Flying

[Aguila]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Conceptually I know that the “I” is a mental construct that on one hand is useful to organize our daily life, on the other it restricts us in our possibilities because it reduces our life to certain stories. The “I” is the result of an innumerable series of events creating our genetic, cultural and psychological setup.

What are you looking for at LU?
Really believing in this, feeling it and living by it, seems out of my reach. Support to take the conceptual knowing of no-self to a practical level: to actually experience it, to take it from the brain to the gut, to have it impact "my" life.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope that someone who has crossed the gateless gate can help me through the process. To have the overview to see my blind spots or where I am stuck or where I run in circles - and possibly to have the right questions (probably not answers) or exercises to help me back on track. With enough patience since I tend to be doubtful of everything (including myself, my thoughts and sensations).

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
9 years of meditation of various kinds and degrees, mostly zazen and similar, both alone and in groups. Lots of talks and books on meditation, seeking and awakening of various schools from various religions.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[JonathanR]

Hello Aguila,

Thank you for your introduction, which makes a good deal of sense.

I'm Jon. Pleased to meet you, and I will be happy to help by providing suitable pointers to help you through the process.

Would you like to get started now? If so let me know and we can get going?

Assuming that you do want to start here is the first question:

Please tell me what is your current understanding of what "you" are?

Warm regards

Jon

[Aguila]

Thank you very much for taking the time and energy to support me, Jon!
Sorry for the delay: just found the notifications in the spam filter, so that should be solved now.

My current understanding of “I”:

This body people call “Aguila” is associated with “I”. It has needs and sensations that “I” identify with. There are also thoughts, related to the brain function of this body, that also somehow are part of “I”. There is a history of education, socialization and experience that has formed this “I” and is somehow attached. Memory is part of the “I”.
Then there also seems to be an entity, an awareness watching over body and thought calling itself “I”. Searching for it, trying to get a handle on it, I do not get anywhere. It is like looking at a mirror reflected in a mirror: “I” get lost in the image. Or like trying to hold a wet soap bar: keeps slipping away.

[JonathanR]

Hello Aguila

. Thank you very much for taking the time and energy to support me, Jon!
Sorry for the delay: just found the notifications in the spam filter, so that should be solved now.

You're very welcome. Spam filters can be a bit of a menace sometimes. Glad you found it after all.

.

This body people call “Aguila” is associated with “I”. It has needs and sensations that “I” identify with. There are also thoughts, related to the brain function of this body, that also somehow are part of “I”. There is a history of education, socialization and experience that has formed this “I” and is somehow attached. Memory is part of the “I”.
Then there also seems to be an entity, an awareness watching over body and thought calling itself “I”. Searching for it, trying to get a handle on it, I do not get anywhere. It is like looking at a mirror reflected in a mirror: “I” get lost in the image. Or like trying to hold a wet soap bar: keeps slipping away.

What a full and comprehensive answer! That's great. Thank you.

You have highlighted "the body," "thoughts", what might be called "culture",. "memory" and "awareness' .

These are all common candidates for investigation. So where shall we start? In many ways it's best to start exactly where the most "I"ish identification crops up.

We could start with "the body" because you mentioned this first but we should come back to "awareness" too at some point.

I will give you a couple of exercises:to try...

The words on this screen are seen and conventionally is is assumed that it is "eyes" that are "the body" that is "me" that is doing the seeing. Let's investigate this.

Right here and now notice what is doing the seeing. What is the actual experience like?

Are "eyes seeing'? Is it an experience of "a body doing seeing" Is seeing just happening?

Let me know. Also notice if any thoughts pop up during the exercise?.


The other exercise is similar but involves hearing instead.

Notice whatever is heard right now. This could be a combination of sounds. It doesn't matter, loud of quiet noises they are all fine.

Now , what is the immediate experience like? Are there "ears doing hearing"? Is there a "body hearing'. Is there only hearing?

Once again, thoughts may or may not appear too. The main thing is to notice the hearing but if thoughts appear too that's fine and let me know?

See how you get in with those.

All the best

Jon

[Aguila]

You have highlighted "the body," "thoughts", what might be called "culture",. "memory" and "awareness' .

These are all common candidates for investigation. So where shall we start? In many ways it's best to start exactly where the most "I"ish identification crops up.

We could start with "the body" because you mentioned this first but we should come back to "awareness" too at some point.

Hard for me to say which is most “I”ish, I’d almost say it belongs together, altogether it makes an “I”. I am not sure I would call it an “I” if part of that is missing.

I will give you a couple of exercises:to try...

