What the heck am I

[RoloTomassi]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
It seems to "me", that I am so identified with thoughts that I can't see beyond the stories that are constructed by them. I get a sense that I am not experiencing life as it actually is because of always being "stuck" in the mind. I see that ALL these stories are attached to this "me" or "I". If that can disappear, I want to directly experience it.

What are you looking for at LU?
If I am not this "character" or these stories, I just really want to know and see first hand what I really am. I have always had the sense that I am something "beyond" all of "this", but I don't even know what that means or why that sense exists. I feel as though I am to the point where the mind is just starting to give up and lose power because it's realized more and more that it has no real power. I get a strange sense that something is about to drop. Seeking has slowed down a lot, but something still feels like it needs to drop. Anxiety and tension in the body has been high, but less fighting of that has been going on. There is just this surrender, not intentional, but simply from an understanding that the mind and constant thinking has NEVER fixed or done anything really. I see the answers will NEVER be found in the thoughts or concepts. I want to see beyond the concepts to what is actually true and there.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To be honest with you, I am not even sure anymore. At this point I just follow the "breadcrumbs" without much thinking. It seems whenever that happens, a bit more insight comes. I came across these books and this website through hearing about it in a video. Something resonated, for no reason, and I just went with it. Perhaps this is the next step on the journey.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Not very much, this all happened and bloomed very quickly over the past 4 years or so. I have some meditation experience but nothing super crazy, just about 20 minutes most mornings. I may go long periods without meditation. I didn't even realized I was a spiritual seeker until about a year ago. I had heard the term before but never dawned on me that I was seeking. I have dabbling with inquiry for about the same amount of time. I had some contact with inquiry over the past few years but didn't really know that is what I was engaging in. I was on a kind of standard self development journey at the time. Deeper inquiry has been over the past year or so, but restless tension, mind storms, and addictions kept me from really focusing on it. It has only been over the past couple months that I feel a true letting go through mental exhaustion. I have had some brief moments of enquiry where "something" opened up. I don't know how else to put it into words, but they were like little "ah ha" moments, felt very expansive, and all fear disappeared. I have gone through probably thousands of videos and reading books. I came across non-duality about a year and a half ago, and that is when things started to accelerate. I still don't know why, but I got gripped by it. It is around that time the bodily tensions and anxieties have actually increased. I see as conscious awareness broadens, it's like the suffering went through the roof. Constant tension and fear usually for no apparent reason. That has been going on for about a year as well. TONS of reactivity has dropped off during this process over the past few years. "My" life, as the character Mark, has improved in so many ways. Relationships in all ways are so much better. Yet still, there is a sense that something is still missing. strange really

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[AwayKen127]

Hi,

My name is Jeff and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.

Yet, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

[RoloTomassi]

Hi Jeff-
This sounds great. I can definitely post daily, if anything ever comes up I will make sure to post and let you know. Yes I have read the disclaimer and FAQ suggested.

How will life change?

I guess I think that life will change by becoming simpler. Or maybe that I will see that it is already simple. I notice at times of less mental turbulence, life just doesn't seem so complicated. Perhaps life can be navigated without so much internal drama.

How will you change?

I think that I could feel less restricted and more free. Free to express myself in ways that I probably always wanted to, but conditioning kept me from doing. Maybe become a more genuine person. I have a young 2 and a half year old son. I have this idea that I would set a better example for him as someone who is "free" from inner drama. Free to just be present. I don't want to download a bunch of drama into him. This has been a driving factor for me recently. I see how I have been running off of conditioning from my parents, family, society, etc. I want him to see an example of someone who is free from that.

What will be different?

I guest I think the world will somehow feel different. I have had a couple small insights during inquiry where things seemed "whole". Don't really know how to put it into words. There was still a sense of a "me", but I couldn't find the dividing line between this "me" and everything else. It was very calm and still. I think that maybe that is how things would always be experienced. There was a loss of tension I guess is the best way I can put it. I think it may be possible to experience life that way at all times. That I can face challenges logically, instead of getting caught in constant worry and anxiety about potential outcomes.

