Seeing Through Illusion

[Valli]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the sense and belief that I am a separate, individual, personal self is an illusion. Believing in the illusion of a separate self causes unnecessary suffering and seeking. It is possible to see through and be liberated from this illusion.

What are you looking for at LU?
To clearly see through illusion and be fully and permanently liberated from the false belief in a separate self. I am looking for direct guidance from someone who has seen through the illusion and can skillfully guide me to see the same. I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to work directly with a Guide and I thank you in advance.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to be guided through a process of deep questioning, observation and inquiry. I hope to receive clear, direct guidance pointing to the true nature of the self, with no concessions. I expect to look deeply and honestly at my direct experience in the moment. I expect to drop all beliefs, stories, expectations, preconceptions, knowledge, and hopes about the true nature of the self and what liberation is.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been a "spiritual seeker" for many (many!) years with experience in Buddhist practices, Vipassana meditation, and various non-duality teachings. I have lived in Buddhist monasteries, sat many silent meditation retreats, attended Satsang and spiritual workshops, practiced self inquiry, read countless books, travelled to India, etc., etc., on and on, never ending seeking. I'm exhausted, frustrated and done. I've had many tastes and glimpses and experiences over the years but the self and seeking return. I am ready to let go of it all. I want to experience life liberated from the separate self.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Lubo]

Hi dear Valli.

Welcome to the forum.

I read your intro and resonate with it.
My name is Lubo and I can join you in this journey if you are OK?

I'm exhausted, frustrated and done. I've had many tastes and glimpses and experiences over the years but the self and seeking return. I am ready to let go of it all. I want to experience life liberated from the separate self.

I hear you. I understand very well what is your experience.
Now check at your Direct Experience
Let go of what precisely?
Liberated from what precisely?
What is this which you point with the words "separate self"?
What is this which is not liberated already?

Love
Lubo

[Valli]

Dear Lubo,

Thank you kindly for your reply and for agreeing to guide me. I am so grateful. My first thought when I saw your message is that everything I say will be wrong and not deep enough or spiritual enough and there is a longstanding fear that I will never get this.

Upon reading your questions, I experienced an intense release of emotion followed by silence. I will answer your questions as honestly as I can.

Let go of what precisely?

I want to let go of whatever is causing me to believe in an illusion. I want to let go of the illusion of a separate self that others have pointed to. I can’t figure out how to let go of something that doesn’t exist! There is an intense contraction in the heart, stomach, throat and the corresponding thought/belief is that there is something wrong, somewhere to go, something to understand, some kind of wonderful freedom just around the corner that I can't find.

Liberated from what precisely?

Liberated from the separate self and all the searching. The experience is a burning sensation in the pit of my stomach and a contraction around the heart. The mind interprets this as yearning or longing and feeling like something is missing and I must find the missing piece. Liberation from the belief that this is all a dream and I just can’t wake up. That I am trapped in the illusion and must keep searching to escape. Like this is all some cosmic joke that I’m not in on. Liberated from identification with mind and the relentless stream of thoughts.

What is this which you point with the words "separate self"?

Separate self in my experience is the body with its sensations and perceptions which appears to be a separate, individual entity; and a mind which creates an endless stream of thoughts narrated in my own voice, constantly referring to “I, me, mine”. My mind (or something) decides to believe certain thoughts which causes an incredible amount of suffering. There is a strong identification with this body/mind which seems to be an autonomous, individual, separate self that believes it makes decisions, causes things to happen, has responsibilities, lives in a world full of other separate selves, suffers, and has some free will.

What is this which is not liberated already?

Intellectually I'd say that if the separate self is an illusion, then it does not exist, so there must be nothing to be liberated from. The felt experience is there is a heavy weight and contraction in the body and mind. The thought is that I am trapped in a false belief and if this can be seen through, there will be an experience of liberation, freedom, and peace. Apart from a mind full of limiting thoughts and beliefs, I can’t find that which is not liberated already.

With love and thanks,
Valli

[Valli]

Dear Lubo,

Thank you kindly for your reply and for agreeing to guide me. I am so grateful. My first thought when I saw your message is that everything I say will be wrong and not deep enough or spiritual enough and there is a longstanding fear that I will never get this.

Upon reading your questions, I experienced an intense release of emotion followed by silence. I will answer your questions as honestly as I can.

Let go of what precisely?

I want to let go of whatever is causing me to believe in an illusion. I want to let go of the illusion of a separate self that others have pointed to. I can’t figure out how to let go of something that doesn’t exist! There is an intense contraction in the heart, stomach, throat and the corresponding thought/belief is that there is something wrong, somewhere to go, something to understand, some kind of wonderful freedom just around the corner that I can't find.

Liberated from what precisely?

