LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That we are totally psychologically conditioned starting probably earlier than the age of 2 to be a separate self. This process is the "unfettering" of these beliefs.
What are you looking for at LU?
I was actually hoping to be a volunteer to learn to help others in this process. I awakened by reading Dr. Angelo Dilullo's book, "Awake: It's your turn". I have been working on the remaining fetters as outlined on Keven Schanilec's website. I'm also reading Christiane Michelberger's book to get help with understanding the remaining fetters and where I am in this process.
What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would actually like to go through the training required to become a guide so that I can help others. It is difficult to find teachers for those seeking to wake up. Many are no longer providing one on one help.
What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I began with reading Eckart Tolle's books. From there, I downloaded the Waking Up app by Sam Harris to learn to meditate. I read Angelo Dilullo's book which lead to my initial awakening. I didn't at all understand what had happened so I reached out to him and he lead me to Simply The Seen's website which started my work with Desire and Ill Will and introduced me to the fetters. I have continued with natural meditation and inquiry. I have also read numerous books by Adyashanti.
On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11
Waking Up
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vinceschubert
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Re: Waking Up
Hi Pam, vince here.
Let's start by you describing your waking experience.
vince
Let's start by you describing your waking experience.
vince
Re: Waking Up
Reply
Hi Vince,
On September 22, 2022 I was reading Angelo Dilullo’s book “Awake: It’s your turn”. I do not remember what part of the book I was in, but it had to have been more toward the end. I was standing in my living room when I saw a blackness drop down, followed by a flash of light. I don’t remember exactly what I thought about that, but I was filled with pure joy and love for everyone and everything. I was literally laughing, crying with joy, and dancing around my living room (glad no-one was home :-) ) It felt as if the entire weight of the world had been lifted.
For about 7 days, I honestly thought I had died, time had stopped, and I just thought I was walking around. I actually texted someone to see if I would get a response. Two or Three days after that initial experience, I had what I call The Dark Night of the Soul. I was able to let completely go of a lot of fear and emotions. I actually felt what Eckhart calls the “Pain Body” dissolve.
I contacted Angelo via his website, and we did an interview which is posted on his YouTube channel. I will put the link at the end.
I have no Zen or Buddhist background, so I had no further instruction to work with at this point except the fellow that had pointed me to Angelo via social media had also suggested I read Adyashanti. I began doing that thank goodness, because what I didn’t realize at the time was that more work needed to be done! I also reached back out to Angelo for advice on what to do next. He pointed me to Kevin Schanilec’s website and advised I start working on the 4th & 5th fetters. Reading Adya, sitting in the gap, meditation/inquiry, all these things have helped tremendously. I am beginning to work with the 6th fetter, which I do believe is starting to fall. I just purchased Christiane Michelberger’s book to also assist with the remaining fetters. Angelo’s YouTube channel also has a good playlist on non-duality that I am working through.
Thank you for responding!
Here is a link to the interview with Angelo: https://youtu.be/lh_E3Jo7fqE
Kind regards,
Pam
Hi Vince,
On September 22, 2022 I was reading Angelo Dilullo’s book “Awake: It’s your turn”. I do not remember what part of the book I was in, but it had to have been more toward the end. I was standing in my living room when I saw a blackness drop down, followed by a flash of light. I don’t remember exactly what I thought about that, but I was filled with pure joy and love for everyone and everything. I was literally laughing, crying with joy, and dancing around my living room (glad no-one was home :-) ) It felt as if the entire weight of the world had been lifted.
For about 7 days, I honestly thought I had died, time had stopped, and I just thought I was walking around. I actually texted someone to see if I would get a response. Two or Three days after that initial experience, I had what I call The Dark Night of the Soul. I was able to let completely go of a lot of fear and emotions. I actually felt what Eckhart calls the “Pain Body” dissolve.
I contacted Angelo via his website, and we did an interview which is posted on his YouTube channel. I will put the link at the end.
I have no Zen or Buddhist background, so I had no further instruction to work with at this point except the fellow that had pointed me to Angelo via social media had also suggested I read Adyashanti. I began doing that thank goodness, because what I didn’t realize at the time was that more work needed to be done! I also reached back out to Angelo for advice on what to do next. He pointed me to Kevin Schanilec’s website and advised I start working on the 4th & 5th fetters. Reading Adya, sitting in the gap, meditation/inquiry, all these things have helped tremendously. I am beginning to work with the 6th fetter, which I do believe is starting to fall. I just purchased Christiane Michelberger’s book to also assist with the remaining fetters. Angelo’s YouTube channel also has a good playlist on non-duality that I am working through.
Thank you for responding!
Here is a link to the interview with Angelo: https://youtu.be/lh_E3Jo7fqE
Kind regards,
Pam
-
vinceschubert
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Re: Waking Up
Good evening Pam, Thank you for your story. Did doubts turn up at any point since that day?
