Round and Round "I" Go

[Leesi]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That LU is committed to helping people see that there is no separate self

What are you looking for at LU?
Guidance from going round in circles in my head,
“I” feel like I’ve found the gate and every time I step my toe through something pulls me back from fully going through, I understand intellectually that there is “no self” but feel like I’m clinging to something that is stopping me from fully embracing it in a “knowing” “aha!” Moment…

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Guidance in seeing through directly for myself - not just intellectually, I have moments, glimpses - for sure and then feel whisked back like “no no no come back here” i feel I am so close but the pull back is something I need help with, I am hoping a guided conversation will help me through

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been meditating on and off for around 4 years following what I first called a breakdown (later with hindsight I changed this to spiritual awakening) in the last 18 months I have been devouring every self help book I am drawn to in an effort to improve “my” life and that of my children - and more recently (8 months) ago I have investigated through books and online and feel drawn to “non duality” teachings - they feel right to me somehow (intellectually) and have helped me to widen my perspective with regards to feelings and emotions and not get swept away so easily - there is more of a space among them now and a feeling of sitting with and waiting for them to pass - I feel quite at peace and calm compared to where I was at 4 years ago, in the last 4 months or so my search for “self” has really ramped up like “right I’m going to do this and really finally find myself” and I just can’t! I have been frustrated with myself at not being able to figure it out, confusion is rife as to what information is real or not… this search is all encompassing any spare time I have and is what brought me to your website.. I have read Gatecrashers and here I am.. desperate.. please help

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[JonathanR]

Hi Leesi

Thanks for your introductory words. I could point for you, if you like?

May I ask you a couple of questions about what you have written?


Warm regards

Jon

[Leesi]

Hi Jon

Yes please
That would be great

Thank you in advance :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JonathanR]

Hi Leesi

Great! Ok, be Let's get started.

I will ask you questions. To start with , this will be for further information but very soon these will be pointers towards no self.

We will work together, me finding helpful questions and you looking into these. Our aim will be for you to notice, in away that is not just intellectual , that there is no self, never was and never will be. How does that sound?

. I step my toe through something pulls me back from fully going through, I understand intellectually that there is “no self” but feel like I’m clinging to something that is stopping me from fully embracing it in a “knowing” “aha!” Moment…

Is there an intuition as to what this something might be?

. I have been meditating on and off for around 4 years following what I first called a breakdown (later with hindsight I changed this to spiritual awakening) in the last 18 months

That's interesting. Can you describe what changed or what made this an awakening?

. in the last 4 months or so my search for “self” has really ramped up like “right I’m going to do this and really finally find myself” and I just can’t! I have been frustrated with myself at not being able to figure it out, confusion is rife as to what information is real or not…

This is as also very interesting. Your sense of urgency and focus is going to help. Together we will look into what is real or not.

I've already asked you enough for one exchange but here is another question;

What is your current understanding of what "you" are?


Thank you

Jon

[Leesi]

Hi Jon

We will work together, me finding helpful questions and you looking into these. Our aim will be for you to notice, in away that is not just intellectual , that there is no self, never was and never will be. How does that sound?

Sounds great thank you Jon,

Is there an intuition as to what this something might be?

Fear, Fear of something happening to my children,
Fear of dying but this is less extreme than it was,
Fear of the unknown in a nutshell

That's interesting. Can you describe what changed or what made this an awakening?

