Liberation

[gmalen]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The brain has this self reflective / conscious capacity which people, through conditioning and perhaps natural evolutionary dynamics, have taken to be a false self identity, thus creating a felt sense of separation in experience. All energy, action, intention, feeling, thinking is a natural expression of life moving through a human being.

What are you looking for at LU?
Guidance as awakening continues to unfold in my experience. I experienced the first-shift or stream entry about a month ago and the mind is excited to keep inquiring, investigating, exploring the nature of reality.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Direct pointers, supportive conditioning for awakening to continue unfolding. I expect pointers that help direct where energy and attention can be best placed to continue awakening to truth. I expect simple, clear guidance.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
7 years of Buddhist practice in Mahayana / Theravada traditions. Last year, I went to Asia for 5 months and practiced intensely. A foot surgery in Dec, 2022 brought me home earlier than expected. Surrender to life started to happen as self-inquiry increased and the seeking energy realized its futility. The first shift/awakening happened about a month ago, and I'm enjoying the aftermath. Excited and fascinated by this process and the mind is eager to keep diving in, knowing a guide would be helpful.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Luchana]

Hi Gunar,

Luchana is here.
We can have a chat and see where it takes you.

I read your intro and this is what I would like to put a light on.

I experienced the first-shift or stream entry about a month ago and the mind is excited to keep inquiring, investigating, exploring the nature of reality.

Can you say something more about that shift?

What happened?

What's is different now compare prior the shift?

How the shift itself felt?

Sending love,
Luchana

[gmalen]

So more info on the shift:

After about two weeks of dwelling (for the first time ever) in a flowy surrender, with the investigation and recognition of no-self in regards to all phenomena including the seeking energy and unpleasant emotions, one morning, without a clear moment of change, I noticed a clear shift in perception. Let's call this the honeymoon that lasted 4-5 days. There was inner freedom, clear recognition of no separate self. There was this soft nondual perception accessible that the mind accessed 5 times a minute where it was difficult to identify an over here and over there, awareness felt more balanced within the whole field of seeing (the main sense door this was experienced with). Thoughts were a non-issue, not bothersome, not bound up in them, just thoughts flowing with no sense of burden or attachment or identification.

Next was a week of intense unpleasant emotions - existential dread, baselines anxiety, hopelessness, no energy, couch potato, depressive feelings.

Then came another week of the honeymoon phase with a bit less happiness/bliss and sense of inner freedom, and the soft nondual perception was still there but not accessed as much, and thoughts weren't a huge issue but more identification and subtle frustration / annoyance with them was bubbling up.

Then came another week of intense unpleasant emotions - I felt totally out of sorts, and started trying to understand what 'shift' may have occurred or didn't occur which brought more seeking energy, resistance, and doubt, confusion, frustration.

The habit of identification with thoughts returned to somewhat normal before the shift (a week ago). This last week I've been slowly sitting with and reading the gate-less gatecrashers book, and sensing that this habit of identification or getting 'lost' in I, me, my thoughts can still be here, it's normal after crashing through the gate and takes time to unwind. And now that I'm not fighting it or confused about it, I don't stay in the narratives as long and as soon as I jump out, I look at the "I, me, mine" that the thought was referring to and recognize its pointing to absolutely nothing, just a label/word in the thought world, and then life continues on.

This is where I'm at now. A bit confused by it all. Unsure. Content. Trying not to resist anything. Feeling like i've crashed through the gate, but wanting to keep explore and understand.

[Luchana]

Hi Gunar,

thank you for sharing your experience.

Yea, you had a wonderful experience and it lasted for a while and then it went.
This is what's happening with all experiences and states. But what we are looking here is not an experience and not a state. All these are subject to change, and the truth of there being no one separate with a free will and the abilities to control and manages life is always here when it is looked at.

Can you say is there a difference prior to shift?
What is different? What stays the same?
And how it is going in your daily when you are not looking or doing some kind of investigation, but rather moving trough life?

Does it still feel "I'm thinking", I'm choosing", "I'm working", "I'm living my life"?


Sending love,
Luchana

[gmalen]

Yes, I understand we are not looking for an experience or state.

Indeed, I do see this "truth of there being no one separate with a free will and the abilities to control and manages life is always here when it is looked at." The belief in a separate self has fallen away.

The paradox for me is that 'I' thoughts still occur without being seen in the light of truth, until I directly look at them and see the truth very clear.

Can you say is there a difference prior to shift?

These 'I' thoughts have returned to a similar amount as before the shift, but there is more space around them and they feel less important, real, significant. When I look at these thoughts, the "I" in them clearly refers to nothing.