The words on this screen are seen and conventionally is is assumed that it is "eyes" that are "the body" that is "me" that is doing the seeing. Let's investigate this.

Right here and now notice what is doing the seeing. What is the actual experience like?

Are "eyes seeing'? Is it an experience of "a body doing seeing" Is seeing just happening?

Let me know. Also notice if any thoughts pop up during the exercise?.

”what is doing the seeing”... Funny: Sounds like something/-one involved in an activity. I have the sudden image of someone/-thing reaching out through my eyes and actually grabbing the words and getting them back into… the skull? The brain?
Are “eyes seeing”? Well, they seem to be mediators, necessary tools, the entry point into the body for the sensation of seeing. Without eyes functioning properly (or closed), there would be no seeing. But there is more required for seeing to happen. (My) attention (or awareness?) needs to be there, otherwise the words are in front of me but seeing will not happen. I am wondering if “I” can decide to see (or e. g. close my eyes). But I guess than we are back to the question, who/what is doing (that decision making in this case). Not sure if I am digressing.
And I have the impulse to always put “I” and “me” in quotes, since it is the questionable object of study and I don’t know how to handle that. Feels weird. A bit like a cat chasing its tail.
It is like I am trying to dissect the process of seeing, starting with the seen object and following the route of the sensation to what would the origin of the activity of “seeing” - but I end up in a amorphous mass? Cloud? Void?

I could go on like that for a while but I am not sure that is the right direction?

Notice whatever is heard right now. This could be a combination of sounds. It doesn't matter, loud of quiet noises they are all fine.

Now , what is the immediate experience like? Are there "ears doing hearing"? Is there a "body hearing'. Is there only hearing?

Once again, thoughts may or may not appear too. The main thing is to notice the hearing but if thoughts appear too that's fine and let me know?

The fan of my PC is the first thing I notice. Somehow it feels stupid to ask “who or what is hearing”. Again ears seem to be mediators only (albeit necessary), but they do not “do” something, do not have an agency of their own. And my know-it-all brain tells me there are some more parts involved so the sound reaches the brain. Would I then say the brain does the hearing, which would be part of the body? From mere observation I cannot tell, cannot find anything performing the hearing. I cannot put my finger on an agent doing it.
Having said that, I realize the search again always ends in an area like a cloud somewhat bigger then my head and including it. I feel myself focused on that like a cat watching a mousehole waiting for the inhabitant to finally show up. Thinking “it MUST be there somehow???”.

[JonathanR]

I wonder if you've come across mention of what is sometimes referred to at LU as "direct experience" or sometimes, "actual experience"? It doesn't matter if you have or haven't come across this but I will be asking you to notice this, so I'd better explain...

What it is is the raw experience of life as it happens right now, without intellectualising or thinking about it much at all. At any moment life is happening and it's possible to notice this. When I asked you about seeing and hearing I was pointing to the immediate, or direct, or actual experience of seeing or hearing, in effect asking you to notice what the experience is really like, quite apart from theories about what is going in or what "causes" what. In the exercises I will set from time to time I will ask you to notice exactly what goes on, as far as you can.

You seem to have done that very well, plus you have added quite a lot of deliberation about the seeing and hearing. Is that a fair observation for me to make?.

. I have the impulse to always put “I” and “me” in quotes, since it is the questionable object of study and I don’t know how to handle that. Feels weird. A bit like a cat chasing its tail.

I know what you mean! That cat is very illusive.

. it's is like I am trying to dissect the process of seeing, starting with the seen object and following the route of the sensation to what would the origin of the activity of “seeing” - but I end up in a amorphous mass? Cloud? Void?

Ok. Well, that's ok but please have another go at some point. This time feel no obligation to dissect the process. Thoughts about it may appear, but , without trying very much at all, just notice the direct experience.

. From mere observation I cannot tell, cannot find anything performing the hearing. I cannot put my finger on an agent doing it.

That's how it looks to me too if I try this. The hearing happens alright. Interesting how it's "mere" observation. Stripped of all the stuff we are taught or are told, what else do we have to go on than mere observation?

. I feel myself focused on that like a cat watching a mousehole waiting for the inhabitant to finally show up. Thinking “it MUST be there somehow???”.

You do not have to do that for this inquiry and in fact I would recommend a slightly more relaxed approach. Apart from anything else it sounds rather tiring and there is no self :-)

J

[Aguila]

Thank you, Jon, for your explanation and your patience.
So I will focus on direct experience.

You seem to have done that very well, plus you have added quite a lot of deliberation about the seeing and hearing. Is that a fair observation for me to make?.