Liberated from the separate self and all the searching. The experience is a burning sensation in the pit of my stomach and a contraction around the heart. The mind interprets this as yearning or longing and feeling like something is missing and I must find the missing piece. Liberation from the belief that this is all a dream and I just can’t wake up. That I am trapped in the illusion and must keep searching to escape. Like this is all some cosmic joke that I’m not in on. Liberated from identification with mind and the relentless stream of thoughts.

What is this which you point with the words "separate self"?

Separate self in my experience is the body with its sensations and perceptions which appears to be a separate, individual entity; and a mind which creates an endless stream of thoughts narrated in my own voice, constantly referring to “I, me, mine”. My mind (or something) decides to believe certain thoughts which causes an incredible amount of suffering. There is a strong identification with this body/mind which seems to be an autonomous, individual, separate self that believes it makes decisions, causes things to happen, has responsibilities, lives in a world full of other separate selves, suffers, and has some free will.

What is this which is not liberated already?

Intellectually I'd say that if the separate self is an illusion, then it does not exist, so there must be nothing to be liberated from. The felt experience is there is a heavy weight and contraction in the body and mind. The thought is that I am trapped in a false belief and if this can be seen through, there will be an experience of liberation, freedom, and peace. Apart from a mind full of limiting thoughts and beliefs, I can’t find that which is not liberated already.

With love and thanks,
Valli

[Lubo]

Hi dear Valli,
Thanks for the reply.

Thank you kindly for your reply and for agreeing to guide me. I am so grateful. My first thought when I saw your message is that everything I say will be wrong and not deep enough or spiritual enough and there is a longstanding fear that I will never get this.

You are more the welcome!
You got it already, you just forget ;)
There is no wrong answer. I invite you to see where illusion is clinking and then will help you to kick it.
So, just be honest with your experience and share with me where the trouble is?

I want to let go of the illusion of a separate self

How is it known that there is a separate self? Find what is that which is separate ?
What form, colour, shape, or smell is this which is separate?
Where exactly is it? How big is it ?
What is it made of?
Where exactly in the room and how big is your unicorn?


Notice also - separate from what? Investigate what is this
What is your Direct Experience of that from which you are separate from?

Intellectually I'd say that if the separate self is an illusion, then it does not exist, so there must be nothing to be liberated from

Notice the word "if" this is intelectual respond. Illusion is a mental structure. Liberation is to see that you are free already from the dreamed character.
There is nothing to be liberated - the answer is YES and NO! Nothing because there is freedom only.
But there is liberation of mental, imagined limitations, can you see this?

Let' see these limitation -programs
Say loudly - "I am free, I am not scary, ashamed or guilty at all."
Repeat it few time and notice what kind of resistance and limitation will appear. Share them with me.

Much love
Lubo

[Valli]

Dear Lubo,

Thank you so much for walking this journey with me!

How is it known that there is a separate self? Find what is that which is separate ?
What form, colour, shape, or smell is this which is separate?
Where exactly is it? How big is it ?
What is it made of?
Where exactly in the room and how big is your unicorn?

Wow! This is difficult. All I can say is I see with my eyes different people, animals, plants, objects, that appear to be separate from me and having their own separate experience that I cannot know or understand. There appear to be many selves living in many different realities. I can feel the sensations of my body, but I can’t feel the sensations of your body. I can see my hands, but I can’t see your hands.

What is your Direct Experience of that from which you are separate from?

My body only feels my sensations and only hears my thoughts. Other people appear to be separate selves with their own thoughts and feelings that are separate from mine. I cannot know what they are feeling or thinking, so I experience this as separate.

Say loudly - "I am free, I am not scary, ashamed or guilty at all.
Repeat it few time and notice what kind of resistance and limitation will appear. Share them with me.

When I said this out loud, first there was silence and peace. The mind went quiet. Then, contraction and clenching in the stomach, pain in the heart, fear and sadness. The thoughts were that I am not free but am trapped in a body that feels pain and discomfort and will die; and a mind with constant thoughts that I cannot stop. If there is no “self” then there is only the body and the mind. That is all that is in my experience - the sensations of the body and the thoughts of the mind, and a sense of awareness. There is a fear that without a self, life will have no meaning, it will just be a body with thoughts.

I don’t know who is believing these thoughts or who is deciding that a certain sensation is called “fear”. I feel like I want to be free of my body and mind and find a “self” that is eternal and peaceful.

Many thanks,
Valli

[Lubo]

Hi dear Valli
Look these ones:

All I can say is I see with my eyes different people

Does the body or eyes see? Notice the eyes in the mirror, do they know that they see?
Does the hand know that there is a hand which is moving?

