All of those preferences and duality ... How to transcend them? Do they fall off on their own after passing the gate, or do those preferences still linger?

Or how bout with santa - when you realized that he wasn't real, what was the process of shedding that belief?

This analogy is good, but I can only relate to it conceptually, since I come from a culture that doesn't believe in Santa, and the children KINDA believe in him, so I cannot say anything from memory or upon examining my DE of the memory, unfortunately.

Don't fight this process. Let it happen. LET IT ALL HAPPEN. See that it can't happen any other way...

This is something that I have stumbled across many times and I could never ever understand it.
HOW to let it happen? Let what happen exactly? Who lets it happen? How can there be a "happening"? Who fights the process? How can there even be a process? How to distinguish the process from other activities like eating, sleeping, showering, smoking, gambling, etc.? Are they part of it? How can I know? Can I know? Can I feel it intuitively? Wouldn't it be ego distinguishing one from another? And what if the ego has a self-sabotaging nature - how can I trust myself I am actually letting it happen vs distracting myself away from it?
It is so confusing.

[JustinCase]

Can you find the personality structure in your DE right now?

Nope. No structure detected. Just the sensation of existing.

Best regards,
J

[gmalen]

Justin,

So look at the “I” thought. That’s all that is needed. Look behind the “I” thought. What’s there?

I am not sure I understand the idea of "I" thought. Could you elaborate, please?

Alright. Well let's explore the thought "There is a table beneath this laptop/computer." Think that thought consciously once or twice. Now let's look at the word 'table' in that thought. We can find that table in direct experience - we can knock on it (sound and tactile sensation), we can see its color/form (sight), we could lick it to get its taste, it might have a woodsy smell to it. It's plain and simple, we look for the thought word 'table' in DE and we can find proof of it in the senses.

Now, think the thought "I am reading this message. I am trying this exercise." In the same way that you matter-of-factly looked for the table, look for what the thought word 'I' is referring to in direct experience.

How did this go?

I have a memory of "my first memory"... There is this black bubble-shaped perception/environment/space with a hint of a window, I guess, adjacent from the center, through which daylight comes in. Must be the apartment where we lived once. That memory follows me up to this day and I can sense it as "I" - the whole bubble; There is a observer observing itself; perceiver-perception-(object)perceived.
Upon contemplation, I see that the "I" is the body-mind vessel, together with the environment that the vessel appears in, AND the awareness within which all of them appear. Furthermore, I can conclude that the whole shebang is the false sense of self, since that bubble-awareness had a beginning. "The source" from which it came from is non-existent and completely unperceivable; void, nothingness, Truth (with a capital T).

Wow, what a clear memory of this.. cool. Indeed, some like you clearly remember this moment when the 'self began'. Great to have that experience and use it as a guidepost.

From my DE I can sense it to be true, but it comes and goes - it isn't abiding.
So, behind "I" there appears to be nothing.

Liberation is very simple. IT IS NOT SUSTAINING SOME BELIEF OR EXPERIENCE. It is simply seeing the truth of the illusion, and then letting it unfold. The mess of stuff that was built on that assumption will start to gradually fall away over time.

So get this: passing through the gate is not the dropping away of mind identification. That’s impossible, because the mind just churns out these thoughts and ideas as part of its structure. It’s seeing that all this identification is fundamentally fictional, because there was no you, is no you, and never will be a you in real life.

Just keep sensing into this, let the seeing come and go, you don't need to maintain it or anything of the sort. There's not a 'you' doing the seeing. Seeing is just happening. Look. Who is reading this right now?

Hmmm.. well what are you supposed to do or what did you do with that imaginary watermelon that I gave you earlier?
I could not do anything with that watermelon, except observe it in imagination. But that imagination made me crave some watermelon, so I ran to the store and bought some. Then there was an experience of "satisfactorily eating watermelon". As false as it is, it is still an experience. No more and no less than stubbing a toe, or having an orgasm.
What I am trying to say is that certain illusions have certain illusory consequences. What can I do with that?

Absolutely nothing. 'You' did nothing, 'you' can't do anything, and 'you' won't do anything. Did 'you' choose to crave the watermelon? Or did craving just arise?

Was there a 'you' that chose to go buy one? Was there a 'you' that enjoyed eating it? Look back and try to find where 'you' were in all of that.

