Inquiry

[Sabine]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand by this that the self is a false identification with the body, mind and emotions. It appears to be real, but it is not truly real.

What are you looking for at LU?
I wish to awake from the false identification, to be free from the false identification.
I'm reading the book „The Gateless Gatecrashers“ and I am fascinated by the process each one goes through. I hope to enter the stream as well.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect guidance from someone who has experienced this shift him- or herself. Someone who can point to the path in case I go in the wrong direction or miss it somehow.
No specific expectations, but to be guided through questions.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
My journey started many years ago. I read different spiritual books. I followed a satsang-teacher for about 3 years, I attended some satsang-meetings and one retreat.
I know inquiry from Byron Katie's „The school for the Work“, but never practiced it regularly. I've never managed to meditate regularly.
Last year I started to attend online-satsang-meetings, where inquiry is part of the teaching.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[JonathanR]

Hello Sabine

I read your introduction, thank you. I am offering pointers to no self, in other words, to guide.

I would offer a series of questions. It would be for you to look into to these.

. I wish to awake from the false identification, to be free from the false identification.

Yes. We can work towards this. But here is a question .. is there an "I" that can be free from "I"?

Could it be that it is not just waking "from" but also waking "to" false identification?

Please let me know if you would like to start and we can get going ?

Warm regards

Jon

[Sabine]

Hello Jon

Thank you for guiding me and taking the time.

Yes. We can work towards this. But here is a question .. is there an "I" that can be free from "I"?

No, there is no „I“ that can be free from „I“. The false identification simply falls away, vanishes and there's no „I“ left.

Could it be that it is not just waking "from" but also waking "to" false identification?

Yes, it is also waking to (being aware, seeing through) false identification.


I would like to add something to my introduction. While reading „Gateless Gatecrashers“ there was a first glimpse of no-self. For two or three seconds the „I“ started to vanish. Then a thought came up: „What if I won't find myself anymore? What if I can't have myself back?“ Then fear came up. And the decision to back off and better keep the „I“ for now happened. („I“ decided to back off and to keep the „I“ for now.)

Please let me know if you would like to start and we can get going ?

Yes, please, I would like to start.

Kind regards

Sabine

[JonathanR]

Hi Sabine

. Thank you for guiding me and taking the time.

You're very welcome.

. While reading „Gateless Gatecrashers“ there was a first glimpse of no-self. For two or three seconds the „I“ started to vanish. Then a thought came up: „What if I won't find myself anymore? What if I can't have myself back?“ Then fear came up. And the decision to back off and better keep the „I“ for now happened. („I“ decided to back off and to keep the „I“ for now.)

Very interesting. Something very similar happened to me and judging by many conversations here at LU it seems to be common. It's almost as if there is something that must defend its position, finally, or imagine it's own extinction.

But is there, really? It may seem as though there's a fixed or separate 'self'. We will take a look at this.

Please could you tell me what is your current understanding of what "you" are? Feel free to write as much as you would like.

Regards

Jon

[Sabine]

Hi Jon

Please could you tell me what is your current understanding of what "you" are? Feel free to write as much as you would like.

My current understanding of „I“ is:
I am not this body, this is not even my body.
I am not my thoughts, these are not even my thoughts.
I am not my feelings, these are not even my feelings.
„I“ or „my“ is just a thought, a label. This label is then attached for example to the body, thoughts or feelings. The believe in the thought „I ...“ seems then to create the illusion of a separate self.

I could add my understanding of „who I really am“.
If I turn my attention inwards, there is an empty, peaceful space, that is always there. It is said that this is „who we really are“. And there's the awareness of all of that...

Regards

Sabine

[JonathanR]

Hi Sabine

. My current understanding of „I“ is:
I am not this body, this is not even my body.
I am not my thoughts, these are not even my thoughts.
I am not my feelings, these are not even my feelings.
„I“ or „my“ is just a thought, a label. This label is then attached for example to the body, thoughts or feelings. The believe in the thought „I ...“ seems then to create the illusion of a separate self.

I could add my understanding of „who I really am“.
If I turn my attention inwards, there is an empty, peaceful space, that is always there. It is said that this is „who we really are“. And there's the awareness of all of that...

Thank you.

