A conversation about what is

[Juliooo]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
In direct experience, it might seem like there is an « i » in there looking at a world « out there ». However, investigating that « i », it turns out to be more of a process of identifying rather tham a real thing called a self. It would be more accurate to say that there is « selfing ». An activity, not a thing.

What are you looking for at LU?
To get clarity on my current practice, which is without guidance of any teacher. My path has mainly been by my own and therefore there might be blindspots regarding my perception. Although there is no inherent self, and the process of « awakening » is a huge paradox because there can’t be any experience except the direct experience, and it already is the way it is, my day to day experience doesn’t always reside in that presence and understanding. That is why a guide would be helpful.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
A dialogue would help me see where « i » am still stuck. Being without a teacher on this journey makes it hard to really be objective. I don’t expect anyone to give me concrete answers, but rather to ask me questions that i can reflect upon and that help me realize- unclog my perception.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
The « seeking » journey began 4 years ago when i was 16. It started with the discovery of astral projection, lucid dreaming and then meditation. End of 2018 First real profound experience: after relaxing into meditation through letting go- do nothing (no knowledge of that technique at that point, just happened), went into a blissful loving place of being that seemed at the time divine. This felt sense that what i am experiencing is intimate as well as transcendent. around 2019 i explored alot with meditation under the influence of cannabis. The main shifts were ego identification that shapeshifts and perpetuates itself by indentifying again and again with thoughts/sensations. What sees the ego before perceived as « the observer was now perceived as also the ego. The snake that bites it’s own tail. the paradox of a spiritual quest in time which goes against what is and always is now, which is what is became quite obvious. At this point my main source of inspiration was the books i read (ekhart tolle) as well as lectures from ram dass, alan watts and other mainstream spiritual teachers. 23/04/2020 Unconditional loving: one of the most powerful and intense experiences of « my » life. Through total letting go-do nothing meditation (that i just did intuitively) and my heart being wide open because i fell in love, energy intensified through the whole body and with each breath/conscious relaxation the energy would get more intense. To the point where it was so overwhelming there was a profound letting go. What followed was a lived experience where my heart opened and the « universal energy of unconditional love » as i used to call it embraced me. Merging in the one, the droplet realising it is part of the ocean. Feeling like the universe hugs me. Body vibrated for an hour after the experience. This lived experience made me think that everything is REALLY one, one fundamental layer of reality that is unconcievable. And love being the force of « unity consciousness ». There was not a particular change in day to day consciousness except that this time i really lived and knew those experiences were real and profound. That there really is something there to be « discovered ».
The next year was a humbling experience. Realizing that the high i felt faded, that i still didn’t know anything at all and my ego structure started recognizing itself as never being able to grasp/hold truth. What followed was a profound unknowing, disidentification (that is still a process going on today). Realizing that i know nothing, the i is empty therefore cannot conceive reality. No concepts will ever help, no understanding will ever happen for the ego to realize anything.
Meditations started to be less intense, but occasional glimpses of the i stopping it’s movement. The non doing. The glimpse that there is nothing to do, nowhere to stand and that things are just being done, with no doer it is a big void inside, allowing nature or the world to just be as it is with no inside comentary. A lived realization that inside and outside really don’t exist.
Meditations at this point are the goal of letting go completely to enter total emptiness/void. Concepts like « there is nothing to do, nowhere to stand » or « becoming nobody » really started to be experienced by what is really beyond the conceptual mind. Recognition that the i doesn’t get enlightened, nobody gets enlightened because there is no i or person left (this concept was definitely not as clear as perceived now, but it started to emerge)
October 2021 Lsd ego death: after experimenting a few time with psychedelics and getting into pretty intense mind states combining them with meditation (tapping into unity consciousness) i decided to take a bigger dose. That night i died. The lsd not even an hour in was desintegrating every part of the ego structure. I was loosing myself and there was nothing i could do. I literally felt like i was going to go crazy or die.At that point there is an inner recognition that this moment can either be fought, with drastic consequences or be totally allowed. Second option was taken. Lied down in bed, felt every sense of identification/self destroy and it was totally out of the i’s control. Suddenly everything was dissolved, and a shift happened where suddenly awareness went nowhere (at the point where the self completely disappeared) and simultaneously became the whole space, aware of itself as itself. It became absolutely obvious that reality is what there is. It can’t go anywhere, it is already there. Very visceral experience. Then a flood of insights the i wasn’t able to grasp flooded through the body.
12. Integration of the experience. Intellectual understanding is that i know the whole concept of sef to be an absolute illusion, for a fact. I know every identification i create isn’t real, i know that the i on an ultimate level doesn’t exist. That when the self disappears completely reality wakes up to ITSELF. No doer at all. Baseline consciousness is the understanding of these things, but it does not accord with my everyday life which seems less in order. Still the tendency to want to escape to that nothingness, bypass the material stuff.
2022: Sober meditations also became really profound. With the mind entering extremely rapidly into complete silence/void. Opening of the heart again, after it being pretty much closed since the breakup, understanding that the ego never drops away permanently. Psychedelics showed me through when they were not there the inevitable truth that ego does come back and that it is not about not having an i but balancing infinity/void with the paradoxical nature of our experience as « i ». To incarnate spirit into form and not escape form to spirit. Was way more connected to my heart, to being. It felt like an opening again (same cycle as two years prior). Meeting jules (my current girlfriend, has the same name as me), having a complete ego death into her eyes and merging as one eye with her. One seer through different lenses. Complete recognition of it’s oneness