Describe decision, intention, free will, choice, control, & responsibility.
What makes things happen? How do they work? Just a few lines on each will suffice.
with love
vince
Describe decision, intention, free will, choice, control, & responsibility.
What makes things happen? How do they work? Just a few lines on each will suffice.
with love
vince
Re: Waking Up
Good Evening/Morning Vince -
Oh my goodness, many doubts. Many episodes of “I had it”, “I lost it”. I just kept with what Adya and Angelo said…. Reality is always here, those doubts are just thoughts. I can’t say that I have doubts now. If I feel a reaction, inquiry and sitting in the gap dissolves it.
Decision: That’s deep. We think we make decisions prior to awakening. In my personal experience, I was 100% convinced I was being mentally abused in my relationship. I had fear of abandonment, and my partner was very controlling. I was miserable. I could not make the decision to leave out of fear. After waking up, I no longer had the fear of abandonment. Upon standing my ground, the mental control tactics from my partner stopped. I think decisions are only reactions based on mental conditioning. Prior to awakening, there could be no “clear decision”, only reaction. In summary, decision is an illusion….
Intention: No intention - just working through the fetters. I was looking for help through this process, and one on one assistance was hard to find. I understand many are not interested in awakening at all, but for those seeking, I would love to help. Since retirement, I have been looking for a volunteer opportunity. My spouse kept pointing me to something along what I did career-wise, but I just kept saying when something comes along, I will know it. This is the 2nd time this site has been brought to my attention, so here I am.
Free Will: I can’t see that there is free will in my direct experience
Choice: I can’t see that there is choice in my direct experience
Control: No control in my direct experience
Responsibility: To love and accept
What makes things happen: I have no clue
How do they work: I would guess exactly as they are supposed to
Much love back, Pam
Oh my goodness, many doubts. Many episodes of “I had it”, “I lost it”. I just kept with what Adya and Angelo said…. Reality is always here, those doubts are just thoughts. I can’t say that I have doubts now. If I feel a reaction, inquiry and sitting in the gap dissolves it.
Decision: That’s deep. We think we make decisions prior to awakening. In my personal experience, I was 100% convinced I was being mentally abused in my relationship. I had fear of abandonment, and my partner was very controlling. I was miserable. I could not make the decision to leave out of fear. After waking up, I no longer had the fear of abandonment. Upon standing my ground, the mental control tactics from my partner stopped. I think decisions are only reactions based on mental conditioning. Prior to awakening, there could be no “clear decision”, only reaction. In summary, decision is an illusion….
Intention: No intention - just working through the fetters. I was looking for help through this process, and one on one assistance was hard to find. I understand many are not interested in awakening at all, but for those seeking, I would love to help. Since retirement, I have been looking for a volunteer opportunity. My spouse kept pointing me to something along what I did career-wise, but I just kept saying when something comes along, I will know it. This is the 2nd time this site has been brought to my attention, so here I am.
Free Will: I can’t see that there is free will in my direct experience
Choice: I can’t see that there is choice in my direct experience
Control: No control in my direct experience
Responsibility: To love and accept
What makes things happen: I have no clue
How do they work: I would guess exactly as they are supposed to
Much love back, Pam
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vinceschubert
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Re: Waking Up
Good evening Pam, still in 'finding out where you are at' mode. i like the answers you have given. All except the last one. i need more c.larification on that
Now this question requires answers from several perspectives.
First, I want you to answer it from what arises in mind. No editing. Just write what comes out.
Then I want you to consider it and answer it from logic that comes from your awake state.
Then finally I want you to do an exercise and answer it from current experiencing (memory of it)
Here is the question; you are listening to music. You are engrossed in it. Is it possible for there to be a listener at this time as well as the experience of sound?
Is it possible for there to be something listened to at this time?
After you have answered the first two, I want you to put some music on and get engrossed in it.
After a while, thoughts will slow and there will be moments when listening is all. When this happens I want you to ask who is listening. Watch what happens when you do this.
Then I want you to ask what is being listened to - and observe...
with love
vince
Tell me more about "supposed to". Where does it originate?How do they work: I would guess exactly as they are supposed to
Now this question requires answers from several perspectives.
First, I want you to answer it from what arises in mind. No editing. Just write what comes out.
Then I want you to consider it and answer it from logic that comes from your awake state.
Then finally I want you to do an exercise and answer it from current experiencing (memory of it)
Here is the question; you are listening to music. You are engrossed in it. Is it possible for there to be a listener at this time as well as the experience of sound?
Is it possible for there to be something listened to at this time?
After you have answered the first two, I want you to put some music on and get engrossed in it.
After a while, thoughts will slow and there will be moments when listening is all. When this happens I want you to ask who is listening. Watch what happens when you do this.