. While reading „Gateless Gatecrashers“ there was a first glimpse of no-self. For two or three seconds the „I“ started to vanish. Then a thought came up: „What if I won't find myself anymore? What if I can't have myself back?“ Then fear came up. And the decision to back off and better keep the „I“ for now happened. („I“ decided to back off and to keep the „I“ for now.)

Let's look into this. Fear very often does appear as the reality of no self is glimpsed. It's fear that tends to bar the way, or to seem to bar the way. Fortunately this can usually be helped.

Firstly, do you want to look again so that no self is clearly seen? This is somewhat different from believing in the principle or theory of no self and perhaps more like a step into the unknown.

How fearful were you? If you think about looking again into no self does fear rise up? If it is not too extreme I can suggest one or two things that you could try and that may allow you to take that important look? If the fear is intense there are still things we can try.

Best wishes

Jon

[Sabine]

Hi Jon

Firstly, do you want to look again so that no self is clearly seen? This is somewhat different from believing in the principle or theory of no self and perhaps more like a step into the unknown.

Yes, I absolutely want to look again so that no self is clearly seen. I want to step into the unknown.

How fearful were you?

The fear wasn't so strong. I backed off because I didn't want it to grow.
Since that moment I have seen a few videos where exactly this situation is described. If one keeps going back or stays there, the fear should eventually diminish. I also thought that it would be better to deal with this fear with a guide.

If you think about looking again into no self does fear rise up?

No, thinking about it doesn't cause fear. I actually tried to get there again but didn't succeed.

If it is not too extreme I can suggest one or two things that you could try and that may allow you to take that important look?

Yes, please, I would like to do that.

If the fear is intense there are still things we can try.

Good to know. :)


Kind regards

Sabine

[JonathanR]

Thank you for your responses Sabine,

Very well.

You may indeed have come across the advice I will suggest but anyway, try it?...

Sit comfortably and when you will not be disturbed. When you are relaxed start to look where it was that you found yourself looking when you had been reading Gateless Gatecrashers. It must have been some pointers there that helped to allow a glimpse of no self? Was it like slipping towards the unknown?

No self is not really a thing or an experience, as such. Looking for no self can be frustrating. In fact it is often the opposite of this, looking to see if a self can be found that leads to a realisation.

There can be an intention to 'let go' and that may help but sometimes not. Sometimes it's a matter of not seeking to change anything at all and just noticing whatever is happening in the moment.

Anyway the idea is to relax in the "direction" of no self and notice if the fear comes up. When it does notice that it appears to try to protect, like a loyal guardian, trying to prevent harm. The reaction of fear is not necessary, as nobody will be hurt or harmed. In fact there already is no self. Thank the fear for it's loyal protection and love. Give it a hug and tell it that there's nothing to worry about. It can relax.

See if this helps. Let me know how it goes?

Thank you

Jon

[Sabine]

Hi Jon

Thank you for your suggestions.

Sit comfortably and when you will not be disturbed. When you are relaxed start to look where it was that you found yourself looking when you had been reading Gateless Gatecrashers. It must have been some pointers there that helped to allow a glimpse of no self?

Yes, while reading Gateless Gatecrashers I was looking in an effortless way, using the pointers that are mentioned in the dialogues.

Was it like slipping towards the unknown?

I'm not sure. Looking just revealed that there is no one here, and acutally no „I“ needed here. A thought came up like: „Yes, it's true. No one can be found here. And no „I“ is needed here.“ Then there was this glimpse of no self.

See if this helps. Let me know how it goes?

When I sit and look to see: Who breathes? Who senses? Who thinks? Who is looking?, no one can be found. It feels as if during this inquiry the sense of self gets weaker, and the sense of space gets clearer. No fear comes up since the „I“ has not really vanished.

Thank you for the hints, they are very valuable.

Kind regard

Sabine

[JonathanR]

Hello Sabine

. No fear comes up since the „I“ has not really vanished

That's true. Well, if fear does arrive at any point it can be met and thanked for it's loyal attempts to protect.

. Who breathes? Who senses? Who thinks? Who is looking?, no one can be found. It feels as if during this inquiry the sense of self gets weaker, and the sense of space gets clearer.

This is good .

Although it tends to be popular and widespread I would not ask these questions using the word "who" but instead try asking "what breathes", "what senses" ? and so on. "Who" already carries the assumption of some sort of entity or person or of "I". This may seem like a hair-splitting technical point of language but actually language or words have a great deal to do with beliefs, including belief in a separate self.