What is missing?

I think what is missing is the ability to see things as they are right now. I can literally see attention constantly getting stuck in mental stories about future outcomes, usually bad. It's like every time I settle into "the moment", some great tension arises and there is a strong magnetic pull back into the thoughts and stories. There is a sense that things are so simple, but I keep getting pulled into a story of complexity. It seems like the ability to see this simplicity is missing.

What would you like for me to call you?

You can call me Mark

What time zone are you in, please?

I am in Eastern Standard time zone in the US

Thank you for your time Jeff

[AwayKen127]

Hi, Mark. Nice to meet you.

I think that I could feel less restricted and more free. Free to express myself in ways that I probably always wanted to, but conditioning kept me from doing. Maybe become a more genuine person. I have a young 2 and a half year old son. I have this idea that I would set a better example for him as someone who is "free" from inner drama. Free to just be present. I don't want to download a bunch of drama into him. This has been a driving factor for me recently. I see how I have been running off of conditioning from my parents, family, society, etc. I want him to see an example of someone who is free from that.

That is really beautiful, and achievable.

I guest I think the world will somehow feel different. I have had a couple small insights during inquiry where things seemed "whole". Don't really know how to put it into words. There was still a sense of a "me", but I couldn't find the dividing line between this "me" and everything else. It was very calm and still. I think that maybe that is how things would always be experienced. There was a loss of tension I guess is the best way I can put it. I think it may be possible to experience life that way at all times. That I can face challenges logically, instead of getting caught in constant worry and anxiety about potential outcomes.

Expectations are always a stumbling block. "I think it may be possible to experience life that way at all times" is probably not realistic. A better attitude is to be absolutely honest about what is happening and to accept it exactly as it is. But that way of experiencing life can certainly become the norm and you will find your way back to it easily.

Let's start with this:
Coloured Socks

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

[RoloTomassi]

It is nice to meet you too Jeff!

Yes, the coloured socks makes sense. The way I feel sometimes is that I am being presented with an exotic fruit that I have never tasted before. It's right in front of me. Instead of just picking up the fruit and tasting it, I keep trying to "figure out" what it tastes like. Sometimes I feeling like I am reaching for the fruit, to finally take that bite, but then something stops that. Lately I have been thinking that maybe there is just a fear of what it might taste like. I don't know.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I think I am pretty clear on this. To be honest, I think the reason I am here chatting with you right now, is because over the past few months, it has been increasing clear that the mind has reached it's limit. It has been tasked with something it cannot do, and never could. It has become evident that so much behavior is being engaged in just to avoid whatever is happening right now at whatever cost. Whatever thought or sensation is necessary to divert attention seems to come up. I will say that distraction used to come from the most trivial thoughts. That doesn't seem to be the case anymore. It's like that mind game has been exposed somehow. Now, all the mind throws out are the most fearful things it can find. It usually centers around my son, finances and taking care of my family. It feels like teetering on the edge but continuously getting pulled back. There has even been a bit of an acceptance of that, seeing that no amount of mental gymnastics is going to "fix" things. It's very strange. I am experiencing a period that's quite paradoxical. I am experiencing times of intense fear and anxiety, usually for no obvious reason, yet oddly there is a peace behind it seeing there is really nothing I can do about it. Everything up till now has lead to this, including any insights that may or may not appear. I figured I may have reached a point where there is a need for someone else to keep me looking at just what is here, and not getting caught in the "mind stuff", even if the "mind stuff" is present. At this point I feel like I know absolutely nothing anymore, which is also somewhat liberating. I don't know what this world is or why it is here and the energy to keep seeking and trying to figure things out has died off greatly. I am exhausted to be honest. I watch my son sometimes and see how free he is. One minute smiling, the next crying and screaming, and the next laughing like crazy, all within a few minutes. He just goes with the flow and never has to question anything. I wish I could be like him LOL! One thing that does seem VERY obvious though, is that intense drive to fix, figure out, and change things, feels like it has been crushed and lost it's energy. It literally feels like a death. I see that "surrender" really has nothing to do with the mind or a strategy, it's when it starts to become very obvious that the strategies have not been working and probably never will. The mind just can't do it.