All of those preferences and duality ... How to transcend them? Do they fall off on their own after passing the gate, or do those preferences still linger?

No transcending at this point. As I said up above: "It is simply seeing the truth of the illusion, and then letting things unfold from there. The mess of stuff that was built on that assumption will start to gradually fall away over time."

Preferences and the character of 'Justin' will largely remain, but things like reactivity and dualities like a feeling of separation may fade if one wishes to deepen the realization. Let's leave that for the future though, don't worry so much about what's ahead, and recognize that there is nothing in this moment excluding you from passing through the gate. It's all right here. THE SELF DOES NOT EXIST. You've seen this. Keep seeing it. Don't fight this process or believe the thought 'woe is me, I can't see the truth' story. It's like you can see it, but you don't totally believe it yet at the core of your being. Cool. It'll happen. No worries. IT WILL HAPPEN. It's out of 'your' hands.

This is something that I have stumbled across many times and I could never ever understand it.
HOW to let it happen? Let what happen exactly? Who lets it happen? How can there be a "happening"? Who fights the process? How can there even be a process? How to distinguish the process from other activities like eating, sleeping, showering, smoking, gambling, etc.? Are they part of it? How can I know? Can I know? Can I feel it intuitively? Wouldn't it be ego distinguishing one from another? And what if the ego has a self-sabotaging nature - how can I trust myself I am actually letting it happen vs distracting myself away from it?
It is so confusing.

It's a paradox, indeed. Surrender starts to happen naturally when you see reality for what it is - that there was, is, and never will be a 'you' controlling or managing life. That it's always happened on its own. When this is seen clearly, there's nothing 'you' can do but let things happen. This will come. For now, take this pointer: You can't not let everything happen. Everything IS just happening. Literally everything, including selfing and resistance and mind identification and suffering. You are controlling NONE of it. What would your day look like if this was embraced? What would be different?

This a though one, personally.
A torrent of emotions flooded me... anger, agitation, sadness, grief, antagonism etc.
I am sure I cannot allow everything to be just as it is.

Can you allow 'not allowing everything to be just as it is' to be just as it is? ;)

The reason is that it ain't pleasant being Justin. I just don't like being me. It wouldn't matter if the whole personality structure just falls away. I would welcome it. Just like a spring clean, I would clean everything out, and then, if I find the desire, put some things back again. This time consciously, though. Throughout this existence the ego has been in a constant tug-of-war with itself; constant dissonance. I would say that I have been fighting against myself and the reality that came out as a consequence of that cluttered, dissonant, fearful persona. At times I wish I could go straight for the jugular and ruthlessly rip it out (figuratively speaking of course), just to stop being "me".
I understand that this process here isn't about changing the ego, but I wanted it out there for you to see. (I hope that, after crashing through the gate, I will be able to sort things out... If I still want it :))

Thanks for the honesty. My body/mind has been there, and still feels this ways sometimes. The beauty of this all is that you can sort things out... right now... by seeing that these thoughts about a messy, tug of war, dissonance, fighting against myself kind of persona are complete fiction. They are not pointing to anything or anyone in reality.

So here's an exercise for this: Find a phrase that hits home to the core of this matter. It may be something like: "I'm a failure", "I'm messed up" "I'm defected" "I'm not good enough", "I'm unlovable", "i'm incapable".

Choose one and sit down in a comfortable posture and calmly recite the words in your mind. See/feel/hear what arises... Perhaps some contraction or tight sensations in the gut/chest/throat... Some thoughts coming up that try to affirm or deny the statement... I want you to parse out each individual thought and sensation and inquire: "Is this the unlovable/not good enough/incapable self?" And just look there... Is this very sensation or thought this not-good-enough self? As you say your original phrase every so often, keep looking at whatever arises and see if any of it is indeed that not-good-enough self that feels so real. And be honest with yourself, if it does feel real, look closer at what that sense of the not-good-enough self is really made up of. Keep parsing it out. Tell me how this goes.

With love,
Gunnar

[JustinCase]

Hey

So look at the “I” thought. That’s all that is needed. Look behind the “I” thought. What’s there?
(...)
Now, think the thought "I am reading this message. I am trying this exercise." In the same way that you matter-of-factly looked for the table, look for what the thought word 'I' is referring to in direct experience.

How did this go?

