Fetters

[Popokikanaka]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
When there is a taste or shift into non-conceptual consciousness, the body-mind self is, intuitively at first, and then experientially, seen through as completely conceptual and unreal and is no longer in the foreground.

What are you looking for at LU?
Partially an interest in finding other people interested in this and finding a guide with experience with the fetters ala Kevin Schanilec whose model I was recently introduced to and immediately felt a pull towards.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I am interested in going through the fetters to break the more subtle layers of separation. Because of my many years of meditation and seeking, there are subtle layers that I would like help seeing through. I am usually a DIY type of seeker, but I would like to try this model. I was inspired by listening to Kevin and reading Christiane Michelberger's book. I very much resonated with her story.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been at it for 30 years on and off and recently extremely on again. Lots of meditation and seeking. Starting with dzogchen, then neo advaita, and recently deeply drawn to Nisagadatta as transmitted through Samaneri Jayasāra.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[atmajnani]

Hi Popokikanata,

Nice to meet you and welcome to LU!
I am also using Kevin Schanilec's method for myself, but here at LU we just guide through fetters 1/2/3, also called seeing through the self-illusion, basic awakening, the gate, kenshó, etc., which is the experiential realization that the mental construct of a Self does not really exist. You mention that you want to to break through the more subtle layers of separation (fetters 6-10), but have you experienced the initial awakening? If so could you describe in detail how you FELT it and what changed in your life afterwords?

After clarification of these questions I might be your guide to see through fetters 1/2/3.

Please read the post "Read me First" in the The Gate Forum which contains all instructions how to navigate at LU and check the video link ( viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660) which explains how to use the quote function in your replies. One question, quoted, then the answer underneath not in Quotes. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Popokikanaka]

You mention that you want to to break through the more subtle layers of separation (fetters 6-10), but have you experienced the initial awakening? If so could you describe in detail how you FELT it and what changed in your life afterwords?

Hi Atmajnani

Thank you for responding to my post! Happy to connect with a fellow fetter method enthusiast.

So answering this question is a little bit of a head scratch to me because I am not sure exactly what LU is referring to. If it’s the knowing and experiencing no me, no doer or a separate person making anything happen or even experiencing anything really, then I would say I crossed that a while ago.

So to your question of how it feels? It just feels normal. I can’t really remember what to compare it to other than I remember that there was a lot more suffering and unquestioned identification at one time. I honestly don't know if it was gradual or if there was some aha final shift and how that felt. At this moment it doesn’t feel special, and I really don't think about it.

In trying to understand LU's view of this shift, I read through Christiane Michelberger’s 1st fetter experience, and it all checked out with a yes yes yes yes nodding nodding nodding.

But if you guys are talking about the shifts that Kevin outlines for gates 6 on, those have not dropped. For instance, the direct seeing-through of "somethings" in 6 as Kevin explained below.

"One of the most striking aspects of seeing through the illusion of perception was that formless sphere meditation, as the temporary setting aside of perception, "something-ness", consciousness and space, was no longer a meaningful practice.  I realized that since I no longer mentally created or believed in (for example) “space”, there was no longer a need or even opportunity to temporarily set it aside.  Instead, I could simply note that there is no such thing as “space” if I happened to notice."

This has the flavor of the discovery of no me, but it is something else entirely that definitely did not drop when the me-ness was seen through.

If you think checking on 123 makes sense, I am more than happy to do that. No stone left unturned. Thanks again!!

[atmajnani]

Hi Popokikanaka,

Thank you for your detailed reply.

Liberation Unleashed (LU) is specialized in guiding people through the Self-illusion (fetters 1/2/3), which seems you have already experienced a while ago as you said. I can send you the final 6 questions for you to answer and guides at LU give feedback. After the gate you have access to some additional resources and can join a smaller FB private group (Fetter-Free) that meets every Saturdays on zoom to inquiry the remaining fetters. However, most of those members are working on fetters 4/5 - Reactivity, which is overlooked in neo-advaita and other 'paths'. I'm almost done with fetters 4/5 and couldn't guide you in other subtler fetters (6-10).

I would suggest you to contact Christiane Michelberger and request private guidance for the advanced fetters, she can suggest you a fetters guide depending on where you are located.

Please let me know if you want to reply to LU's final 6 questions.

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Popokikanaka]

Hi Atmajnani,

I love that there is a Fetter-Free FB group in the world.

I would like to clarify about fetter 6. I was actually trying to start 4/5, but I spent a week trying to find any really juicy reactivity and just couldn't at the moment, so it just made sense to table that one until something shows up instead of trying to manufacture something to work on. I was happy to read that Kevin thought this was ok to do. 6 has been a big one for me forever. I was so grateful that Kevin found a pathway through that one. I have never really run into anything that provides a clear pathway, I always just assumed it would come when the I Am went but perhaps it's actually the other way around. Kevin is a gem.