I recognised some time ago how terrified of the world I had become, I did not know who I was or where I was or how indeed I had got there, I was frozen in situe - overwhelmed by stress and the feeling that I was trapped with no sense of feeling or self - I was living a lie - to please other people, always trying to make other people happy, I inadvertently started a business - cake maker and decorator, it was successful, I hadn’t set out to do it it just kind of happened, as did having 6 children, one of whom is disabled following a traumatic birth… every minute of the day was spent avoiding spending any time with “myself”
Volunteering at school and always free to help others,
I was astranged from my mother who was an alcoholic from my teen years until recently we hadn’t spoken in 7 years,
I felt like I was stuck in fight or flight,
At this point I began meditating
I was diagnosed with too much spinal fluid on my brain and had a pressure monitor fitted to my brain
My marriage broke down
Divorce proceedings began
Covid hit (homeschooling 6 children as a single parent)
I had to close down cake business
My son had a horrific accident (is ok now)
Dealing with the Emotional fall out for kids from the separation and lockdowns
I spiralled - I was clinging by a thread - I couldn’t do this anymore..
I pledged to myself that I wouldn’t be beaten and continued meditating and delving into self help books, it slowly dawned on me that I was viewing myself as a victim and painting this story of woe is me - I was trying to be superwoman, to prove something to someone, anyone.. who? My mother perhaps? I realised I was terrified of becoming her… I realised that I was living a self fulfilling prophecy, the fear was feeding it… I kept reading, learning and looking at myself,
I made myself look at the fear when it came up - through meditation, I opened my eyes to my tendencies to try and control everything, when I got overwhelmed or frustrated or angry it was only because things hadn’t gone as I expected them too - the incident “whatever it was” had just happened, not because it was “good or bad” but because I was telling myself it was “good or bad”
I set out to try and improve my life and that of the Children, that was my goal but as I advanced this changed, I began to relax and feel better in myself, I noticed that it didn’t matter what I planned something always came up and took us in a different direction - and whatever “stress” was going on, it always passed…
I began to let go of trying to control it, two steps forward, three steps back, I learnt to be patient with myself
I met a new partner unexpectedly who supported my journey of self discovery, it was wonderful and then… no easy was to say this, his ex wife committed suicide and murdered his daughter - nothing felt real, I surrendered to god if there was one - a source - the universe - there had to be something because what the heck? I didn’t know what to do - and the world kept turning - it didn’t stop for anything… it made me question everything, and yet in all this pain was an overwhelming sense of empathy for all involved in this tragedy, there was love amongst the suffering, I could see the connections of everything - not see them so much as feel them,
I was at a stage of understanding that I could not control anything apart from myself, now I’m wondering if even that is true - do we even have control of ourselves? The world keeps turning and “reality” just keeps popping up as it likes - nothing to do with me, ironically this came with a sense of relief, I began letting go of ego in a big way I just didn’t see myself in the equation any more, I felt and commented to a friend that I felt as if I’d been reborn,
I had an overwhelming urge to call my mother who told me she had been in AA and for the first time in my life, told me she was an alcoholic, recovering alcoholic, today we are reconciled and I feel a real true understanding to her side of “our story”
I feel like all the “stress and suffering” that I went through - the breakdown I had previously thought I’d had, had in fact brought me to this point, questioning what I am because although I have whittled on somewhat here with the “story” of me I am none of these things.. these are all stories of my experiences, memories,
All in the past, gone.. why am I so attached to these stories though?
Why can I almost see the light at the end of the tunnel but not let go?

What is your current understanding of what "you" are?

An accumulation of my past experiences
On the surface - A person with a lot of responsibilities
Mom of 6
Daughter
Sister
Ex wife
On reflection during meditation- The space where all these stories play out, that’s what came up, maybe I have seen it already?
Maybe I want to believe I have and Im facing the wrong way haha! Maybe I just have to be patient and let everything happen on its own, continue to keep surrendering when I get pulled back into the play? But if there is no me in the first place who or what can surrender? Who is even typing this?


On second thoughts

What is your current understanding of what "you" are?

Confused 🫤

I do apologise for rambling on Jon - I went with the flow and this is what came up so I will send,
Hopefully it will give you an insight into where I am at and we can move forward from here :)

Thankyou for your time Jon and for reading

Leesi

[JonathanR]

Hi Leesi

Thank you very much for writing such a full and helpful reply. Wow! I see why you thought of this period as a breakdown but later as an awakening.

My overriding impression of what has been happening is positive. Not some of the very painful experiences but the gradual insights that were occurring throughout and things like taking up meditation too. Thanks for answering my questions so fully and it wasn't rambling.

. Fear, Fear of something happening to my children,
Fear of dying but this is less extreme than it was,
Fear of the unknown in a nutshell

This is very frank and direct and honest. This helps us both a lot.

In many ways it looks to me that you have already been facing unknowns and actually "letting go" has been happening at various times?

Fear is very very common so you're already in good company. There's likely something we can do to help this anyway.