Perhaps try these slightly modified questions? Let me know how it goes?


On a day to day sort of basis, when not doing inquiry are you aware of moments when there is a strong or convincing sense of a "me" ? If there are any recurrent moments or situations in which it seems that there is a self struggling with circumstance or defined as an entity inside a body, separate from everything else? It may be very useful to take a look at these moments.


I'm glad my hints were valuable.

Thank you

Jon

[Sabine]

Hi Jon

Thank you again for guiding me, it's really appreciated.

Perhaps try these slightly modified questions? Let me know how it goes?

I did the inquiry asking „what breathes?“ „what...?“ I could not find anything or anyone breathing, sensing, thinking. The attention was somehow more drawn to the breathing and sensing itself than to a sense of space.

On a day to day sort of basis, when not doing inquiry are you aware of moments when there is a strong or convincing sense of a "me" ? If there are any recurrent moments or situations in which it seems that there is a self struggling with circumstance or defined as an entity inside a body, separate from everything else? It may be very useful to take a look at these moments.

It's quite difficult for me to answer this question. I have not so far noticed differences in how strong or convincing the sense of „me“ is. Whether I feel good or bad, stressed or relaxed, there is always the same strong sense of „I“.
Also, I don't have such a challenging everyday life right now, fortunately.


Kind regards

Sabine

[Sabine]

Hi Jon

I would like to add:

It may be very useful to take a look at these moments.

Maybe there's also resistance to take a look at these moments. What would it look like to take a look at these moments?

Kind regards

Sabine

[JonathanR]

Hi Sabine

. Thank you again for guiding me, it's really appreciated.

You are welcome. I'm very happy to do it.

. I did the inquiry asking „what breathes?“ „what...?“ I could not find anything or anyone breathing, sensing, thinking. The attention was somehow more drawn to the breathing and sensing itself than to a sense of space.

Great. Thank you.

. . I have not so far noticed differences in how strong or convincing the sense of „me“ is. Whether I feel good or bad, stressed or relaxed, there is always the same strong sense of „I“.

I just need to check with you. It is important that I do not misunderstand what you mean. When you say there is always the same strong sense of "I", is that in the conventionally understood sense of a separate self entity ? One that tends to have various problems?

. Maybe there's also resistance to take a look at these moments. What would it look like to take a look at these moments?

Simply a willingness to look at what you called the false identification. I can offer a few pointers.

There can often be resistance or even some fear about looking at this directly although this can be minimal or even nonexistent for some.

Here is an exercise that may or may not reveal something. It's to do with hearing.

At a time when you will not be disturbed sit quietly and simply become aware of what's heard. This could be very slight sounds such as breathing or radiators. It could be louder noises such as a dog barking or car going past. It doesn't matter. Notice any and all sounds.

After a while look at the experience of hearing. What is doing the hearing?

Conventionally it is said that "I hear" or "ears" , (that are "the body") are doing the hearing. Notice what's actually happening. Do "ears hear"? Is there a 'self" doing hearing? Is hearing just happening?

Let me know how this goes?

Jon

[Sabine]

Hello Jon

When you say there is always the same strong sense of "I", is that in the conventionally understood sense of a separate self entity ? One that tends to have various problems?

Yes, I meant the conventionally understood sense of a separate self entity.

Simply a willingness to look at what you called the false identification. I can offer a few pointers.

Yes, please, I am curious about these pointers.

Let me know how this goes?

I sat quietly and became aware of the sounds and noises in the environment or inside the body. There is no self „doing the hearing“. Ears don't do the hearing either. Hearing is not done by anyone or anything. Hearing is just happening.


Kind regards

Sabine

[JonathanR]

Hello Sabine

. Yes, I meant the conventionally understood sense of a separate self entity.

Thank you.

. I sat quietly and became aware of the sounds and noises in the environment or inside the body. There is no self „doing the hearing“. Ears don't do the hearing either. Hearing is not done by anyone or anything. Hearing is just happening.

Great. Did any thoughts appear whilst this was going on?

. I am curious about these pointers.

With this first exercise we have made a start. Actually I can only suggest effective pointers to the extent that you let me know of moments when false identification has been happening for you. In particular instances that seem frustrating or annoying or confusing Does that make sense?

At this stage we are not so interested in stating what we may believe to be true about no self as we are to noticing where the self illusion turns up.

Thank you

Jon