Waking up to living non dual

[Julesdickson]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
It is a platform that guides people towards living life with no boundaries. That there is no self that does any action and it is all action unfolding spontaneously without any effort on your part

What are you looking for at LU?
A guid to help me advance my practice. I feel like I’m close to this edge of living non shally but I can’t seem to break through. Like I’m standing over a net on the ocean and I’m bouncing up and down trying to get into the water and break the net but it’s woven so tightly I can’t drop down

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Literally anything that the person thinks is appropriate for my stage of insight and how to assist my evolution. I would like it to be as unbiased as possible, as my current teachers are Buddhist and have very strong traditions and ideas about who awakening is secluded to.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I’ve been intensely meditating for 3 years I’ve attended many retreats and done retreats on my own as well. I’ve had very big breakthroughs where my current reality gets completely re contextualized and I’m like a baby curious and new to the world completely in awe. Big breakthroughs have occurred through the use of psychedelics but also without them

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[poppyseed]

Hi Jules
(is that what you prefer to be called?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[Julesdickson]

“For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.”


Hi Rali, I hope this is correct and what I’m supposed to be doing. I’m ready to start/continue the inquiry.
I’m in Canada so Eastern standard time.

[Julesdickson]

“For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.”


Hi Rali, I hope this is correct and what I’m supposed to be doing. I’m ready to start/continue the inquiry.
I’m in Canada so Eastern standard time.

[poppyseed]

Hi Jules

I’m in Canada so Eastern standard time.

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we'll menage ;)

I’m ready to start/continue the inquiry.

Awesome! First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?
Please watch the video on quoting (link in my first reply). This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
Love
Rali

[Julesdickson]

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I don’t know what will be different. Maybe a bit less of the mind grabbing onto thoughts during the day and in meditation.


2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

The me will be out of the way so I can be 100% completely present with what is.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I’m not sure what I don’t want to happen. Because I think I’m happy with anything happening no matter how it manifests for me.

4. What are you hoping for?
Im hoping to awake all the time.

5. What is missing?

Being awake all of the time in a sense is what’s missing.



Please watch the video on quoting (link in my first reply). This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
Love

[poppyseed]

Hi Jules
Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations,

The me will be out of the way so I can be 100% completely present with what is.

There is a bit of a contradiction here – what is going to be out of the way and what is going to be present :). We’ll examine this closely a bit later.

Now, what comes up when is read that there is no self never has been and never will be? If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Just one more thing. When you quote select only the text (by highlighting with your mouse) that you want (not everything) and then press the “quote” function. You can see how the text is going to look like when you press the preview button. At the moment everything looks like one quote which ruins the point of quoting
Love
Rali

[Julesdickson]

Now, what comes up when is read that there is no self never has been and never will be? If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

For me right now, trying to locate an specific I is like trying to land a plane except your on a planet that doesn't have any solid ground. But im looking, really looking. I just want to make sure that this is really the case.But there doesnt seem to be a specific I.
But there is an am-ness. Like I do feel like I am. But the ego and mind and emotions definitely do not feel like some sort of solid "thing". its very obvious that its not. But the presence that just receives life feels beginingless and endless for sure.

when hearing that there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, it just feels absolutely undeniably accurate and appropriate to say. I often feel this but I wonder if maybe it is only sometimes. Maybe i embody it sometimes maybe all the time, im not sure how i would know? but i do feel lately like things witness me, like the objects are meeting me not me meeting them. and that is also arising in the other things you've stated in similar manifestations.

I looked to how I live my life daily and what my experience holds. It is aware of my mind and ego and what its up to so when i feel connected to the thinker for example in meditation or anytime really i open as best as i can to let them trail through without putting specfic projections and attachments to it. i do my best, thinking is the hardest thing my ego deals with. i'm realizing i can write a lot more maybe i'm answering to many things at once.

In summery I notice a bit more everyday that the specific "me" seems to be taking a step back. loosening her reigns on well everything.

[poppyseed]

Hi Jules
Great!
Before we begin let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:

1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what color they are.