What is different? What stays the same?

Different - more intense, raw emotions felt, generally more joy/ease/inner lightness/freedom, mindfulness/recognition of truth comes a bit more natural throughout day, more readily see thoughts as thoughts, feelings as feelings, not me, not mine.

And how it is going in your daily when you are not looking or doing some kind of investigation, but rather moving trough life?

More natural flow, less resistance. Without effort, more naturally recognize that there is no controller and life is just happening. 'I' thoughts occuring but causing 1/5 as much suffering/resistance as before. Otherwise, experience and myself is still quite ordinary and the same, just with an added space of recognizing that all this fluttering in the mind is not something that I need to identify with or play by.

Does it still feel "I'm thinking", I'm choosing", "I'm working", "I'm living my life"?

I guess it feels like that a bit, in that 'I' thoughts aren't necessarily recognized for what they are as they occur. But then awareness fills the gap and its clear that thinking, choosing, living my life, is all happening on its own accord.

----

So, this has been the paradox that has stumped the mind. It took me a while to see the mind being stumped as also a part of all this natural life movement. And, when intense unpleasant emotions come like despair and anxiety, it's a bit more difficult to see through, but the recognition of not-self is still there.

[Luchana]

Hi Gunar,

thank you for your replies.

The paradox for me is that 'I' thoughts still occur without being seen in the light of truth, until I directly look at them and see the truth very clear.

Can you look - Is there an expectation that thoughts will stop appearing once the illusion is seen trough?

Different - more intense, raw emotions felt, generally more joy/ease/inner lightness/freedom, mindfulness/recognition of truth comes a bit more natural throughout day, more readily see thoughts as thoughts, feelings as feelings, not me, not mine.

Beautiful.

So, this has been the paradox that has stumped the mind. It took me a while to see the mind being stumped as also a part of all this natural life movement. And, when intense unpleasant emotions come like despair and anxiety, it's a bit more difficult to see through, but the recognition of not-self is still there.

It is paradoxical yes..where there is a thought involved it is paradoxical, no?:-)

And yea. the intense unpleasant emotions wont go away.. but they may not be so persistent..
From what I can see in my experience - freedom is not from, freedom is WITH.
Of course it is natural for us as humans to desire more pleasant emotions and avoid no so pleasant ones, but real liberation means to embrace them all.
Also there are wounded places, emotional triggers which are different for each of us. These are not going away once the illusion is seen trough. These will need further looking and exploring the pattens and how conditioning is playing. Usually it is easier and in a way inevitable - when there is nothing on the way that, repressing them.
It is easier because when the strong emotions/sensations come there is nothing or nowhere to stick to.
However if there is a curiosity to explore that you will be able to see how it plays in your own direct experience. Seeing trough the illusion of a separate self is just the first, but crucial step so to speak.

How does this ring for you?


Sending love,
Luchana

[gmalen]

Can you look - Is there an expectation that thoughts will stop appearing once the illusion is seen trough?

No, I expect thoughts to continue, though there's confusion about the identification process that still occurs. I'm coming to understand that the habit of identification still occurs at this point, even with I, me, mine thoughts, but is seen through clearly when looked at directly.

How does this ring for you?

Yes, this rings so true. I understand this kind of emotion/shadow work is the path to deeper clarity/waking up. As challenging as it has been, I've really enjoyed these deeper emotions.

[Luchana]

Hi Ginar,

No, I expect thoughts to continue, though there's confusion about the identification process that still occurs. I'm coming to understand that the habit of identification still occurs at this point, even with I, me, mine thoughts, but is seen through clearly when looked at directly.

Nice :-) And yea, the identification may still occurs but it is easily catch so to speak. It may still happens when curtain triggers are pushed. But this is not because the self is back...and suddenly there is someone experiencing all of that.

Yes, this rings so true. I understand this kind of emotion/shadow work is the path to deeper clarity/waking up. As challenging as it has been, I've really enjoyed these deeper emotions.

Exactly. the unfolding has no end basically :-)


What we can do at this part of investigation is to give you so called final questions and to share your replies with the other fellow guides to see if I am missed anything. They may or may not have further questions for you. After that you'll have an access to the fb group and the other areas in the forum where you can explore more.

Is there something else which is not clear regarding the believe in a separate self?

Something you would like to look at?

Or you can say that the illusion of there being someone separate is seen trough?

Are you ready for the final questions?

Sending love,
Luchana

[gmalen]

Nice :-) And yea, the identification may still occurs but it is easily catch so to speak. It may still happens when curtain triggers are pushed. But this is not because the self is back...and suddenly there is someone experiencing all of that.