I hope that makes sense. I am very grateful for your help Jeff. Thank you.

[AwayKen127]

You're in a great place, Mark. Seeing that the mind can't solve the "problems" it creates. Seeing that your son is so free because he hasn't yet constructed the mind-prison.

Direct Experience

Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for awhile.  
Observe how the mind is dividing and labelling every thing into objects and is embellishing them with stories about what they are.  

Give it some time

Then, stop watching the objects as labelled objects. Just look at the seeing itself. Observe the pure process of seeing. This is direct experience (DE).

[RoloTomassi]

Thank you Jeff-

Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for awhile.
Observe how the mind is dividing and labelling every thing into objects and is embellishing them with stories about what they are.

I did this for a while last night and again this morning. When I do observation like this, I get a lot less of stories about what is being looked at, and much more narration about the exercise itself. A lot of thoughts like "just look, focus only on the visual field, simple looking, what is here without labels, etc." For me it's a lot more of a sense that there is something I am supposed to be "doing" with what is being seen. That being said, after a few minutes, it tends to calm a bit and seems to be more of just the direct experience. I even had the thought, "do I actually have to "do" anything just to see?", and that lead to a bit of a relaxation. This is also when I tend to notice much more detail in the things being looked at, without any forcing or trying. It kind of comes and goes. There seem to be brief moments of clarity, of just seeing, then there is a sense of a loss of resolution so to speak. Hard to put into words, feels like hypnosis. I am still looking at the same object, but I am just not really experiencing it directly. When that happens, I notice a subtle sense that instead of "seeing" the object that I am looking at, I am instead experiencing a sort of mental image or representation of it. Which seems silly since the object is literally right there, why the need for concept. Again, subtle, so difficult to put into words. I was looking at my hands for a while and there were times where the hands looked very high definition, then they go back to kind of just being the background and lower definition. Its almost like "pure seeing" is looking at a 4k TV, while when lost in concepts of the seen, its like looking at a 60 year old TV screen. Then there is the realization that this is how I have been perceiving life for decades, a very dull, low definition version of what is actually there. I would assume this also applies to all of the senses.

I will say this. Normally when I do these sorts of investigations, I feel quite a bit of tension. Again, that sense that something needs to be "done" along with the idea that something should be happening. Usually the thoughts that this is a waste of time and too simple. This time, I did not experience that. It felt much easier this time in a sense. Much more calm and inquisitive.

I will continue to do this.

[AwayKen127]

I really enjoyed reading your clear account, Mark. You noticed many things.

"do I actually have to "do" anything just to see?"

No, seeing just happens.

Its almost like "pure seeing" is looking at a 4k TV, while when lost in concepts of the seen, its like looking at a 60 year old TV screen. Then there is the realization that this is how I have been perceiving life for decades, a very dull, low definition version of what is actually there. I would assume this also applies to all of the senses.

That's exactly right. The first thing that happens when we see a scene is we divide it up into parts, notice this part or that, and recognize it. ALL of this is thought! Once something is recognized, it is labeled by comparing it to a memory, and then we stop paying attention what is actually seen and instead start relating to the concept. Of course, this feels like the 60 year old TV screen. We are no longer receiving the firehose stream of data, which is so rich, unexpected, and alive. What's worse, once labeled, an "object" is believed to persist in time. So the next time we see it, we don't even see it at all.

This whole project is about shedding these subtle beliefs and getting back to experience as it was when we were babies, before we learned any of this.

Let's go deeper into direct experience.