2. You can have a look at your socks and see what color they ACTUALLY are!

You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's color, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, color(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Color (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Love
Rali

[Julesdickson]

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Hi Rali, I guess my first thought is know that it can’t actually be known. Because I feel like Apple is known but only because it was taught me that that’s what it is. So if I was just looking at it and receiving it I would know definitely certain aspects of it and the reality of it but I guess I wouldn’t know that it’s “Apple”. Just like if I saw some tropical fruit that I never seen before I would receive it in all of the sort of real Ways, tasting touching seeing sensing. But I suppose ultimately I wouldn’t know the label of it. What I mean is that I would only know the reality of experiencing it. And the same is ultimately for the Apple. Or any other objects that I have thoughts about. I don’t know if this is what would be considered an awake state but When I feel like I am awake I know without question without thinking, that everything just is. and it’s all just receiving itself and sort of unfolding in and out of itself . So I am between seeing the image and just receiving it and also mentally constructing ideas about it I guess.

[poppyseed]

Hi Jules

Just like if I saw some tropical fruit that I never seen before I would receive it in all of the sort of real Ways, tasting touching seeing sensing. But I suppose ultimately I wouldn’t know the label of it. What I mean is that I would only know the reality of experiencing it. And the same is ultimately for the Apple. Or any other objects that I have thoughts about.

OK, there is some truth in this… Yes “apple” is just a label, but what is an ‘object’? What you see hopefully in your DE - when looking at an “apple” - is a colour and a thought describing it (“apple”). The same description/label (“apple”) is used for other aspects of DE like specific tasting, smelling, and sensing (there’s no hearing with this label) that in the past have appeared together with this seeing in one combination or another. But does an inherent material object (“apple”) exist in DE with characteristics of smell, taste, colour and sensation, OR it is just the same label/description for specific DE’s that might or might not appear together (sensing, smelling, seeing and tasting happening at the same time or not)? Also, do seeing, smelling, tasting, and sensing “apple” depend on each other in some way or they just appear simultaneously (sometimes) and independently? What binds experiences and their name together? Can experiences exist without the label? Is “object” a label, or the real deal? Is the smell separate from the object (an attribute of the object)? Is there anything to be smelled, touched, heard, etc outside of the senses without thought content? Or is just smell-ING (verb) labelled “object’s SMELL”, sensing labelled “object’s FEEL”, etc. and thought content that that the object exists in the first place?
Please answer each question separately, not in bulk.

I don’t know if this is what would be considered an awake state but When I feel like I am awake I know without question without thinking, that everything just is. and it’s all just receiving itself and sort of unfolding in and out of itself . So I am between seeing the image and just receiving it and also mentally constructing ideas about it I guess.

What is the “receiver” of seeing? Is there a seer? What does it look like? What is awake and know things? Also can the seeing be separated from the seen? Where is the border that marks the distinction between ‘seeing’ and ‘seen’? What is there when you LOOK?
Love
Rali

[Julesdickson]

what is an ‘object’?

I don’t know what an object is. I’ve been sitting and doing this inquiry and I just don’t know. It’s just something that my conciseness lands on and the I distinguish it as a certain thing. An object has to be something directly experienced. Or else I guess it’s just a fantasy. Like the plastic dolphins on my wall. They just like this strange random yet perfect manifestation
of reality. I experience them by looking at them seeing there colour and shape. They are an object when I look at them.

But does an inherent material object (“apple”) exist in DE with characteristics of smell, taste, colour and sensation, OR it is just the same label/description for specific DE’s that might or might not appear together (sensing, smelling, seeing and tasting happening at the same time or not)? Also, do seeing, smelling, tasting, and sensing “apple” depend on each other in some way or they just appear simultaneously (sometimes) and independently?

Well yes I would say it’s all sort of happening together. Because when I’m looking at something I’m just receiving all of it. Let’s say I’m smelling and also seeing that Would be a wholistic experience. Both occurring together not fighting to prominent over each-other but apart of the same whole experience of the apple.

What binds experiences and their name together?

What binds experience and name together is the aspect of my consciousness that just receives unfiltered information and my mind that holds the language and knowledge of what we as humans have labeled the object.