Okay, yes I understand this.

What we can do at this part of investigation is to give you so called final questions and to share your replies with the other fellow guides to see if I am missed anything. They may or may not have further questions for you. After that you'll have an access to the fb group and the other areas in the forum where you can explore more.

Awesome, let's do this (the final Q's). I'm also interested in becoming a guide.

Is there something else which is not clear regarding the believe in a separate self?
No, it's quite clear, life is good :)

Something you would like to look at?
I am interested in learning if y'all at LU speak of deeper stages of waking up/realization. In Theravada Buddhism for example, there are 4 stages of realization - the belief in a separate self falling away is the first stage. The 2nd and 3rd stages involve weakening and untangling desire and ill will (I consider this deeper shadow/emotional work). And the 4th and final stage involves dropping perceptual filters so that non-dual perception becomes the baseline. This is my rough description of the path.

Do y'all go further here than the first stage I spelled out? Do y'all generally see this kind of progression with yourself or others? Do you get people in the stream (1st stage) and just let the current take them forward?

Or you can say that the illusion of there being someone separate is seen trough?

The illusion has been seen through, clean cut.

Are you ready for the final questions?

I'm read for the final questions, hit me!

Thanks Luchana,
G

[Luchana]

Hi Gunar,

such a joy to be together with you yesterday!

How do you feel after the meeting?

I am interested in learning if y'all at LU speak of deeper stages of waking up/realization. In Theravada Buddhism for example, there are 4 stages of realization - the belief in a separate self falling away is the first stage. The 2nd and 3rd stages involve weakening and untangling desire and ill will (I consider this deeper shadow/emotional work). And the 4th and final stage involves dropping perceptual filters so that non-dual perception becomes the baseline. This is my rough description of the path.

Do y'all go further here than the first stage I spelled out? Do y'all generally see this kind of progression with yourself or others? Do you get people in the stream (1st stage) and just let the current take them forward?

Yes.. like we spoke on the meeting - these are useful concepts and like all other concept they may be useful as tool only. In the forum we are focused in seeing that there is no separate self and this is just the first, but the most important and crucial step. What I can share from my experience is that it seems that there is no end to that. Constantly unfolding, constantly changing and moving.
Patterns and conditioning are in a way easily looked at once when the central belief that there is someone in the body dropped.

What's next? mmm everything :-) Life full on.

Here are the questions, spent time with each one of them and reply from experience (not memory) of how you see things now.

1. Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2. Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3. How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4. What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5. Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6. Anything to add?

Sending love,
Luchana

[gmalen]

Luchana,

Thank you for your thoughts on the stages, I resonate. I enjoyed the meeting, 'twas powerful to feel in to my emotions/reactivity led by you and Lubo. I've been flowing nicely this week, feeling good.

1. Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

At least not that I can find! No, it is a label in thought that points to nothing real. It was never there - there was a laden assumption that there must be something that the thoughts involving "I" are pointing to. When looked for, nothing can be found.

2. Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self is the feeling that "I" can or must control, manage, or navigate life - that "I" am making decisions, following 'my' desires, and that all these thoughts/feelings/sensations(body) somehow collectively make up the entity of 'me'. It starts at a young age perhaps via conditioning from others and the evolution of the human brain. The brain's power to create consciousness as well as use language set the stage for a separate self. We never have the wit to challenge or simply look at what this separate self is; perhaps until suffering or life knocks us down and the mind gets the inkling that something about this separate self experience just doesn't feel right. 'There's gotta be another way to do this' it thinks.

3. How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

When seen right now, experience feels light, not so sticky, a natural surrender, less resistance, joy. Before the shift, the sense of a self was so heavy, everything being related to this feeling of not enough-ness and seeking something. Even pleasant feelings had a burn to them as the mind would see they were fleeting and the urge to grasp and hold on, or try to bypass this by avoiding or resisting pleasant experiences. The mind was always pushing and pulling on experience trying to get something or get somewhere. These last few days, experience can just flow through this body/mind. There are conscious glimpses throughout the day of there being no separate self, and still when unconscious mental chatter or activities/habits are happening, the feeling of a sense of self is breezy, ephemeral, no big deal.