Yes.
I guess it is because I feel otherwise the answer would be too short: I cannot find anything beyond the actual seeing or hearing. Any further search ends up in some kind of thinking. Nothing to find beyond plain seeing and hearing. Just the sensations. Not sure how to elaborate on that. Am I missing something?

You do not have to do that for this inquiry and in fact I would recommend a slightly more relaxed approach. Apart from anything else it sounds rather tiring and there is no self :-)

Thank you, that helps. I probably need to remind me of this every once in a while.

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

. Thank you, Jon, for your explanation and your patience.
So I will focus on direct experience.

You're welcome. That's good. It is important.

. I feel otherwise the answer would be too short

I understand why you felt this, but not at all. Short answers are perfectly ok.

. I cannot find anything beyond the actual seeing or hearing. Any further search ends up in some kind of thinking.

Right.

. Nothing to find beyond plain seeing and hearing. Just the sensations. Not sure how to elaborate on that. Am I missing something?

No. This is good.

Alright. One or two questions.

Is it possible to prevent seeing from happening?

It's possible to cover eyes. It's possible to cover ears . Does this switch off seeing or hearing?

About thinking. Does thinking or thought cause seeing or hearing to happen? In answering this, don't be tempted to do it by thinking about it. Notice these sensations again as they are happening and check directly.

Simple answers are ok but tell me what's noticed..

Best wishes

[Aguila]

Good morning, Jon!
Thanks again for your clarifications, very helpful.

Alright. One or two questions.

Is it possible to prevent seeing from happening?

It's possible to cover eyes. It's possible to cover ears . Does this switch off seeing or hearing?

No, it certainly doesn't. Seeing and hearing nothing also is seeing and hearing, I find.

About thinking. Does thinking or thought cause seeing or hearing to happen? In answering this, don't be tempted to do it by thinking about it. Notice these sensations again as they are happening and check directly.

Absolutely not, thinking comes afterwords, if at all. The sensations are immediate

Simple answers are ok but tell me what's noticed..

I'll do my best to focus!

All the best

Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

. I'll do my best to focus!

You focus well already.

. No it certainly doesn't. Seeing and hearing nothing also is seeing and hearing, I find.

That seems true.

. Absolutely not, thinking comes afterwords, if at all. The sensations are immediate

That's how it looks to me as well

So would you say that thinking is something that is not the actual seeing or hearing but sometimes appears at the same time , like something extra , as it were added on?

Is it possible to create a thought? Take a look
Try to create a thought.

How about preventing thoughts from appearing? Is that possible? Try preventing a thought from appearing.

All the best

Jon

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,

So would you say that thinking is something that is not the actual seeing or hearing but sometimes appears at the same time , like something extra , as it were added on?

Yes. Most of the times there are thoughts popping up immediately, dealing with whatever was the content of hearing or seeing.

Is it possible to create a thought? Take a look
Try to create a thought.

I can somehow make myself think of a pink crocodile, imagine something. That is probably not what you mean?

How about preventing thoughts from appearing? Is that possible? Try preventing a thought from appearing.

Again I am not sure: you mean a certain thought? Or general thinking? I can to a certain extent distract myself by focusing on a task, topic or a sensation for example, and thus avoid “other thinking” for a short time. But normally thoughts are rather bombarding me. Especially if there is some emotional stuff going on they are really tenacious and certainly have a life of their own, it is like herding cats.

All the best

Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

. I can somehow make myself think of a pink crocodile, imagine something. That is probably not what you mean?

That's an interesting one and it will do. How do you know that you create the pink crocodile thought?

Check this out a few times.

In other words yes, it seems that someone creates the thought but in order for that thought to be created surely there must be an awareness of the idea before it becomes conscious?

At what point in the process does the idea first appear? Does it appear at the moment that there's awareness of creating it or immediately before? If slightly before, what is creating it?

. normally thoughts are rather bombarding me. Especially if there is some emotional stuff going on they are really tenacious and certainly have a life of their own, it is like herding cats.

Ha! Yes. Nice analogy.

Important. If thoughts cannot be prevented from appearing , is it possible to prevent the thought "I" or thoughts about "me", from appearing ?


All the best

Jon

[Aguila]

Hi Jon

That's an interesting one and it will do. How do you know that you create the pink crocodile thought?

Well, first there is the thought that I should imagine something weird (to distract myself), than a few ideas come to my mind and I pick the pink elephant. And just from the choice of words it is obvious that it is independent of “me”: the thought comes up and the ideas come up without “me” actively creating them.
Ummh. Also for the picking of the pink crocodile, the decision: there is the thought “that will do”. But the thought just seems to pop up, too.