When confronted with the prospect of taking a look directly at no self the mind tends to play the nuclear card by presenting an image of the worst possible disaster, as if this would be the consequence.

There was much more to your post that we could look at but let's stick with "fear" for now.

What is fear about really in this enquiry? There's an instinct to defend what appears to be in danger, or threatened. In rising up to protect, fear is expressing a kind of love, a loyalty. But nothing is going to be harmed or hurt. The irony about no self is that there never was a "self". Seeing that doesn't change what was wasn't "there" anyway.

So take a few quiet moments to talk with the feeling of fear. Thank it for it's protection and for doing so all these years. Give it a hug and let it know that nobody will be harmed by this simple recognition. It can relax . Take a few relaxed deep breaths.

See how that feels and let me know how it went?

Best wishes

Jon

[Leesi]

Hi Jon

Thankyou for your reply it felt reassuring to read and I appreciate it very much

In many ways it looks to me that you have already been facing unknowns and actually "letting go" has been happening at various times?

Yes you are right, i hadn’t actually thought of it that way but yes that’s true for sure

So take a few quiet moments to talk with the feeling of fear. Thank it for it's protection and for doing so all these years. Give it a hug and let it know that nobody will be harmed by this simple recognition. It can relax . Take a few relaxed deep breaths.

See how that feels and let me know how it went?

I did not want to leave you hanging as it’s been a little busy my end this weekend, I have done this but want to try again a little later when things quieten down some more…

There was some resistance noticed in my shoulders and hands,
I managed to relax into that resistance and talk to the feeling,
More relaxing followed and a felt lightening and letting go, when this happens sometimes there is a light popping sensation in the top of my spine into my neck followed by a feeling of peace (this happened today)

Again I will revisit this (hopefully) later this evening
Just wanted to check in

Thanks Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Leesi

. I have done this but want to try again a little later when things quieten down some more…

A good idea. You may need to find some quiet or undisturbed moments during your enquiry, not necessarily for a lot of meditation but just so that when you do come look at these questions you will be able to focus for a few moments, undisturbed.

Thanks for replying promptly. I will try to reply to you daily and if we can both do this things may shift along nicely. But whenever life is busy (and I know what raising two children is like let alone six!) Please take
Whatever time you need.

. There was some resistance noticed in my shoulders and hands,
I managed to relax into that resistance and talk to the feeling,
More relaxing followed and a felt lightening and letting go, when this happens sometimes there is a light popping sensation in the top of my spine into my neck followed by a feeling of peace (this happened today)

That's a good start. Noticing resistance is as important as noticing that there's none. Well done for talking to the feeling.

Yes, revisit this when you will not be disturbed for a while.

All best

Jon

[Leesi]

Hi Jon

Thanks for replying promptly. I will try to reply to you daily and if we can both do this things may shift along nicely. But whenever life is busy (and I know what raising two children is like let alone six!) Please take
Whatever time you need.

That’s great thankyou, yes I will endeavour to reply daily also
And at least check in if I am needing more time - thanks for your understanding

That's a good start. Noticing resistance is as important as noticing that there's none. Well done for talking to the feeling.

Yes, revisit this when you will not be disturbed for a while.

So I revisited this morning, firstly noticing all the ways I tried to distract myself from doing so haha!
After recognising that, I settled in, asking myself why am I scared of seeing that there is “no self” “no me”
What comes up are more questions rather than answers at this stage,
“If there is no me then what is the purpose of “this life”
I am part of a greater whole is the answer that arises - again I don’t know this directly - it’s just thought
(More) Thoughts that there must be a reason for this experience occur
I see that I am trying to mentally understand what is going on - perhaps another way of distracting myself from looking / seeing…?
… more thinking arragh lol!

I am proud of the progress I have made within myself spiritually-
If there is no me then there is nothing that can be proud -
I am seeing that maybe this is what I am clinging to -
Ego thinking that it is “I” that has made this progress “I” that is responsible for all the hard work I’ve done… “I” that wants to take the credit so to speak and if I let let myself see that there is no “I” or me then that shatters the illusion that “I” did anything..
A bitter sweet pill to swallow…
Pride? Hmm

I think I shall send this now it seems right to do so

Thank-you Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Leesi

. What comes up are more questions rather than answers at this stage,
“If there is no me then what is the purpose of “this life”
I am part of a greater whole is the answer that arises - again I don’t know this directly - it’s just thought
(More) Thoughts that there must be a reason for this experience occur
I see that I am trying to mentally understand what is going on - perhaps another way of distracting myself from looking / seeing…?
… more thinking arragh lol!