On another note, did you know that Kevin has recently been interviewed by Angelo Dillulo on the fetters method. They have done 4/5 and 6 so far. I think they will be going through 8 soon.

https://youtu.be/eye33kD4uSI
https://youtu.be/fAROq9fe39I

Thanks for the Christiane suggestion. I would love to find a guide if possible.

Please let me know if you want to reply to LU's final 6 questions.

And yes, please send me the final 6 questions : )

Aloha for now!

[Popokikanaka]

Hi Atmajnani,

I love that there is a Fetter-Free FB group in the world.

I would like to clarify about fetter 6. I was actually trying to start 4/5, but I spent a week trying to find any really juicy reactivity and just couldn't at the moment, so it just made sense to table that one until something shows up instead of trying to manufacture something to work on. I was happy to read that Kevin thought this was ok to do. 6 has been a big one for me forever. I was so grateful that Kevin found a pathway through that one. I have never really run into anything that provides a clear pathway, I always just assumed it would come when the I Am went but perhaps it's actually the other way around. Kevin is a gem.

On another note, did you know that Kevin has recently been interviewed by Angelo Dillulo on the fetters method. They have done 4/5 and 6 so far. I think they will be going through 8 soon.

https://youtu.be/eye33kD4uSI
https://youtu.be/fAROq9fe39I

Thanks for the Christiane suggestion. I would love to find a guide if possible.

Please let me know if you want to reply to LU's final 6 questions.

And yes, please send me the final 6 questions : )

Aloha for now!

[atmajnani]

Hi Popokikanaka,

I love that there is a Fetter-Free FB group in the world.

I learned today there are more 10-fetters groups. Ask at perfectlyokay.org

I have seen Kevin's interviews, quite useful.

According to my guide and Christiane, it's more beneficial to experience the shift of fetters 4/5 before embarking in the inquiry of fetters 6 & 7. But each person is unique and awakening is not a linear process.

Here are the final 6 questions of LU. Please report to your (past) shift of seeing the self-ilusion:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it FEEL to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[atmajnani]

Hi Popokikanaka,

Please let me know if you want to reply to LU's final 6 questions.

Are you sending the replies to the 6 questions?

Aloha for now!
[/quote]

[Popokikanaka]

Hi Atmajnani,

Yes, just got super busy the last few days will try and get it in today, tomorrow at the latest. Thanks for checking it : )

[Popokikanaka]

Are you sending the replies to the 6 questions?

Here they are!

Here are the final 6 questions of LU. Please report to your (past) shift of seeing the self-ilusion:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of a separate self is, when it starts, and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

I could only talk in retrospect about when it starts and even then... In reality, there is no start it just appears. There may be triggers that cause more reactivity and a feeling of density, but it is shades of the same thing which can only be recognized when not identified with it. If I were pressed to analyze it, I would go with its body feeling and spacial positioning as subject/object with thoughts layered on top. In truth, I really don't know what it is, I only know the quality/feeling of it by comparing it to the quality of not it.

3) How does it FEEL to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Sometimes seeing this is painful if I go back into identifying with it as a self-judgment. Other times, when the identification drops it just fades into nothing so it doesn't feel anything to see it. Full disclosure, we did not start a dialogue since I have seen this for quite some time.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
I cannot remember since it was quite a while ago. I know I had been purposefully looking for no-self for a while through Buddhist practice before I had a direct clear seeing.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

All of the below questions feel to me like they are simply born of the same thing, with maybe a slight difference in storyline/feeling and perhaps intensity. In my experience, when the feeling of agency shows up, it's a kind of spontaneous unconscious and convincing belief/thought/feeling/position that "I" have intention, free will, choice, etc. When it is actually just a happening/feeling program that comes online. Again, my experience is this mechanism can only really be seen through when consciousness is not caught up in it. It happens so spontaneously at insane speed it's like a great magic trick.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

I don't know really. I could easily make some stuff but ultimately, the truth is I don't know.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

At the relative level, tons of stuff needs to get done to function, which can be seen as responsibilities. I have a fundamental sense to refrain from harming or intentionally telling lies, etc. which I supposed could be viewed as responsibility but it feels more like a natural given.

6) Anything to add?

Thanks for doing this. It's a wonderful service.

So grateful to Atmajnani for reaching out!

[atmajnani]

Hi Popokikanaka,

Thank you for your answers. I need to clarify some points.

Sometimes seeing this is painful if I go back into identifying with it as a self-judgment. Other times, when the identification drops it just fades into nothing so it doesn't feel anything to see it....when the feeling of agency shows up, it's a kind of spontaneous unconscious and convincing belief/thought/feeling/position that "I" have intention, free will, choice, etc.