In other words yes, it seems that someone creates the thought but in order for that thought to be created surely there must be an awareness of the idea before it becomes conscious?

I cannot wrap my head around that, I always struggle a bit with the terms “awareness” and “consciousness”. How can I relate to something before it becomes conscious? Then it would be unconscious so I do not know it is there. I know I should not be thinking about this but experiencing it. But no matter how hard I try I cannot get to the moment before the thought comes up.

At what point in the process does the idea first appear? Does it appear at the moment that there's awareness of creating it or immediately before? If slightly before, what is creating it?

.I have no idea. I cannot find anything, they seem to come out of nowhere, black box.

Important. If thoughts cannot be prevented from appearing , is it possible to prevent the thought "I" or thoughts about "me", from appearing ?

Those thoughts “behave” the same way all thoughts do. “I” can distract myself to a certain extent. But even this extremely short and fast initial idea of “I will distract myself from a thought about me”: sometimes it comes, sometimes it doesn’t, sometimes it comes and I do not follow through for whatever reason.
So I am back to your question, where in the process does an idea appear: I cannot go before the actual thought and look who/what is doing it. It is just there.
Am I making any sense at all?

Puzzled regards

Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

. I cannot wrap my head around that, I always struggle a bit with the terms “awareness” and “consciousness”. How can I relate to something before it becomes conscious? Then it would be unconscious so I do not know it is there. I know I should not be thinking about this but experiencing it. But no matter how hard I try I cannot get to the moment before the thought comes up.

I understand. But that seems interesting in its self. Yes, it seems impossible to get to the moment before the thought comes up. And then a thought appears. The interesting thing to notice is whether there is a self, creating that thought either immediately before it appears or the very moment that it appears?

Another question is, if there is control over creating or thinking thoughts, what is going on when the thought that appears is unpleasant? Surely a creator of thoughts ought to be able to create only pleasant thoughts?

. what is creating it?
.I have no idea. I cannot find anything, they seem to come out of nowhere, black box.

Yes. But come they do, somehow, full of ideas and commentary, worries, stories, and a lot of information about almost anything and everything. Do you find this?

And a favourite subject is the story of "me". In "the past". In "the future" . A picture of an unchanging fixed self, often imagined to be 'in a body' , looking out through portholes (eyes) , "separate" from an external universe. Maybe sitting in a control room somewhere "behind the scenes" , staring at monitors, pressing buttons, pulling levers and "controlling things. But is this actually the case? Is this what's going on?

. : I cannot go before the actual thought and look who/what is doing it. It is just there.
Am I making any sense at all?

Yes, this makes sense.

All the best

Jon

[Aguila]

Good evening, Jon!

I understand. But that seems interesting in its self. Yes, it seems impossible to get to the moment before the thought comes up. And then a thought appears. The interesting thing to notice is whether there is a self, creating that thought either immediately before it appears or the very moment that it appears?

I cannot find anything creating a thought.
Looking closer there is maybe a certain receptivity, a readiness to perceive the thought. Awareness?

Another question is, if there is control over creating or thinking thoughts, what is going on when the thought that appears is unpleasant? Surely a creator of thoughts ought to be able to create only pleasant thoughts?

Well, as I mentioned I find myself bombarded with thoughts that “I” certainly did not create. At least not on purpose? Oh boy, this is getting complicated. All right, tons of thoughts pop up on their own accord. Having said that: by concentrating and hard effort “I” seem to be able to introduce SOME pleasant thoughts for a certain period of time. I can decide to refocus. Coming back to your question: I know this is stupid but I still have the impression that “I” can to a very small extent with great effort create thoughts - but mostly they do not belong to “me” and therefore come as “they want”, pleasant or unpleasant.

Yes. But come they do, somehow, full of ideas and commentary, worries, stories, and a lot of information about almost anything and everything. Do you find this?

Oh YES! A tremendously busy, chatty, opinionated and prolific bunch they are!

And a favourite subject is the story of "me". In "the past". In "the future" . A picture of an unchanging fixed self, often imagined to be 'in a body' , looking out through portholes (eyes) , "separate" from an external universe. Maybe sitting in a control room somewhere "behind the scenes" , staring at monitors, pressing buttons, pulling levers and "controlling things. But is this actually the case? Is this what's going on?

Honestly: part of “me” still thinks this is the case and I should get better control of my thoughts (and my life) - the biggest part of “me” somehow seems to have given up, realizing that thoughts just come and go.

All the best

Aguila