4. What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Two weeks before the shift, the mind fully embraced the notion of 'no free will' and thus everything that occurred was just happening on its own accord. The mind said: "hey, let's do absolutely nothing and see how this life thing pans out." Funny enough, everything continues nearly the same and the mind goes, "oh, maybe I was really doing nothing after all". lol. And then the mind/sense of self thinks "Well If I'm not doing anything at all, then what am I, what is this?" Upon looking, all that is found is thoughts just bouncing around and reflecting off each other in the mind. "Well where do the thoughts come from?" the mind clearly isn't choosing them or an owner of them, they flow on their own volition, a flurry of spontaneity. Thus, everything is occurring spontaneously, absolutely nothing is exempt, and any idea of a separate self is seen as an illusory thought construct.

5. Describe decision & give examples from experience.

A decision is the mind/body responding to stimuli and producing an urge that stems with the values/conditioning of this human organism. The decision to continue writing this message to you occurs on its own - the brain/mind is weighing out the passion it has for this process/unfolding/engagement with you and the current feeling of tiredness. On its own, it makes the decision that it wants to continue writing now as it sees more value / enjoyment in writing this now compared to a secondary desire to take a nap (which will come after hehe). No "I" is weighing out these two options. Thoughts just float through making sense of experience as it comes.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Intentions arise naturally based on the environment and conditioning from past experiences. I understand they are pre-verbal but often become more clear as they manifest in consciousness through a thought. And they can have an 'I' in that thought like - "I want/intend to nap after writing this" but the 'I' is not a real thing or the one coming up with the intention. More so a habit of language at this point.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

I like to think of it as the mind having a will to act on its desires but it is not free or 'mine'. It's not free in that it can only desire what it desires. Whatever it wants most, it will pursue. There can be many conflicting desires but how these arise and which ones will win out are not chosen by anyone/anything.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Quite similar / intermingled with the three above, I do not feel inclined to add more here. lol, wow, I just wrote that last sentence and thought, what a great example of choice! The mind processes information via its surroundings and wips out a 'choices', quite rapidly actual. All these small little choices about everything, arising quickly as the mind navigates the moment.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

Control is an illusion that comes with the package of a separate self. It can feel like 'I' am making decisions and thus controlling how this moment plays out, but the decisions and even the felt sense of control all occur without any agency or control. So the whole thing is flipped on its head. lol.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

Interesting question, hmmm... I guess I don't know right now. Things are just happening without a clear source/origin/cause.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

This body/mind is in a way responsible for its actions in that it will reap their consequences/benefits. Just as before the shift, the mind/body wouldn't want to hurt anyone out of empathy and out of a desire to be free and not punished or confined. And vise versa as with wholesome deeds. So the mind/body still feels responsible in a conventional sense. Otherwise, there's not an "I" that is responsible for carrying forth good deeds and avoiding bad ones. The body/mind keeps its good mojo going, no 'me' that is responsible for maintaining or stopping it, it's impossible.

6. Anything to add?

If you'd like further depth anywhere here or have feedback to help see things more clearly, please ask/share!! Much love to this community. I think I mentioned to Ilona that, although I did not use this platform leading up the shift, I found it afterwards and felt it pointed most directly to the truths that caused the shift for me. This kind of one-on-one guiding and it being free of cost are important aspects of it for me. This month after the shift has been simple/subtle yet so profound. May we share it with all those who seek freedom!

Love,
Gunnar

[Luchana]

Hi Gunar,

thank you for your lovely replies and for you kind words. I am happy to read you feel good and flowing after the meeting :-) It is the same here.

I will share your replies with the other fellow guides and I will come back here soon.

If you'd like further depth anywhere here or have feedback to help see things more clearly, please ask/share!! Much love to this community. I think I mentioned to Ilona that, although I did not use this platform leading up the shift, I found it afterwards and felt it pointed most directly to the truths that caused the shift for me. This kind of one-on-one guiding and it being free of cost are important aspects of it for me. This month after the shift has been simple/subtle yet so profound. May we share it with all those who seek freedom!

Beautiful! If you are considering to become a guide in the forum - let me know :-)

Sending love,
Luchana

[gmalen]

Glad you are well, too :)

Sweet, look forward to hearing back from you and others.

Yes, I am interested in guiding.

Blessings,
Gunnar

[Luchana]

Hi Gunar,

the other guides have no other questions for you which means that you crash the gate so speak..but as you already know there is no gate and no one can crash it :-)

Maybe you recieved a message from the admin already? If not probably soon and the admin will contact you also in FB.
I will be waiting for you there in the Unleashed FB group.

As for the guiding - let me ask what exactly is the process and will let you know.


Sending much love,
Luchana

[gmalen]

Luchana,

beautiful! Thank you for the support, Luchana, it's been helpful running it through with you.

I've connected with nerina and the FB groups, she's started me off in the guiding direction.

All is well :)
Gunnar