Holding an Object Exercise

This may take about 45 minutes. Sit, recline, or lie down with an object held between your hands. Close your eyes. Tune in to the high-pitched steady sound that is always present (which is called nada). When you hear this, shift attention to your hands. Without moving your hands, experience the sensation of holding the object, exactly as it appears to you in direct experience. Notice the "overlay" that you talked about--the imagined visual image of hands and object--but then let it go and discover what the sensation is without the overlay. What do you find?

[RoloTomassi]

Hi Jeff-

Ok, I just finished the Holding an Object exercise. I used a hand grip exercise device which is like a small somewhat dense rubber egg shaped object. I held it between both my hands. Tuning into the nada was easy, I have done that before and can find that quite quickly, especially in a quite room with eyes closed. That sound actually continued to grow in intensity and presence through the exercise, whether I was specifically focusing on it or not. This exercise seemed more "difficult" in the sense that I couldn't seem to "let go" of the overlays completely, and noticed them almost constantly. I see why you say 45 minutes, because it probably took almost 30 minutes alone just for me to start to notice the overlays "loosening". The overlays may go away, but very briefly. What did happen though was the overlays changed. In the beginning, they were very specific images mostly. Images of my hands, the object, their position, my body, and the relationships of everything in space. As time when on, the sensations "grew", not sure how else to explain it. Also, they began to merge. In other words, it wasn't my hand and a separate object, they become one. There was still overlays, though they changed. Instead of being specifically "hand", "object", or "hand holding object" images, they become almost like gross shapes. Again, hard to put into words. There was much less detail in the mental images. Also, at times location either felt different, or sometimes, more spread out. Also, sometimes attention would go back and forth between the sensations and the "nada". When this happened they would somewhat merge. Meaning I could not really distinguish the "difference" between the sound and the sensations. It was as if they were in the same space, made of the same "stuff", no way to draw a line between them, etc.

What do you find?

Again it feels difficult to answer this question as I still don't feel that the overlays completely go away. That being said, there were brief moments where all there was, was sensation. Whenever that is noticed, immediately overlays of some sort, either specific, or extremely abstract, seem to flood back in. I went the full 45 minutes. I will also note, there was extreme relaxation during this exercise. It was noticed that when the overlay images became more abstract and less defined, there was intense relaxation and I would even say enjoyment.

One practice that I have engaged in during periods over the past few years was focusing on the sensations of the "inner body" as Eckart Tolle has suggested. I would use it as a way to try to escape the mind storms. Most of the time it felt like a struggle, but whenever I would maintain that focus for an extended period, I would feel some very strong and pleasant relaxation. I would do this throughout the day, usually during work. Probably about 4 or 5 months ago, I had two distinct times when I did this, that I was so focused on the sensations, that the objects in the visual field we not separate from the body sensations. In the first instance, I was walking out of the bank and towards my car. I could no longer tell the difference between the visual image of my car, and the sensation of the body. It literally felt as though I was "feeling" the car. Or that the car and the sensations were the same thing. Very hard to explain in words. It only lasted for a few minutes, but it was extremely peaceful. The mind was seen chatting and explaining during the whole thing, but it's like it didn't matter at all. It felt at that moment that everything was made of the same "stuff". This exercise reminded me of that.

[AwayKen127]

Meaning I could not really distinguish the "difference" between the sound and the sensations. It was as if they were in the same space, made of the same "stuff", no way to draw a line between them, etc.

This is what is called "One Taste" in Buddhist writings. It shows that even labeling a sensation "sound" or "touch" is a thought, a mind overlay on the pure experience. It also shows how thoughts divide what is intrinsically undivided into "objects" which are separate from each other and from the "observer" (subject). I encourage you to continue this exercise (Holding an Object) daily if possible, or as much as you have time for. You can also open your eyes once the sensations have "grown" as you put it. In the visual scene, you will discover things as well.