Can experiences exist without the label?

for sure yes. It can just be met by my consciousness and fully received without any other layers of mental concept on top. I just experience whatever it is unfiltered, just raw as it is.

s “object” a label, or the real deal? Is the smell separate from the object (an attribute of the object)? Is there anything to be smelled, touched, heard, etc outside of the senses without thought content? Or is just smell-ING (verb) labelled “object’s SMELL”, sensing labelled “object’s FEEL”, etc. and thought content that that the object exists in the first place?

Thought content can be removed when experiencing objects in consciousness. They don’t need to be described or interpreted to be real. When I feel like there’s no me experiencing objects and things in consciousness they experience themselves somehow. I don’t know exactly but they just are and I’m out of the way. But I still can distinguish objects but it’s like they distinguish themselves. Not sure if that’s a contradiction, probably. I’ll keep investigating this.

What is the “receiver” of seeing?

The receiver of seeing is seeing. When I ask what’s seeing I just feel like it’s seeing.

Is there a seer? What does it look like? What is the “receiver” of seeing?

The receiver of seeing is seeing. When I ask what’s seeing I just feel like it’s seeing.The seer is just what’s seeing. It’s just whatever the moment is I guess. So it looks like I suppose whatever the moment brings

What is awake and know things?

I feel awakeness is awake. Which has formed in a consciousness that is aware of it’s awareness. But somehow I claim it. Which makes me say, I want to awaken fully. Or I’m waking up. Or I’ve had experiences where I’m fully awake. Or I feel more awake lately. It’s just like I’m more in it. In the experience of it.

Also can the seeing be separated from the seen? Where is the border that marks the distinction between ‘seeing’ and ‘seen’? What is there when you LOOK?

Oh no I do t think those things can be separated. When I try to imagine that it just seems funny or like absolutely not possible. When I look to see the distinction between seeing and seen it’s like a stick and one is the top of the stick and the other is the bottom but it’s the same stick. Like it is attached.

[poppyseed]

Hi Jules

Like the plastic dolphins on my wall. They just like this strange random yet perfect manifestation
of reality. I experience them by looking at them seeing there colour and shape. They are an object when I look at them.

Oh no I do t think those things can be separated. When I try to imagine that it just seems funny or like absolutely not possible. When I look to see the distinction between seeing and seen it’s like a stick and one is the top of the stick and the other is the bottom but it’s the same stick. Like it is attached.

When I ask what’s seeing I just feel like it’s seeing.

There seems to be a contradiction between these statements. If the seeing cannot be separated from the objects of seeing, and seer, and you say there is no seer, then why are the objects somehow existing on their own? Isn’t there just seeing /colour? Are objects outside of seeing?
Look at the picture. Everything is drawn in pencil on paper – the illusion of separation is created by different colours used – otherwise it’s all PAPER.

Different colours in seeing create the illusion of things but all that is there is seeing. Different levels of sounds create the illusion of a song but all that is there is hearing. Can you see that?

I feel awakeness is awake. Which has formed in a consciousness that is aware of it’s awareness. But somehow I claim it. Which makes me say, I want to awaken fully. Or I’m waking up. Or I’ve had experiences where I’m fully awake. Or I feel more awake lately. It’s just like I’m more in it. In the experience of it.

What binds experience and name together is the aspect of my consciousness that just receives unfiltered information and my mind that holds the language and knowledge of what we as humans have labeled the object.

for sure yes. It can just be met by my consciousness and fully received without any other layers of mental concept on top. I just experience whatever it is unfiltered, just raw as it is.

There is so many assumptions, learned knowledge (teachings, which agreed to leave behind) – generally a lot of thought content. Let examine them. What is consciousness/awareness? Is there an entity called awareness that does things (e.g., receives information)? What does it look like? Does it speak etc – how can you describe it using the five senses? Who will awaken fully -consciousness? You? What is it that will awaken because it’s not right now? What is mind? What does it look like? Are there “solid” experiences floating around in “awareness”- “arising, appearing and disappearing”? Are the experiencer/awareness, experience, and experiencing separate? Can there be awareness without objects? Can experiences exist without awareness? Now, would awareness of experiences exist without the experiences?