Arrr! Yes right. Good to notice. Thinking often does go into overdrive at this juncture. The distraction of questions and reasoning , can feel safer than just looking. This can go on and on sometimes if the underlying fear is not recognised.

If there is no me then what is the purpose of this life?

Maybe life? (But you more or less say this anyway).

Might experience actually precede reason?

. I am proud of the progress I have made within myself spiritually-
If there is no me then there is nothing that can be proud -
I am seeing that maybe this is what I am clinging to -

No need to forfeit anything. If progress has been made that's great. Real satisfaction can still be felt. It's just that 'self' was always an illusion. Pride may still appear it's just that you would not be crediting an illusory entity with all that achievement.

What do you think, of feel about what I have said?

All best

Jon

[Leesi]

Hi Jon

Might experience actually precede reason?

Well now you stumped me with this one :)

I’ve gone back and forth…
At first I’m sure that it can be either way round, experience precedes or logic precedes, we can think about how experience might be (predict) before we go forward with the experience, giving us a (somewhat) logical idea of how something may be (thoughts)
But then our predictions are only based on our past experiences up to that moment - so surely experience does precede reason - all reasoning comes after the effect so to speak…
We learn and become what we are through experience, and reason or analyse afterwards…
If I’m way of track here a pointer would be appreciated lol but this is where I am at with this right now

No need to forfeit anything. If progress has been made that's great. Real satisfaction can still be felt. It's just that 'self' was always an illusion. Pride may still appear it's just that you would not be crediting an illusory entity with all that achievement.

What do you think, of feel about what I have said?

Thankyou Jon, I do understand that for a long time I repressed my feelings and still learning that it is ok to feel and express negative emotions - realising as I type that I’m labelling pride as a negative emotion when it is in fact just an emotion and it’s ok to feel and be with,
right now I am feeling frustrated because each time I try to reply to you somebody comes in and takes me away from what I want to do (send my reply) so there is frustration about not being able to do what “I” want to do, which then leads to other feelings of guilt for thinking and being selfish… negative thought patterns
- I am able to logically talk myself back from these feelings (recognising them and allowing them to be) and am no where near as reactive to these feelings as I once was, and don’t feel like they are all encompassing anymore - there is space between thoughts and actions - quiet moments of nothingness - no action or thought - just watching or perceiving I guess, an experience of peace.

This is what I think when I contemplate what you have written, your words really are helpful to me in untangling some of this,

Thanks again Jon sending to you now
Before anyone else interrupts me ;)

Leesi

[JonathanR]

Hi Leesi

. I’ve gone back and forth…
At first I’m sure that it can be either way round, experience precedes or logic precedes, we can think about how experience might be (predict) before we go forward with the experience, giving us a (somewhat) logical idea of how something may be (thoughts)
But then our predictions are only based on our past experiences up to that moment - so surely experience does precede reason - all reasoning comes after the effect so to speak…
We learn and become what we are through experience, and reason or analyse afterwards…
If I’m way of track here a pointer would be appreciated lol but this is where I am at with this right now

No you're not off track at all. But you're quite right. Pointers might be useful.

Here is one :

The words on this screen are seen and conventionally it is often said that "I see" and it is assumed that it is "eyes" or "the body" that is "me" that is doing the seeing.

But what is going on here? Right here and now, what is the experience like? Is there an experience of "eyes seeing"? Or "a body seeing" ? Is seeing just happening?

There's another exercise that involves hearing. It's similar in many ways. Just sit quietly and notice any sounds. These could be barely audible ones right through to loud noises . It doesn't matter. Just notice whatever is heard.

What is the experience like? Is there an experience of "ears doing hearing" . Is there "me hearing" . Is it just hearing ?