Then I want you to ask what is being listened to - and observe...
with love
vince
Re: Waking Up
Thank you for your response Vince. I took periods throughout the day when I could be alone to work on this. Here is what I have….
Tell me more about "supposed to". Where does it originate?
Now this question requires answers from several perspectives.
First, I want you to answer it from what arises in mind. No editing. Just write what comes out.
Response: What immediately arises is I have no clue in the meaning or purpose of this vast Cosmos. I can only imagine that things are happening exactly as they should.
Then I want you to consider it and answer it from logic that comes from your awake state.
Response: Logically, we arrive as a physical body. Shortly after, the phycological conditioning begins. This is required for us to function on this earth. Conditioning comes from so many things, but until we wake up out of that conditioning, we operate in a conditioned, asleep state. We are reacting to and responding to thought after thought after thought. The physical body then runs its course and dies.
Then finally I want you to do an exercise and answer it from current experiencing (memory of it)
Here is the question; you are listening to music. You are engrossed in it. Is it possible for there to be a listener at this time as well as the experience of sound?
Response: Love this question because I have always loved music. As Dick Clark is quoted as saying, “Music is the soundtrack of our lives”. With that, and being intrigued with how I would respond to this question, I put on 2 songs while driving home from the Doctor that used to trigger reaction/emotion. One of many years ago, and one more recent. The more recent was just the hearing - no sense of a listener. Of course there is the memory of what the song used to represent to me, but no “listener” and no reaction at all.
Old song #2 was just the hearing (no listener) but with a heartfelt compassion deep down that I can’t explain for the “Pam” that used to be so affected by that song. The compassion actually brings tears to my eyes, not because of the sadness it used to mean, but because of compassion for the pain that once was, and the joy that now is.
Is it possible for there to be something listened to at this time?
Response: I feel like if I am typing such as now, the sounds may not be heard because my thoughts are getting the attention. If I stop the thought stream, the sounds are heard, but I am not “listening”.
After you have answered the first two, I want you to put some music on and get engrossed in it. After a while, thoughts will slow and there will be moments when listening is all. When this happens I want you to ask who is listening. Watch what happens when you do this.
Then I want you to ask what is being listened to - and observe...
Response: Okay, When I ask who is listening, I don’t get that there is a listener. There is only the song/sound.
When I asked what is being listened to and observed, I felt vibrations or tingling sensations going through my body. I could feel my heart beat pick up at times, and then slow back down. I no longer was paying attention to the words or the specific song that was playing, just observing the sensations.
Thank you for your time and consideration! These inquires were informative!!
Love, Pam
Tell me more about "supposed to". Where does it originate?
Now this question requires answers from several perspectives.
First, I want you to answer it from what arises in mind. No editing. Just write what comes out.
Response: What immediately arises is I have no clue in the meaning or purpose of this vast Cosmos. I can only imagine that things are happening exactly as they should.
Then I want you to consider it and answer it from logic that comes from your awake state.
Response: Logically, we arrive as a physical body. Shortly after, the phycological conditioning begins. This is required for us to function on this earth. Conditioning comes from so many things, but until we wake up out of that conditioning, we operate in a conditioned, asleep state. We are reacting to and responding to thought after thought after thought. The physical body then runs its course and dies.
Then finally I want you to do an exercise and answer it from current experiencing (memory of it)
Here is the question; you are listening to music. You are engrossed in it. Is it possible for there to be a listener at this time as well as the experience of sound?
Response: Love this question because I have always loved music. As Dick Clark is quoted as saying, “Music is the soundtrack of our lives”. With that, and being intrigued with how I would respond to this question, I put on 2 songs while driving home from the Doctor that used to trigger reaction/emotion. One of many years ago, and one more recent. The more recent was just the hearing - no sense of a listener. Of course there is the memory of what the song used to represent to me, but no “listener” and no reaction at all.
Old song #2 was just the hearing (no listener) but with a heartfelt compassion deep down that I can’t explain for the “Pam” that used to be so affected by that song. The compassion actually brings tears to my eyes, not because of the sadness it used to mean, but because of compassion for the pain that once was, and the joy that now is.
Is it possible for there to be something listened to at this time?
Response: I feel like if I am typing such as now, the sounds may not be heard because my thoughts are getting the attention. If I stop the thought stream, the sounds are heard, but I am not “listening”.
After you have answered the first two, I want you to put some music on and get engrossed in it. After a while, thoughts will slow and there will be moments when listening is all. When this happens I want you to ask who is listening. Watch what happens when you do this.
Then I want you to ask what is being listened to - and observe...
Response: Okay, When I ask who is listening, I don’t get that there is a listener. There is only the song/sound.
When I asked what is being listened to and observed, I felt vibrations or tingling sensations going through my body. I could feel my heart beat pick up at times, and then slow back down. I no longer was paying attention to the words or the specific song that was playing, just observing the sensations.