Focus on the feeling of am-ness/being, aliveness. Can you tell if there is a being or just being?
Is life happening to a being or as being? Please LOOK, don’t intellectualise, imagine or remember from your previous experience!
Love
Rali

[Julesdickson]

[/quote]What is consciousness/awareness? Is there an entity called awareness that does things (e.g., receives information)? What does it look like? Does it speak etc – how can you describe it using the five senses?[/quote]

consciousness is what is sensing and receiving reality as it arises. It is receiving information, reciving everything full as it presents itself. It looks like whatever shows up. And it is like hearing this song and. Well I’m listening to a song and there’s no distance between listening and the the sound. There’s just not I’m not sure what to say about that. But my awareness must be noticing that there is no distinction. So awareness is what notices.


[/quote]Who will awaken fully -consciousness? You? What is it that will awaken because it’s not right now?[/quote]

I don’t know. Because in a sense I notice that I could only ever be awake. So my conciousness is awake right now.


[/quote]What is mind?[/quote]
Mind is what is interpreting reality.


[/quote]What does it look like? Are there “solid” experiences floating around in “awareness”- “arising, appearing and disappearing”? Are the experiencer/awareness, experience, and experiencing separate?[/quote]

The only solid experience in awareness is the awareness being there so that all things of reality can be received. No the experiencer and experience are not separate.


[/quote]Can there be awareness without objects? Can experiences exist without awareness? Now, would awareness of experiences exist without the experiences?[/quote]

Yes there can be awareness without objects. No experience cannot exist without awareness, as soon as there is experience there is awareness. Awareness of experience would only exist if they there was experience occurring.

can you tell if there is a being or just being?
Is life happening to a being or as being?

When I look at direct experience there is just being. Every time I look. It is very clearly happening as being. But I thought I was a being, but my experience says otherwise right now.

[poppyseed]

Hi Jules
Please answer all my questions! They are there for a reason.

Different colours in seeing create the illusion of things but all that is there is seeing. Different levels of sounds create the illusion of a song but all that is there is hearing. Can you see that?

?

consciousness is what is sensing and receiving reality as it arises. It is receiving information, reciving everything full as it presents itself.

I’m sorry but that sounds too intellectual! How is this known? If you can’t describe what consciousness looks like what makes you think that it’s there? Is it belief? If “It looks like whatever shows up.” How is differentiated from THIS?

Yes there can be awareness without objects. No experience cannot exist without awareness, as soon as there is experience there is awareness. Awareness of experience would only exist if they there was experience occurring.

That sounds like a deduction. So if awareness can only be experienced only in the presence of experience how is the awareness without an object observed? That’s because you expect some kind of agency, like in language, where we have a subject doing an action. We have expressions like “The grass is growing,” in which the grass becomes the doer of growing. But is the grass actually growing itself or is it a whole process of exchange of nutrients on a micro level that makes cells dividing etc – “grass” growing? Thoughts/language are always out of step with reality, and they obstruct the clear seeing of how things actually are. Reality is very simple. Are there really two things there – awareness and experiences – or just WHAT IS/ wholeness/ THIS? Do you see that?
You might find this video interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lm3G0_ ... 4&index=15

Let’s try another exercise…
First, write what you are experiencing right NOW using the words “I,” “me,” and “my.” Like this:
I am sitting in a chair. I am hearing the traffic. I am typing these words. I am feeling hungry.
Do this for a full ten minutes. Watch the body. Are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing? Focus on what is happening around you rather than your thinking.
Then, for the next ten minutes, write without the words “I,” “me,” and “my.” Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs alone. Like this:
Sitting, typing, breathing, blinking. Hearing the traffic. Waiting for the next thought. Hearing birds singing.
Again, watch what is happening in the body. Don’t just rewrite what you wrote in the first part, but describe what arises as it arises.
Now compare the two ways of labelling the experience. Is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it? How did the body react? Which way of describing felt more natural, more relaxing?
Love
Rali