. I do understand that for a long time I repressed my feelings and still learning that it is ok to feel and express negative emotions - realising as I type that I’m labelling pride as a negative emotion when it is in fact just an emotion and it’s ok to feel and be with,

Yes it is very good to acknowledge feelings that do appear. And not labeling them is helpful. And it is ok to feel them. This may not always be comfortable as you have pointed out. But Pride is an odd one anyway, sometimes were told its "good" and other times "bad". Somehow a quotation from William Blake popped up. "The pride of the peacock is the glory of God ".. Yet in some traditions the peacock is held to symbolise either greed or ignorance (cannot remember which).

Hope you get a few opportunities to try the exercises?

All the best

Jon

[Leesi]

Hi Jon

Hope your week is going well :)

But what is going on here? Right here and now, what is the experience like? Is there an experience of "eyes seeing"? Or "a body seeing" ? Is seeing just happening?

Seeing is just happening
There is no “experience” of it - there are sensations of squinting, focusing perhaps - reading feels instinctively personal to a “me”
The understanding and thinking of the collection of words presented but when I look enquiringly it is true that the Seeing is just happening. The interpretation of what is seen comes afterwards.

(Noticing how conditioned to accept a self we are!)

What is the experience like? Is there an experience of "ears doing hearing" . Is there "me hearing" . Is it just hearing ?

It’s just hearing!
Laughing to myself… “I” have no control over what is heard
“I” can’t stop “myself” from hearing and vice Versa “I” can’t hear something that “I” don’t hear - it just happens, it’s nothing that “i do”

Wow so much of this seems tied up in language
We are self identifying moment to moment each day in order to communicate- there is no escape from it and it’s so easy to get pulled into the story of the moment

Somehow a quotation from William Blake popped up. "The pride of the peacock is the glory of God

"

I (there it goes again lol) read the poem
Proverbs of Hell
Beautiful ~ thank-you for bringing that to my attention today

Leesi :)

[JonathanR]

Evening Leesi

. Hope your week is going well :)

It is as I read what you have written. Some great answers !

. reading feels instinctively personal to a “me”
The understanding and thinking of the collection of words presented but when I look enquiringly it is true that the Seeing is just happening. The interpretation of what is seen comes afterwards

Brilliant differentiation here between just seeing which happens naturally and the interpretations and thinking which comes afterwords. Is it clear that this thinking and interpretation is not the same thing as seeing and is not making seeing happen , but is some sort of extra that is added on?

. Its just hearing!
Laughing to myself… “I” have no control over what is heard
“I” can’t stop “myself” from hearing and vice Versa “I” can’t hear something that “I” don’t hear - it just happens, it’s nothing that “i do”

Yes! It is quite funny to suddenly notice this. Maybe it's true of all five of the classic senses, including smell, taste and touch ? It's worth checking those out in turn. Does a "self" make any of those happen?

In fact does a "self" "experience" any of them , or is the experience of each of the senses somehow just happening ?

Wow so much of this seems tied up in language
We are self identifying moment to moment each day in order to communicate- there is no escape from it and it’s so easy to get pulled into the story of the moment

Absolutely. It is so very much to do with language. Stories abound and the illusion of "self" is kept going through unexamined belief in these narratives about self.

You seem to be crashing through this quite fast!

How about this though... What makes things happen? Do you make anything happen?

Best wishes

Jon

[Leesi]

Thanks Jon

It is as I read what you have written. Some great answers !

Those pointers seemed to shine through clearly :)

Is it clear that this thinking and interpretation is not the same thing as seeing and is not making seeing happen , but is some sort of extra that is added on?

It is indeed very clear

Maybe it's true of all five of the classic senses, including smell, taste and touch ? It's worth checking those out in turn. Does a "self" make any of those happen?

I’m thinking about it and believe it to be so yes,
I am going to look at the other senses more directly going forward -
Having a cup of tea right now and yes there are sensations, the mug touching lips, the heat from the tea, warmth in the mouth..
I’m not making any of it happen - it just is, tasting is happening,
Touch is happening… interesting

You seem to be crashing through this quite fast!

Excitement arises haha

How about this though... What makes things happen? Do you make anything happen?

Oooh
Did I make myself pick up the tea mug and bring it to my lips?
What made me think I wanted tea and what put me into action of doing it…
Something to sleep on and investigate more tomorrow

Thank-you Jon

Leesi :)