If there is no “self” then there is only the body and the mind. That is all that is in my experience - the sensations of the body and the thoughts of the mind, and a sense of awareness. There is a fear that without a self, life will have no meaning, it will just be a body with thoughts.

Notice does the body know that exist?
Do the different bodies of people and animals know that they are different?
You cannot feel my sensations but can you experience snow which appears here?
Does it mean that there is someone which is a snow?
You cannot experience feelings which are here but does this mean that feelings belongs to someone which is born?

The thoughts were that I am not free but am trapped in a body

Are you agree that the truth is right here right now?
Notice the weather outside - the weather appears right now or there is something which is born?
Notice experience called body. The same question
Experience of a body appears right now or there is a body which is born?
Stay with this.

Love and freedom,
Lubo

[Valli]

Thank you, Lubo. It was very interesting to stay with these questions today.

Does the body or eyes see? Notice the eyes in the mirror, do they know that they see?

When I open my eyes, they perceive light, colour, shape, distance, but no, they do not know what they see. The mind tells a story about what the eyes see. The mind believes the stories it tells, and has learned, about what the eyes perceive.

Notice does the body know that exist?

When I experience the body, it does not seem to know it exists. It just is. But, the body does seem to have an intelligence. It seems to know it is alive and works by itself to stay alive (the heart beats, the lungs breath). It also communicates with the mind. It wants to stay warm and eat and sleep.

Do the different bodies of people and animals know that they are different?

No, my experience today when walking outside was that the body didn’t know it was separate or different. I felt a lot of love and connection for the other people and animals and objects.

Are you agree that the truth is right here right now?

Yes, I agree that the truth is right here now. I experience that sometimes, but I don't experience it all of the time. My mind says: “This can’t be the truth. There is more. You must find it. You must keep looking. You will probably never find it.” The body responds to these thoughts with sensations and makes them feel real and alive and true.

“Notice experience called body. The same question. Experience of a body appears right now or there is a body which is born?
Stay with this.

I can only know and experience the body that appears right now. It feels like everything else is a story that might not be true.

With thanks,
Valli

[Lubo]

Hi dear Valli,
I am impressed, you are doing very well.

let's investigate what is here beyond mind concepts :)
Let's try with this one:

My mind says: “This can’t be the truth. There is more. You must find it. You must keep looking. You will probably never find it.”

Reply to the mind "Hi my dear, do you know that the one you are talking to is made/invented by you?" notice the answer :)

I can only know and experience the body that appears right now.

Notice these words - experience the body or experience called body?
Is there a real body which appears here every moment or there is an experience called body?

Love,
Lubo

[Valli]

Dear Lubo,

Reply to the mind "Hi my dear, do you know that the one you are talking to is made/invented by you?" notice the answer :)

Wow, the mind didn’t know how to respond to this! There was silence and emptiness, deep relaxation and letting go in the body. I see that if my mind invented this separate self, it has also invented all the other separate selves. Today in the body there was back and forth between total relaxation and then sensations of intense anxiety/fear.

Is there a real body which appears here every moment or there is an experience called body?

This is tricky for me. I can only definitely say there is an experience that I call “body”. But it really seems like there is a real body which appears here. I can see it, feel it, hear it. It is always here and part of my experience. I don’t remember a time when the body wasn’t here, except maybe when I am dreaming.

The question that I keep trying to figure out is who is the one that is doing the looking here? Who is it that wants to know the truth? Who is it that has this feeling that the separate self might be an illusion? Who is deciding to inquire about all of this?

It is so helpful to have this daily guidance. Thank you very much!

In gratitude,
Valli

[Lubo]

Hi dear Valli,

Today in the body there was back and forth between total relaxation and then sensations of intense anxiety/fear.

Yes, this is evidence that you are on the right truck.

The mind believes that it is the one which takes care about life and want to continue keeps you in this illusion.
Notice right now that experience called human's life appears by itself AND IS HOLD WITH LOVE?

This is tricky for me. I can only definitely say there is an experience that I call “body”

Does the mind makes experience "body/human"?

Who is it that wants to know the truth? Who is it that has this feeling that the separate self might be an illusion? Who is deciding to inquire about all of this?

Mind says that there is an entity which should find the truth :) and the truth is that mind can or cannot make real entity/self ?

Love
Lubo

[Valli]

Dear Lubo,

Today I realised that when I get to a certain point in my spiritual practice, I find some problem and decide that whatever I am doing is not the right path. I stop and look for a new book, a new teacher, a new practice, a new form of meditation or inquiry. I see now that this is the mind finding ways to prevent me from seeing the truth. My mind always says I am on the wrong path and distracts me with something new. This keeps me forever searching and never finding. So sneaky! I will keep looking deeply until I see the truth.