I believe I understood you.
I used the story to try and describe my DE of "what is behind the "I" thought".
The answer would be: Behind the "I" thought appears to be just awareness, followed by nothing(ness).

There's not a 'you' doing the seeing. Seeing is just happening. Look. Who is reading this right now?

The natural response to this is: I am reading this.
But who is the I that is being referred to?
We could say that the I, which is reading this, is an apparatus that perceives certain shapes, forms, or symbols and translates them into meaningful packets of information - ideas, thoughts, meanings. If we would give that apparatus a proper name, body-mind would perhaps do the job pretty good, since the act of reading can be boiled down to sensations and thoughts.
Therefore, the body-mind is reading this and the I identifies itself with the body-mind entity. The same could be applied to any kind of perception, like watching, communicating, thinking, etc.
But furthermore, who is asking who the I is that is being referred to? (Can we do that?)
And again, who is wondering who is asking who the I is that is being referred to?
Who observes who is wondering who is asking who is the I that is being refer to ...
Who observes the one who observes?
Am I getting somewhere or am I thinking I am getting somewhere?
Crazy carousel.
To answer the question: there is no real subject reading this. Reading happens within illusion. Illusion is being observed.

Did 'you' choose to crave the watermelon? Or did craving just arise?

Was there a 'you' that chose to go buy one? Was there a 'you' that enjoyed eating it? Look back and try to find where 'you' were in all of that.

It all comes back to the experiencing structure that I refer to as body-mind. It reacted to the image of a watermelon, and then it sent a signal that can be interpreted as craving. Then an impulse was sent to act upon the signal. Eating, tasting, and enjoying arose on its own as a signal from the body-mind itself. And there, fully immersed and identified with it all, sits the voyeur, unattached, but ever-present.
In summary, there is an unattached observer, observing the interchangeable play of sensations and thoughts, impulses and ideas, acts and reflections upon the act.
Was there a "me"? Not really. But it is still "me" that identifies itself with "me", and not with the observer. What now? :O

Literally everything, including selfing and resistance and mind identification and suffering. You are controlling NONE of it. What would your day look like if this was embraced? What would be different?

I am afraid to let it happen, or for "me" to be "me". I am afraid, if I would embrace it, I would hurt people (psychologically); family, wife, friends... All would be different. Right now, the life that Justin is living is almost 180 degrees removed from the core of his personality.
I don't know how to answer this without going into Justin's psychological profile. There are layers upon layers clashing with each other. Just being aware of it happening is tiresome and results in anguish. Do you want me to elaborate the landscape of Justin?

Can you allow 'not allowing everything to be just as it is' to be just as it is? ;)

Hahaha ... good one. I love it. :)
That is a mind twister, but I will try it out and then report back to you.

So here's an exercise for this: Find a phrase that hits home to the core of this matter. It may be something like: "I'm a failure", "I'm messed up" "I'm defected" "I'm not good enough", "I'm unlovable", "i'm incapable".

Choose one and sit down in a comfortable posture and calmly recite the words in your mind. See/feel/hear what arises...

I will do this as soon as I get the time for it.

Thanks for the guidance,
Justin

[gmalen]

Justin,

I used the story to try and describe my DE of "what is behind the "I" thought".
The answer would be: Behind the "I" thought appears to be just awareness, followed by nothing(ness).

Great. Yes, the important aspect of this is that no "I" can be found. Awareness/nothingness are good landing points, but the insight here is that no separate, controlling self exists.

There's not a 'you' doing the seeing. Seeing is just happening. Look. Who is reading this right now?

The natural response to this is: I am reading this.
But who is the I that is being referred to?
We could say that the I, which is reading this, is an apparatus that perceives certain shapes, forms, or symbols and translates them into meaningful packets of information - ideas, thoughts, meanings. If we would give that apparatus a proper name, body-mind would perhaps do the job pretty good, since the act of reading can be boiled down to sensations and thoughts.

Do you have any control over this apparatus? Does it have any consistency or solidity? If the answer is no to these questions, how is this apparatus different from something like the clouds in the sky, the tree out the window, the table in front of you? Are all these things equally not who 'you' are?

But furthermore, who is asking who the I is that is being referred to? (Can we do that?)
And again, who is wondering who is asking who the I is that is being referred to?
Who observes who is wondering who is asking who is the I that is being refer to ...
Who observes the one who observes?
Am I getting somewhere or am I thinking I am getting somewhere?
Crazy carousel.
To answer the question: there is no real subject reading this. Reading happens within illusion. Illusion is being observed.