Looking Straight Ahead Exercise
Sit comfortably, looking straight ahead. Describe what you see in direct experience, as much as possible without concepts. Then, without shifting your gaze, describe what you see in direct experience in the zone around dead center. Then without shifting your gaze, allow yourself to become aware of the whole room and describe what you see. Finally, without shifting your gaze, do you actually see an observer? Exactly where? How big is it? What color?

[RoloTomassi]

Sounds good! I will continue the exercise. I did some today as well. It was a bit easier this time in the sense that the sensations had less conceptual attachments so to speak. It felt more "spread out" I guess is the best I can put it. It seemed like the sensations were "smeared" over the visual field so to speak, when my eyes were opened.

Looking Straight Ahead Exercise
Sit comfortably, looking straight ahead. Describe what you see in direct experience, as much as possible without concepts. Then, without shifting your gaze, describe what you see in direct experience in the zone around dead center. Then without shifting your gaze, allow yourself to become aware of the whole room and describe what you see. Finally, without shifting your gaze, do you actually see an observer? Exactly where? How big is it? What color?

I did this exercise today. When I look straight ahead, I guess all I can really say that is seen without any concept, are colors and shapes. Or maybe better to say colored shapes. I don't even really see lines between things, its just different colors or shades of colors. In the zone around dead center, I would say the same, colored shapes of varying types, accept just a bit more blurred. Meaning the "difference" between the colors are blended, more gradual, less defined. When I open the focus to the whole room, it's still the same. Just colors, against colors in varying shapes and sizes. Again, less defined than what is seen dead center. Without concept, I find no observer. If there is an observer, I have no idea where it is, what it would look like, what it's size or dimensions would be, its color, or how I would even go about "seeing" it. Anything labeled an "observer", I assume would just have to be more colors and shapes, same as everything else in the field of view.

[AwayKen127]

Without concept, I find no observer. If there is an observer, I have no idea where it is, what it would look like, what it's size or dimensions would be, its color, or how I would even go about "seeing" it. Anything labeled an "observer", I assume would just have to be more colors and shapes, same as everything else in the field of view.

Great observation. If there is something with no shape or color, it's not visible. Without thoughts, can you hear, smell, or taste an "observer"? I know there are feelings. Are the feelings observing?

[RoloTomassi]

Without thoughts, can you hear, smell, or taste an "observer"? I know there are feelings. Are the feelings observing?

No, for sure I cannot hear, smell or taste an "observer". There is a sense that the feelings are being "observed", yet the feelings themselves are certainly not observing anything. They are just something else to be aware of, just like the sounds, aromas, and tastes. There is a strong sense of "something" doing the observing, but it's clear that nothing that can be observed could actually be the "observer".

[AwayKen127]

There is a strong sense of "something" doing the observing, but it's clear that nothing that can be observed could actually be the "observer".

So where do you find this "something" doing the observing? (You said it's not in any of the senses.)
ALSO, if an "observer" is necessary to make an observation, is a prior "observer" (call it the second observer) needed to observe the first observer? If so, is a third observer needed to observe the second observer?
OR, maybe there's only one "observer" that sees itself in a mirror. Can you find a mirror in experience that would enable an observer to see itself?
Spend some time looking for these things. Don't accept a thought for an answer. Either you can find it in the sense fields or not.

[RoloTomassi]

So where do you find this "something" doing the observing?

I don't find it anywhere. I just find colors, sensations, sounds, tastes, odors, whatever those are.

ALSO, if an "observer" is necessary to make an observation, is a prior "observer" (call it the second observer) needed to observe the first observer? If so, is a third observer needed to observe the second observer?

Yeah, I see it gets ridiculous trying to find something that isn't there. Without any thought, there is just what appears to the senses. Nothing can be found here that observes anything, including itself.

Can you find a mirror in experience that would enable an observer to see itself?

No, I can't find anything like that. Just more of what appears to the senses. Without thought or a story, I don't know what the hell any of this is. I mean really, even the thoughts "colors" or "sensations" are also concepts. I have no idea what these things are.