Notice right now that experience called human's life appears by itself AND IS HOLD WITH LOVE?

Yes, I can see that the experience called life appears without a “me” managing anything. I see how my mind always keeps me thinking of the past and future and I rarely experience life appearing in this moment. It is always beautiful when I just experience life directly. I don’t know if I experience the love yet. I do notice that when I am present and see past the mind, the heart does relax and open a bit. Please tell me more about this!

“Does the mind makes experience "body/human"?

It seems the mind makes up the story about being a body/human. The mind tells a story about the sensations of the body and creates an experience, for example: a sensation in the stomach means fear. The experience is just neutral until the thoughts start.

Kindly,
Valli

[Lubo]

Hi dear Valli,

Today I realised that when I get to a certain point in my spiritual practice, I find some problem and decide that whatever I am doing is not the right path. I stop and look for a new book, a new teacher, a new practice, a new form of meditation or inquiry. I see now that this is the mind finding ways to prevent me from seeing the truth. My mind always says I am on the wrong path and distracts me with something new. This keeps me forever searching and never finding. So sneaky! I will keep looking deeply until I see the truth.

Wow, it is so wonderful that you see that pattern.
Notice, is the mind really smart and flexible or it is just looping machine?
Notice are there new thoughts or every day one and the same?
Are there new suggestions or one and the same every time?

Ask it: "Dear mind do you know what I am exactly? Where I am exactly?" - what is the answer?
Dear mind - is it true that there is an entity which produces these thoughts?

notice that you can cut the imaginary umbilical cord between the mind and the sensation called self/me?
How to do that- just see is there an entity IN/Behind that feeling, what is there?

Notice, the mind imagined that there is a Self, and this sensation is proof that you are there? And the mind speaks to that feeling and to the notion that there is a self there?
Notice that you know what mind speaks and also you know this feeling, you know that there is no entity in this feeling :)?
Just notice the narrative is just thoughts about thoughts...? Is there real authority there?
or does it look like a parrot ?

It seems the mind makes up the story about being a body/human

Say to mind: "My dear mind, there is just a conciseness here playing and of course I am not what is experienced
I can notice your story about "me character" also and if I not listen to you the character disappears. If there is such thing a self, it easily can be found . You are not guilty, you have been lied to and you defend something that does not exist, there is no entity here."
- and notice what is coming?

Love Lubo

[Valli]

Dear Lubo,

Thank you for all of the very helpful questions and pointers.

"Dear mind do you know what I am exactly? Where I am exactly?" - what is the answer?
Dear mind - is it true that there is an entity which produces these thoughts?

My mind can’t find me! My mind is getting loud and angry. It is screaming: “I am important, I am special, I have a purpose, without a self you will go crazy and life will be empty and meaningless.” The mind wants to feel purpose and meaning. It is creating something from nothing. I can see this is just a thought, just a story. I keep seeing glimpses of no self, but the illusion seems to persist. I wonder, am I really looking deeply or am I just thinking about all of this?

Just notice the narrative is just thoughts about thoughts...? Is there real authority there?
or does it look like a parrot ?

Yes, thoughts about thoughts about thoughts, on and on, it makes this “self” seem so complex. The mind is telling itself a story about itself and believing in itself and even arguing with itself. The body listens to the mind and creates sensations that make the story feel very real.

No, there is no authority here. Nobody is deciding what to think. Nobody is controlling the throughs. The thoughts just seem to appear.

“Say to mind: "My dear mind, there is just a conciseness here playing and of course I am not what is experienced
I can notice your story about "me character" also and if I not listen to you the character disappears. If there is such thing a self, it easily can be found . You are not guilty, you have been lied to and you defend something that does not exist, there is no entity here."
- and notice what is coming?

What came up was sadness. Sadness about all of the suffering and pain that believing in and defending the self has created for so many years. I feel stupid that I have heard this truth so many times, but am still trapped by the illusion. I also feel a letting go. Deeply held beliefs are coming up but they don’t have the same power.

I see that believing in a self was an innocent mistake, but I don’t understand why I can see and understand this truth, but not experience it fully yet. I’m feeling sadness and frustration and impatience. Letting it all come up.

With love and gratitude,
Valli

[Lubo]

Hi dear Valli,

You are doing very well!

I see that believing in a self was an innocent mistake, but I don’t understand why I can see and understand this truth, but not experience it fully yet. I’m feeling sadness and frustration and impatience. Letting it all come up.

Ok. look at this: Don' pay attention to the frustration. Let it be here, don't fight with it. BUT ;)
Notice the Idea that ego/self is owner of thoughts and has power to think?
But thoughts appears by themselves or there is a producer/user ? What is your Direct Experience?

Notice without a thinker/owner is this around real? :)

Love and freedom
Lubo