LOVE IT! The mind is a crazy carousel, eh? Swift, elusive. disorienting. Fun sometimes. Sickening others... I like to think of the mind as a hall of mirrors sometimes. You have all these thoughts occurring, reflecting one another, bouncing back and forth, analyzing one another, a never ending ripple effect. Until... all the sudden... awareness notices that it's been rapt up in thought - a moment of mindfulness (not done by 'you' but just occurring naturally).

Then, the mind might start again, "dang, these non-stop thoughts are annoying, I don't want them". And that too.... is just another thought.... hmmmm... What happens when... you just... stop... fighting... what is??? How does the mind get off the carousel? What do you think?

In summary, there is an unattached observer, observing the interchangeable play of sensations and thoughts, impulses and ideas, acts and reflections upon the act.
Was there a "me"? Not really. But it is still "me" that identifies itself with "me", and not with the observer. What now?

You sure you want to know?... okay... here goes.... So what now???? Nothing............ There's nothing to do........ But there's nothing not to do either...... Just to see clearly what you are describing, but no one is doing the seeing. Watch how the 'me still identifies with 'me' and not the observer. There's no 'you' that has control over this process, so there's no 'you' to stop it. Clear seeing is happening.

Can you allow 'not allowing everything to be just as it is' to be just as it is? ;)
Hahaha ... good one. I love it. :)
That is a mind twister, but I will try it out and then report back to you.

Yes, please keep working with this. I sense this an important piece for you.

Literally everything, including selfing and resistance and mind identification and suffering. You are controlling NONE of it. What would your day look like if this was embraced? What would be different?

I am afraid to let it happen, or for "me" to be "me". I am afraid, if I would embrace it, I would hurt people (psychologically); family, wife, friends... All would be different. Right now, the life that Justin is living is almost 180 degrees removed from the core of his personality.
I don't know how to answer this without going into Justin's psychological profile. There are layers upon layers clashing with each other. Just being aware of it happening is tiresome and results in anguish. Do you want me to elaborate the landscape of Justin?

No, not necessary to describe the landscape of 'justin' now. Tell me if this resonates: You are taking all the parts of the body/mind that you don't like and calling them 'Justin', and then taking all the parts of the body/mind that you do like (ones that care about generosity, non-harming, integrity, etc.) and thinking of them or feeling them as 'me', the 'good guy', the 'one that should be heeded', 'THE CONTROLLER' , 'the manager'. Both of these illusive entities are not you. Just different thought patterns that pass through the body/mind. Some seemingly useful, some quite the opposite. When you fully surrender and let things happen, both of these storylines/narratives/parts of the body/mind continue, and the way they interact usually becomes enhanced and healthier without the shame, guilt, frustration, resistance that builds up on the belief that there is a 'you' that is controlling, responsible for, or managing all of it. Passing through the gate, I still have addictive, harmful, selfish thoughts AND I still have the thoughts valuing truth, goodness, service. They still do their dance and try to sway things in their own direction. Surrendering to all of this means giving up the illusion that I ever had any control or say in the matter to begin with. You will continue to hurt people less and less as the awakening deepens, but that is out of 'your' hands. It's just an inevitable effect of seeing through the separation of self and other.

Welcome, such a delight to be conversing with you.
Gunnar

[JustinCase]

Hello, Gunnar. :)

I won't be able to post a response today. I come back to it tomorrow.

Regards,
Justin

[gmalen]

:)

[JustinCase]

Hey,

Life entered an overwhelming episode again. I will post as soon as I can. I hope that is ok.

J

[gmalen]

Justin,

No worries at all, Justin, thank you for the heads up.

Life is always trying to wake you up to what is real. Don’t fight it. This isn’t halting your clear seeing, it’s the fuel for it. You probably didn’t ask for this overwhelming period, and you can’t wish it away. Look now for the ‘one’ who is overwhelmed. All you find is scattered thoughts and sensations - are these ‘you’? Keep looking for the controller, the manager, the “I” that only appears in the thought world. Look in your direct experience and see how everything is happening beyond your control… It’s just a thought that says otherwise.

Peace and smooth sailing,
Gunnar