Thank you for your time and consideration! These inquires were informative!!
Love, Pam
-
vinceschubert
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- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:02 am
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Re: Waking Up
Good evening Pam,
Ok, I'm going to submit our thread to other guides to see if I have missed anything. (Oh, and check your Private Messages - above the search up top)
with love
vince
Excellent that you recognize this.I have no clue in the meaning or purpose of this vast Cosmos. I can only imagine that things are happening exactly as they should.
Yes, it the first fetter has fallen, then it it pretty obvious that the experiencing has to be interrupted in order to think about (create) a self.When I ask who is listening, I don’t get that there is a listener. There is only the song/sound.
This one is trickier. (it's actually probably fetter 8) When you asked about what was being listened to, you got lost in triggers. ..but no worries, we will get to that.When I asked what is being listened to and observed, I felt vibrations or tingling sensations going through my body. I could feel my heart beat pick up at times, and then slow back down. I no longer was paying attention to the words or the specific song that was playing, just observing the sensations.
Ok, I'm going to submit our thread to other guides to see if I have missed anything. (Oh, and check your Private Messages - above the search up top)
with love
vince
Re: Waking Up
Thank you Vince, this is all new to me, so am very excited to learn and help where I can. I have nothing planned for this afternoon, so will attend this meeting.
Kind regards,
Pam
Kind regards,
Pam
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vinceschubert
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Re: Waking Up
Hey Pam, one guide wants more clarity around Responsibility. Can you describe what it is? How it came into being? How it fits into an awake perspective?
love
vince
love
vince
Re: Waking Up
Hi Vince
There is no free will, what we think are our decisions, are not our decisions. We don't have control over anything. I have no clue, from an awake perspective how everything runs... what causes some people to wake up, and others have zero interest. So really, what is responsibility? I guess it would be the middle ground that the Buddha spoke of. It makes no sense to me to sit in a chair and say I have zero responsibility because there is no free will or control or decision making anyway. So what is responsibility? It's a word we use to navigate while we appear to be walking around on this earth. Although it's not mine because there is no "me", the awareness is the responsibility taking action of itself. Hope that makes since :-)
Warmest regards,
Pam
There is no free will, what we think are our decisions, are not our decisions. We don't have control over anything. I have no clue, from an awake perspective how everything runs... what causes some people to wake up, and others have zero interest. So really, what is responsibility? I guess it would be the middle ground that the Buddha spoke of. It makes no sense to me to sit in a chair and say I have zero responsibility because there is no free will or control or decision making anyway. So what is responsibility? It's a word we use to navigate while we appear to be walking around on this earth. Although it's not mine because there is no "me", the awareness is the responsibility taking action of itself. Hope that makes since :-)
Warmest regards,
Pam
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vinceschubert
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- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:02 am
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Re: Waking Up
Good evening Pam,
Can you find something called responsibility?
What kind of existence does it have?
The dictionary uses the word DUTY to describe it. What do you think of that?
love
vince
Hmm, it's still a little bit muddy.So what is responsibility? It's a word we use
Can you find something called responsibility?
What kind of existence does it have?
The dictionary uses the word DUTY to describe it. What do you think of that?
love
vince
Re: Waking Up
Okay, I looked up the word responsibility in the dictionary, and here is what I get:
“the state or fact of having a duty to deal with something or of having control over someone.”
Example: If I am the first to arrive on the seen of a car wreck, a person is in distress and needing assistance, I am going to stop and render aid. This could fall under “duty” in my opinion.
What doesn’t fit under the definition, is having control over someone. It is not our duty to attempt to change the opinions or beliefs of someone else - in fact this is not possible.
The Buddha and Jesus have good instruction on how we are to conduct ourselves in the world. As a truly awakened person, I don’t know how one could ignore these and not be miserable!
Metta ;-)
Pam
“the state or fact of having a duty to deal with something or of having control over someone.”
Example: If I am the first to arrive on the seen of a car wreck, a person is in distress and needing assistance, I am going to stop and render aid. This could fall under “duty” in my opinion.
What doesn’t fit under the definition, is having control over someone. It is not our duty to attempt to change the opinions or beliefs of someone else - in fact this is not possible.
The Buddha and Jesus have good instruction on how we are to conduct ourselves in the world. As a truly awakened person, I don’t know how one could ignore these and not be miserable!
Metta ;-)
Pam
Re: Waking Up
Okay, LOL, Scene in the car wreck scenario.... not seen. Apologies!
Re: Waking Up
In addition to the above, after some pondering, because I feel that was a very conceptual answer….
Our primary duty is to keep waking up so as to cause less pain and suffering for ourselves and everyone else. Do we even have a choice in that though? I say no.
Our primary duty is to keep waking up so as to cause less pain and suffering for ourselves and everyone else. Do we even have a choice in that though? I say no.
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