Second half of 2022. Counterpart of the opening, jules is back in canada. Dissolition of self and an unknowing of everything came again, more intense then before. There was a complete paradox where all of what i wanted to do was seen as empty because coming from « i ». Everything « i » related became completely absurd to the point where even meditating seemed funny because there is no meditator. through inquiry emptyness was perceived everywhere, even what i thought as pure awareness was seen as empty. Really no ground at all, nothing. No will to do anything, lack of energy, feeling no free will at all and at the same time being in unhealthy cycles with weed but seeing the emptyness of that too. Dissolved my will to meditate, also completely changed the perspective on the path. Didn’t even maintain the idea of awakening or a path because that was still seen as empty in reality.

Untill that point my meditations were without any formal practice or guidance. I just started with self inquiry « who am i » and then they naturally became more « do nothing » meditations (didn’t know about shinzen young or adyashanti or anyone formally teaching those meditations at that point)
This year i started doing classic vipassana, but i find it hard to focus on an object for long, the duality between obeserver and observed tends to collapse quickly. I realize now that all these years i didn’t really train concentration in any ways because my meditations were mostly do nothing. So i am now doing noting and then open awareness/just sitting. Lately i’m meditating almost an hour everyday, meditations feel extremely different each day going from being extremely happy to be in form and having an « i » to the other extreme where i feel like i am actually dying and dissolving.

I tried to go as much in detail as possible because i think it would be helpful for you to see where my blockages in my formulation/speech as well as my path are.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
8

[Anastacia42]

My goodness! You've done a lot. At LU we guide to the recognition of no self and with that, Fetters 2 & 3, doubt and rites & rituals usually also drop away. After we confirm your seeing here, you may want to go into Ten Fetters work. There's a teleconference group for that.

Why only an 8 on willingness to question beliefs about "self?"
Hi,

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you know yourself to be a skeptical person, prone to doubt, I may not be the best guide for you. I never had any doubt. I can connect you with one of our other guides who did & who can guide you better than I.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Please keep your answers brief & succinct.

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Loving,

[Juliooo]

My goodness! You've done a lot. At LU we guide to the recognition of no self and with that, Fetters 2 & 3, doubt and rites & rituals usually also drop away. After we confirm your seeing here, you may want to go into Ten Fetters work. There's a teleconference group for that.

Hello, i will look more into Ten Fetters work. I would also like to join the teleconference group if possible.

Why only an 8 on willingness to question beliefs about "self?"

i consider 10 as an absolute no whereas i feel like there can be underlying beliefs about myself that i do not perceive.

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

hello Stacy, i want to thank you for dedicating your time for this. I appreciate it very much, I would like you to be my guide yes!

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it.

I have read and fully agree with what is stated in the disclaimer as well as « what Liberation Unleashed is not ».

How will life change?

- Maybe there would be an end of the seeking that has been going on. Maybe it would also change the relationship to thoughts and the identification with that.

How will you change?

i do not know if i will change. I do not expect this process to be a change in my personality but, it seems like there is something that changes regarding how i experience this moment.

What will be different?

I don’t know if anything would be different, but it may change how they are perceived and interpreted. So i want to say yes and no.

What is missing?

i notice there is a big contradiction because when i inquire no thing can be missing it’s all here. But also i do read and listen to various types of spiritual material and there is still seeking going on, my mind projecting into future moments and all of that as if this moment was missing something. But on inquiry right now, nothing is missing.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

I did not know we would call, but of course i would love to if that is what you meant. The time zone here is CET (central eastern time)
Also please tell me if i used the quote function correctly, and if i need to be less/more elaborate in my answers. Again, thank you very much!

[Anastacia42]

Thank you. All good.