It might be hard to remember what you felt when you positively saw there is no self if it happened a long time ago. But reading your replies above it seems that you still experience unconscious moments that you identify with a separate entity called Popokikanaka. Could you clarify this point a bit further?
Sometimes people have long or short peak-experiences where they see there is no self, but later they fall back in the illusion of identification with a self because the belief was not dissolved completely. When fetter 1 falls completely there is no way back and usually produces specific feelings/sensations. This is independent of other beliefs such as reactivity (desire & aversion) that remain in place after breaking fetters 1-3.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
At the relative level, tons of stuff needs to get done to function, which can be seen as responsibilities. I have a fundamental sense to refrain from harming or intentionally telling lies, etc. which I supposed could be viewed as responsibility but it feels more like a natural given.

And what are you responsible for at absolute level?


Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Popokikanaka]

Hi Atmajnai,

Could you clarify this point a bit further?

I was referring to where I am now and to what Kevin was talking about regarding the sense of a center perspective which still has an I am-ness identity to it. It's not the same as blind ego separate-self identity. In meditation, I can easily experience that deeper understanding and freedom and lack of center, but in daily functioning, there is still the subject-object perspective, especially visually, desire/aversion, etc., which can arise as a sense of judgment in the sense of "why is this still here?" kind of frustration and a "can we please just be done with this already?" When Kevin spoke of the feeling that there is still a center after fetter 1, especially with the subject-object aspect, I completely understood what he was talking about and was relieved to hear it articulated that way and especially to have a clear map laid out as to how to proceed. As long as that perspective persists, it still feels like duality and an I am-ness and incomplete, and that can cause a painful feeling that feels like a bittersweet longing at times and sometimes frustration like not getting a math equation frustration, is the best way I can describe it. This center feels like a baked-in perceptual habit that's impossible to see right unless it's in the spotlight. My perspective of it right now, is that feels very much like the pre-condition that the separate self is born out of. This center perspective has not been thoroughly seen through yet.

I am not sure that I fully understand what LU means by liberation, from my experience and understanding of fetter 1, it's an important step, but it's not complete liberation. If someone tried to convince me that the separate ego self was actually real, it would be like trying to believe in Santa again, however, just that, does not feel like complete liberation, it's definitely a relief, and an important step but not complete liberation. I don't feel completely cooked. Am I missing something?

And what are you responsible for at an absolute level?

At the absolute level, nothing. From the absolute perspective, it would be like feeling personally responsible for the characters in a movie. Yet here we seemingly are, both playing in the illusion like it was real while also knowing it's an illusion. So wonderfully strange.

Thank you so much for your questions. I don't often articulate these things and it's nice to get clarity in this way.

[atmajnani]

Hi Popokikanaka,

there is still the subject-object perspective, especially visually, desire/aversion, etc....As long as that perspective persists, it still feels like duality and an I am-ness and incomplete,... My perspective of it right now, is that feels very much like the pre-condition that the separate self is born out of. This center perspective has not been thoroughly seen through yet.

You are right, according to the Buddhist fetters model when we are born in a body we start being conditioned which creates the beliefs in our consciousness that we are an entity separate from everything else. These beliefs are developed one on top of the other and must be dis-constructed in reverse order, sort of speaking. First, the belief on a very subtle sense of self is developed (fetter 8), which you miss to point out, later the beliefs in a center of perception and perspective (fetters 7&6), then the beliefs that you have desire and aversion that reinforce your push and pull in life (fetters 4&5), and finally the denser beliefs of mental identification with a separate self that is the doer, decider, manager of your life (fetters 1/2/3).

You confirmed that you have seen fetters 1-3, but there is an expectation that seeing through the illusion of fetter 6 will end your seeking, your non-dual state or I am-ness, as you say. However, that desire is just a manifestation of fetters 4/5 that need to be dissolved and maybe then fetter 6 will fall on its own, as it happened with Christiane (or maybe not and you need to inquire, each person is unique). Only when you go beyond fetter 8 and all others below (1-8) then you will experience an absence of an 'I'. Don't forget that desire and aversion, wants and don't wants, reinforce quite strongly the belief in separation.

The founders at LU don't (or didn't) use the fetters model and the present guides are volunteers that used different approaches, not every guide is using the fetters model. What LU calls liberation is just a label that points to what other spiritual schools call the gate, the stream entry, kenshó, basic awakening, the dissolution of fetters 1/2/3. I hope I have clarified all your doubts.

I have to get feedback from other guides to pass you through 'the gate'. It may take a couple of days, be patient :-)

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[atmajnani]

Hi again,

Another guide has a question for you:
How is it going in your daily life when you are not replying to questions in this forum, not looking, but rather moving trough life? Does it still feel "I'm thinking", I'm choosing", "I'm working", "I'm living my life"?

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[atmajnani]

Hi Popokikanaka,

Are you there?
Could you reply to our last question to give you access to the unleashed forum and fetter-free group?

Warmly,
Atmajnani