I did not know we would call, but of course i would love to if that is what you meant

This means what is your name?



Okay, what comes up when you read that there is no separate self, never has been and never will be? That it is all just a made up story?

Loving,

[Juliooo]

This means what is your name?

ooh i’m sorry i missunderstood!! My name is Jules, pleasure to meet you.

Okay, what comes up when you read that there is no separate self, never has been and never will be? That it is all just a made up story?

- the duality i create between myself (in here) and the world (out there) is not actually real but constructed through identification with thoughts and the senses. It creates a perception that there is an « i » with free will, and this « i » has a story of how it can change and affect the perceived outside world.

- What i know for a fact, but definitely don’t abide in that state all the time, is that this « self » everytime it is investigated turns out to be empty. There is no looker in here looking at the world out there. As the self and the boundaries turn out to be not actually there, it feels like i am just what there is. No one inside or outside. No separation, and nothing personal as in something is « me » or « mine » everything is just it. That state is timeless, meaning it feels like it is always there as the source of every moment and therefore never not there. It feels like this identification process veils that natural state. And that state contains all of the other without ever being affected. So every story about who i am isn’t true, everything i conceptialise about the world, myself, spirituality etc are all just words and stories. It has never been true.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Jules,

Thank you.

Yes, all of that is true.

There is no "ego" and no "I" to come back. You can believe the untrue story again, but that doesn't make it "real." Also, be aware that there seems to be an Absolute reality where all is one and a "relative" reality where we operate as if we are separate, even though we are not. We do this for convenience to get along with the 99% of humanity that has not seen what you have seen.

It is like Santa Claus. You found out Santa Claus was just a man, possibly your father, in a red suit. Great. When he puts the suit back on, it is still just a man. You can't believe that he is some jolly guy that lives at the North Pole. You know, even though he is dressed up, that it's a just a man.

"Self" is the same way.

Does that make sense?

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Loving,

[Juliooo]

Does that make sense?

- Yes, it makes a lot of sense. I can’t unsee the fact that the self - i am a construction. however it doesn’t stop the self from creating stories again and again where « i » seem real. And then it creates this duality in the mind where i am aware of the story as well as the storyteller. There also seems to be an absolute reality containing a relative. When i interact with people i sometimes can stay in that oneness but most of the times it’s like i become a solid self because that’s what arises out of the interaction.

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

- it is clear that it is not about accumulated knowledge and the stories the mind creates about past experiences. I will refer to DE for the questions asked.

[Anastacia42]

Good. Then here is your first pointer to see how you do:


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[Juliooo]

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

- Watching the room, simply = image/color
- Listening to music, simply = sound
- Thinking about this exercise and what it does, simply = thought
- Looking at the moon, simply = image/color
- breathing, simply = sensation
- Thinking about tuning into the body, simply = thought
- Feeling the body, simply = sensation
- Feeling cold in the fingers, simply = sensation
- Stretching, simply = sensation
- Spatial representation of the body eyes closed, simply = image/colour
- Drinking from water bottle, simply = sensation
- Holding water bottle, simply = sensation
- Thinking about brushing my teeth, simply = thought
- Holding the toothbrush, simply = sensation
- Smelling toothpaste, simply = smell
- Toothbrush against my teeth, simply = sensation
- Looking at myself brushing my teeth, simply = image/colour
- Tasting the toothpaste, simply = taste
- Thinking about tomorrow’s tasks, simply = thought
- Noticing the thinking about tomorrow’s tasks, simply = ? sound? (a thought comes about  noticing that first thought it is bringing up the sound of the first one, like a sound memory- replay of the first one. it is not clear, It is perceived as hearing)
- Thinking about writing that down, simply = thought
- Petting the cat, simply = sensation
- Looking at the cat, simply = image/colour.
- Hearing the cat purr, simply = sound
- Mind image of me skiing, simply = image/colour

[Anastacia42]

All very good. You've got it.

Here's the next pointer:

Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,

[Juliooo]

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

- it doesn’t feel like one is truer then the other on some level because both are just labels. But on a relative level the one without labeling with « i » seems more accurate because there isn’t a point of view and storytelling. But it isn’t accurate either ultimately because still a label.

2. What is here without labels?

- no THING. Labels make things exist-appear as something. Without the label it is not a thing in itself separate from anything else. Without labels, there is still looking and hearing but they aren’t perceived as something. Without labels, what is here is just what is here. There is no way to frame it.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

- labels describe the experience. They don’t really affect it. In the first exercise with the « i » labeling, it felt more like « i » was choosing what to focus my attention more. It felt more like « i » was in control. In other words the « i » felt like it was inquiring into that. But doing the second exercise, nothing changed except that this time i didn’t feel in control at all. No thought choosing where attention goes, everything just happening spontaneously. It also felt less spatial. Sounds felt like they were not coming from « somewhere ». So labels only describe the experience and make the i relate to it in a different way. But the experience itself is not affected.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

- it felt less at a distance, less spatial the second time (no i label). Without the labeling of « i », things feel less « outside » of me. Sounds just appear, they don’t seem here or there. Same with vision, it is just seen. Whereas labeling with i it imediately seems like i am looking at something « over there »
- It felt less in the head the second time. It was way calmer (no sense of being a doer) and it became very still, the sense that it is all hapening by itself is there more. The sense of being nowhere also arose.
- Way more sensations were perceived in a lesser amount of time without the i label. But also it still feels like putting a label on something that is unable to be labelled. So on a relative level more accurate, but ultimately still not accurate.

This is a very fun exercise! Thank you!

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

Glad you liked it. It is very helpful to LOOK in this way. Good job. Many people don't get #3, but you did. Excellent. So . . .

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.

We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,

[Juliooo]

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

- lying to a friend about a school week-> when i bring up the lie, there is tension in the heart, it feels like squeezing. The interpretation of that is unease. There is also tightness in the throat, and an emotion that i would interpret as guilt.
- Creating a lie right now: « i don’t like my cats » -> tightness in the chest, throat. interpretation of the mind is unease and guilt for lying/ not being authentic.
- Both times the exact same sensations arose. The feeling/emotion (which is an interpretation of the body sensations) makes the « i » feel responsible and heavy.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

- there is definitely a difference between the raw sensation and then the interpretation of that sensation. There is a difference between tightness in the chest and the mind interpreting that as guilt-unease. It feels like without labeling it, it is less a « thing », (as we talked about for question 2: what is here without labels.)
- If i bring up a lie that i create, then just focus on the sensations, the story dissipates very quickly and so the sensations dissipate quickly as well. It very quickly fades.

It really struck me when you said that the story of self is also a lie that i tell myself. It is so obviously the case, and i never thought about inquiring into what it feels like to lie!! I will continue to inquire into this in daily life. Thank you

[Anastacia42]

It really struck me when you said that the story of self is also a lie that i tell myself. It is so obviously the case, and i never thought about inquiring into what it feels like to lie!! I will continue to inquire into this in daily life. Thank you

Beautiful! Yes. Exactly.


Moving on, here's a pointer to look at "control," "intention," and "free will."

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Loving,

[Juliooo]

How is the movement controlled?

- it is quite paradoxical. It can feel like it is in my control as well as not at the same time. For example the movement can be going on for a while and it seems like i’m just looking at something going on outside of « my » control. But then i can tell myself « now i will move it in 10 seconds » and that is what happens. The movement doesn’t feel like it’s controlled from anywhere though, even when it feels like a thought controls it the thought can totally be an effect and not the cause.

Does a thought control it?

- it can seem like it does as i stated for the last question, and it also can seem like it doesn’t. I can also tell myself, « now i choose not to move it » and the hand will move anyways. But i can also tell myself « i choose not to move it » and actually not move it. So it goes back to previous exercises, it feels like thought is describing-commentating on what is happening but it is impossible to state that the thought controls the action. Again the thought could be a consequence and not the cause. Everything would be the same without the commentary it feels like.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

- there is definitely thought activity that seems in control in the head (the thinker/doer) but it actually doesn’t choose any action. It just commentates. It is impossible to tell what is controling the movements. Sometimes it felt like the hand was just in a rythm and what is controlling the movements is rythm/timing. But it is impossible to locate a place where actions are taken. Even though again the thoughts take credit for the action as if they are choosing it. But it could be that the action is implying certain thoughts to arise- make sense of the action.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

- I can tell myself « now i turn » and the hand will turn. But i can also not say anything ane the hand will turn. It is impossible to locate where any decision is made physically. I can be aware of the initiation of movement and the movement, but it doesn’t feel like that is what is creating it. What makes sense to me is that everything is a cause of everything else. And the chain of choices it seems like i am doing are not choices at all but just what is arising. And then the « i » takes credit for that by creating an appropriate commentary.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

nothing chose, the left hand was just in my pocket so the right hand was looked at. It seems to be a good example of what is going on with the other things. The right hand came up because it was appropriate and i didn’t choose, just like everything else.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

nothing IS choosing. But « i » can FEEL like i am choosing. I can feel like an individual choosing but this can be there or not there it doesn’t affect what is happening. So it seems to be an individual but again, it’s just a story it’s not real in any way in DE.